Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[burmjohn]

I think we already have manipulation with hybrid food plots and mineral supplement blocks.. even by those that are against AR. And although there are those that claim the food plots aren't being used that way.. we all know better. As for having 120, 130, 140 class bucks, thats the way it's suppose to be..every other animal has natural age class structure in both male and female.. except the whitetail deer in NY. Lets just say we hunted bald eagles the way we hunt whitetails in NY... you'd never see one with a white head...because very few would grow to maturity. The fact that NY hunters won't allow for a reresentative age structure in whitetail bucks is all about hunters only caring about themselves not the deer.

These guys will spin what you said trust me.  They are going to say "You just want to make it easier for you", "Big bucks are not supposed to be easy to get", "Yada Yada"

In my case, big bucks ARE there to get now, where before they were NOT.  I'm in a AR zone, I did NOT bag a buck this year let alone a big buck.  I saw a few nice sized bucks though, and that's enough to show me that AR is working.  Now there is next year, and I can't wait. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I think we already have manipulation with hybrid food plots and mineral supplement blocks.. even by those that are against AR. And although there are those that claim the food plots aren't being used that way.. we all know better. As for having 120, 130, 140 class bucks, thats the way it's suppose to be..every other animal has natural age class structure in both male and female.. except the whitetail deer in NY. Lets just say we hunted bald eagles the way we hunt whitetails in NY... you'd never see one with a white head...because very few would grow to maturity. The fact that NY hunters won't allow for a reresentative age structure in whitetail bucks is all about hunters only caring about themselves not the deer.

These guys will spin what you said trust me.  They are going to say "You just want to make it easier for you", "Big bucks are not supposed to be easy to get", "Yada Yada"

In my case, big bucks ARE there to get now, where before they were NOT.  I'm in a AR zone, I did NOT bag a buck this year let alone a big buck.  I saw a few nice sized bucks though, and that's enough to show me that AR is working.  Now there is next year, and I can't wait.

I realy don't think they should be that easy to get. The point I was trying to make was this. If we walked out every year and took a 140, how long would it be before that standard didn't "do it" for us anymore. I was questioning what is the ceiling? how far are will willing to push this and at what cost? Do we set a standard of 150 and that is the AR? Do we manipulate our herd genetically so we get bigger bucks? DO we risk losing hunters if we do anything? I don't know the answers, but am scared no one else really does either. I gues my one big question I pose to you guys is how far is far enough?

[William Kisenwether]

being a lifetime pa hunter 40+ years the ar works what doesn't work is game commission killing all the does with excesss tags. button bucks don't come out of another buck. you need the does!

[G-Man]

I don't see a need to have mandated ar's by the state. I can make my own decision on what i wish to shoot. Yes i expect to hear well if i pass it up the neighbor down the road will shoot it..maybe maybe not.. I feel iif a person is happy with what they shoot so be it. I am sick of people screaming for ar's or wanting to start some qdm group with 8 points outside it's ears minimum ..only to see that person or persons involved killin 6pts forks spikes and continuing to hear them call for ar's. I starts with you!!! Look yearlings are inexperianced or dumb if you will. A two year old is two because its learned to aviod hunters a mature 3 ,4, or 5 plus are even smarter!!! there are big deer out there on public/private land but the average hunter is not going to see them or maybe not even know that they exist hunting 2-3 days a year! You don't believe me.. take a month and hunt everyday i will bet you will see more deer than you think are there! Hunting will never (at least i hope it never comes to) be go out see every 120 plus buck in the woods just strolling along and you pick the one you want and shoot it! If you insist that there are no big deer in your area....find another place to hunt!! almost 1/4 of the state is public land and most hunters only go less than 1/2 mile from a road. What you mean make you work to get your trophy!!! Yes and along the way enjoy the comrodery,friendships, sight and sounds of a true hunting experiance!! For those of you that think there will be a big buck around every tree if we have ar's.. ask yourself this..would you hunt deer if they didn't have horns at all ...if you wouldn't maybe your hunting for the  wrong reasons..

[nyantler]

hunters have to stop thinking of AR as just a means to get big bucks to kill.. if you think about it as bettering the age structure it makes more sense..

[Culvercreek hunt club]

hunters have to stop thinking of AR as just a means to get big bucks to kill.. if you think about it as bettering the age structure it makes more sense..

Maybe the problem a lot hae with a "program" like that,Joe. is less the program itself but more with the salesmanship for it. The proponents sure seem to take an agressive holier than thou approch in many cases. That turn off would affect alot of people if you were trying to give them something for free....lol.

[nyantler]

Ain't that the truth???

