A sad day for New York hunters

[Culvercreek hunt club]

NFA---Are you off your meds again? LOL

Edited September 4, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Doewhacker]

Think I will join another bow hunter group. At least they seem to care about the animals, instead of saying I just need to fill my freezer... Yea, As a matter of fact I am going to try and make AR a state wide development. Yep. May be you should just move out of state...

NFA GETSOME

You should save your money and not buy a tag, not like you kill anything anyways so whats the sense?

Leave the hunting and killing to us hunters.

[Skillet]

..............And your rebuttal, NFA?

[Warren]

Going back to the original post; I said I was 100% in agreement but I want to revise that to about 80% of what was posted.

I will break down some of the comments made --

(1)The advocates for AR have put a limit on others opportunities. The AR people think they are TV hunters , they think they are great hunters and tough luck to others who only want to deer hunt and harvest a deer.

--TRUE

(2) The hunting camp I belong to has 35 members with a doz. out of state hunters and we are lucky to see a deer, let alone a legal buck.

--Most likely TRUE

(3) I have heard that some of the out of state hunters are giving up hunting in NY because of AR Most are saying it cost to much to sit in the woods knowing they will not see a legal buck and with no doe tags to boot, they are going to look else where.

--Seems TRUE

(4)Thankyou advocates of AR ,you have gotten what you wanted by having fewer deer hunters in the woods so you can have the deer to yourselfs.

--FALSE no one belives this one.

(5) An other sad thing about AR is it is not good deer management and that is fact.

--The jury is out on this one but I feel this one might be true.

(6) Another group of selfish greedy so called deer hunters are the NY Bowhunters coalition. They cry about everything. They don't want anyone in the woods in their season. They cried that the bow wasn't long enough, so NY gave them another two weeks etc,etc,etc

--Wording is childish but seems like DEC has buckled to their pressure.

Conclusion;

Too many NY hunters have watched too many Outdoor t.v. channel deer hunting shows and are fooled into thinking you are not a deer hunter unless you shoot a mature trophy buck.

AR might let some young bucks escape the first hunting season only to allow it to run in front of a car one of our family members is driving.

We need to control the deer population not the bucks antler size.

[NFA-ADK]

..............And your rebuttal, NFA?

Just because I pass a bunch of deer every year and do not decied to pull the trigger on a single one is my option... Simple enough...

While I do no see that many up north, in the southern zone you kinda have to be a idiot not to get a deer... Or just suck at hunting... Again you seem to think killing deer makes you a great hunter, so be it...

[NFA-ADK]

PS: I type fast and could care less about my spelling...

[NFA-ADK]

Going back to the original post; I said I was 100% in agreement but I want to revise that to about 80% of what was posted.

I will break down some of the comments made --

(1)The advocates for AR have put a limit on others opportunities. The AR people think they are TV hunters , they think they are great hunters and tough luck to others who only want to deer hunt and harvest a deer.

--TRUE

(2) The hunting camp I belong to has 35 members with a doz. out of state hunters and we are lucky to see a deer, let alone a legal buck.

--Most likely TRUE

(3) I have heard that some of the out of state hunters are giving up hunting in NY because of AR Most are saying it cost to much to sit in the woods knowing they will not see a legal buck and with no doe tags to boot, they are going to look else where.

--Seems TRUE

(4)Thankyou advocates of AR ,you have gotten what you wanted by having fewer deer hunters in the woods so you can have the deer to yourselfs.

--FALSE no one belives this one.

(5) An other sad thing about AR is it is not good deer management and that is fact.

--The jury is out on this one but I feel