[G-Man]

I agree, we need to find a way (and have to understand it may take awhile) to make the average hunter want to sign up if you will. unfortunatly the tv shows make everyone want instant results!! the ar's work to a point in pa as now years have passed and the general population of hunters are enjoying sucess. Unfortunatly for pa lot of hunters backlash of being told what to do create poor gov and civilian relations and animosity toward other hunters landowers.... wish i had a majic lamp to rub and be given a program to solve this easily....

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree, we need to find a way (and have to understand it may take awhile) to make the average hunter want to sign up if you will. unfortunatly the tv shows make everyone want instant results!! the ar's work to a point in pa as now years have passed and the general population of hunters are enjoying sucess. Unfortunatly for pa lot of hunters backlash of being told what to do create poor gov and civilian relations and animosity toward other hunters landowers.... wish i had a majic lamp to rub and be given a program to solve this easily....

I think the thing that pushed me over the line for mature deer aout 5 years ago was trailcams. Just like you said G-man. I started seeing what was out there and really wanted my tag on one of those. I think this year may have converted 2 buddies of mine as well. they got to see more big bucks this year between the cameras and scouting than they had ever seen in their lives combined. THey know what is out there and a very excited about taking one. The one benefit we do have in my area is a very liberal doe permit quota. I think it is harder to convince  someone it is better to wait it a buck is the only option he has to take a deer.

[G-Man]

Cam's have helped change the minds of almost all the guys i hunt with at my camp. I had one "non-believer" who only hunted opening day for years, convinced him to hunt a week at camp. he did and was rewarded with his best buck a 2year old 8pt that he proudly had mounted. he now hunts a week and is content taking a doe for meat while waiting for his next biggest buck!

[nyantler]

For me it is more about the challenge.. I personally don't see the challenge in smaller bucks.. In 15 years I have passed on just over 100 small bucks.. my best year being 18... in fact i passed on 4 in one day during the 2010 muzzleloader season. I cannot say the same for bigger bucks... they are much harder work and for me a greater satisfaction when I kill one. It's not about trophy hunting for me because i don't hang them all on the wall (although most hunters would)... I get a real kick out of tracking or stalking a big buck and finally catching up to him and killing him. I walk up on small bucks by accident all the time while on the track of a bigger bucks. I admit the young ones are still neat to see, but too easy to kill in my opinion.

[G-Man]

Joe i agree with you,for me its the scouting and setting up on an older buck i enjoy the most! I am just as happy if i get it or one of my friends gets it out of my set up! I know i did the hard part right!

[Grizz1219]

All for it.. want meat.. shoot a doe...

[bubba]

that is fine if you get a dmp

[TheHunter]

hard work kills bucks...and self control by NYs hunters would reduce the amount of work expended to bag them.

So that is the basis for your opinions....you want it EASY? Kind of takes away the special nature of bagging a great buck ....doesn't it? Where does it stop....if everyone could go out and kill a 120 buck....then a 140...then 160...what next...genetic manipulation to grow bigger racks?

Its not about being easy.  If you read what people said that are pro AR, they are speaking for their area's where larger bucks are nearly non-existant.  It's about giving the deer a chance to survive and grow older.... Is every 2.5 going to live to 4+, absolutely not... Is every 1.5 covered by AR, nope...  Is it better then nothing, absolutely...

[Doc]

I realy don't think they should be that easy to get. The point I was trying to make was this. If we walked out every year and took a 140, how long would it be before that standard didn't "do it" for us anymore. I was questioning what is the ceiling? how far are will willing to push this and at what cost? Do we set a standard of 150 and that is the AR? Do we manipulate our herd genetically so we get bigger bucks? DO we risk losing hunters if we do anything? I don't know the answers, but am scared no one else really does either. I gues my one big question I pose to you guys is how far is far enough?

I was watching a hunting program the other day where the host was talking about how it is absolutely necessary to pass on those 2-1/2 and 3-1/2 year old bucks if you are ever going to get a decent buck worth harvesting. So the answer to your question is there apparently is no such thing as "far enough" ....... lol.

[nyantler]

Yeah Doc.. that is what I call the "Realtree Mentality of South Texas" If we all got free trips to Texas where they basically farm whitetails, you would want to pass up 2.5 and 3.5 because there are numerous bucks there that are much older... such is not the case anywhere in NY. Those ranches are privately own, giant pieces of land that have sell hunts... although most in the TV hunting community consider it fair chase... I believe most of us would see it much differently.

Although the concept works well for creating monster bucks and definitely great for age structure.. I think it leaves a bit to be desired when it comes to a natural way of managing whitetails and maintaining a true sense of fair chase.. I think this is where the opponents of AR have gotten the idea that all of us proponents are just trophy hunters.

Again thats just my opinion... by the way... south texas has become the most popular place for TV hunting shows over the last ten years... I wonder why?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

hard work kills bucks...and self control by NYs hunters would reduce the amount of work expended to bag them.

So that is the basis for your opinions....you want it EASY? Kind of takes away the special nature of bagging a great buck ....doesn't it? Where does it stop....if everyone could go out and kill a 120 buck....then a 140...then 160...what next...genetic manipulation to grow bigger racks?

Its not about being easy.  If you read what people said that are pro AR, they are speaking for their area's where larger bucks are nearly non-existant.  It's about giving the deer a chance to survive and grow older.... Is every 2.5 going to live to 4+, absolutely not... Is every 1.5 covered by AR, nope...  Is it better then nothing, absolutely...

Not to get it stirred back up with you Thehunter....but the topic was not WMU specific. GJS4 was commenting on NYs hunters and that would mean statewide...not hunters in 3whatever. There are areas of the state that can not/do not support a doe permit issuance. It may have improved some areas but it is NOT a progran that will fit across teh entire state.  I don't think they can get a one size fits all because the state varies so much

[Grizz1219]

I would just like to see more 2.5 year olds in the herd.. I think by lowering the number of 1.5 and younger being taken... it will improve the buck doe ratio making hunting the rut more intense and more fun to be out there... Plus who doesn't have the "bucket of spikes to 4 points" sitting in their shed.. My thinking is, shoot a doe over the small buck.. lets see what happens in a few years and adjust from there... Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.. Lets try something new and see where it leads us...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I would just like to see more 2.5 year olds in the herd.. I think by lowering the number of 1.5 and younger being taken... it will improve the buck doe ratio making hunting the rut more intense and more fun to be out there... Plus who doesn't have the "bucket of spikes to 4 points" sitting in their shed.. My thinking is, shoot a doe over the small buck.. lets see what happens in a few years and adjust from there... Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.. Lets try something new and see where it leads us...

What do you say to our hunting brothers in the Daks that don't have permits?

[SteveB]

I would just like to see more 2.5 year olds in the herd.. I think by lowering the number of 1.5 and younger being taken... it will improve the buck doe ratio making hunting the rut more intense and more fun to be out there... Plus who doesn't have the "bucket of spikes to 4 points" sitting in their shed.. My thinking is, shoot a doe over the small buck.. lets see what happens in a few years and adjust from there... Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.. Lets try something new and see where it leads us...

What do you say to our hunting brothers in the Daks that don't have permits?

40% of the wmu's have no or low chance of getting a doe permit.

Make's "just shoot a doe" tough to do.

[nyantler]

Most of us that hunt bigger bucks.. really would rather go without a deer than shoot something less than we are after... none of the guys I know that track in the adirondacks even care about meat hunting .. although they all love the meat. It's all about the thrill of the hunt for us.. I love venison but don't need it to survive..I try to always take a doe in the south with my muzzleloader to donate to the venison drive. Guys get too rapped up in the I have to take a deer every year mentality.. and I hear a lot of complaining from those guys about not seeing deer.. If you look anywhere on this forum you won't see one post from me complaining about the lack of deer movement, deer sightings, deer taken ever... because those are not factors that effect my deer hunting. I will be satisfied if there is only one big buck left in NY that I can hunt..

[bubba]

this eif us who hunt where most of the time you have to take a buck dont count in the wisdom of the state after all we are from one horse towns and dont matter. As I recall, when the question was asked way back do you get 2 bow muzzle tags for archery, I was the only one who said no I get both for ml season. Most years, that is the only chance I get to take a doe. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Most of us that hunt bigger bucks.. really would rather go without a deer than shoot something less than we are after... none of the guys I know that track in the adirondacks even care about meat hunting .. although they all love the meat. It's all about the thrill of the hunt for us.. I love venison but don't need it to survive..I try to always take a doe in the south with my muzzleloader to donate to the venison drive. Guys get too rapped up in the I have to take a deer every year mentality.. and I hear a lot of complaining from those guys about not seeing deer.. If you look anywhere on this forum you won't see one post from me complaining about the lack of deer movement, deer sightings, deer taken ever... because those are not factors that effect my deer hunting. I will be satisfied if there is only one big buck left in NY that I can hunt..

Consider yourself fortunate Joe. I nkow families that really do depend on the venison to help them out. THey aren't guys with fancy gadgets or fancy guns....just money for tags and take them for food on the table. Still pretty cheap meat if you take all the frills out of the sport. Or it can be crazy expensive meat the way some go at it...me included. I know since you hunt up north you have seen what I mean. Not to songle out up north it is all around the state but at least the guys in most of the SZ have a shot at some doe tags. Tough call...I dont know how to apply it across the board without hurting some

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Hence 3 different seasons with 3 tags that are either sex tags!!! Split the seasons up some.Guys want meat take a doe or buck and go home and wait till the next round to start!!!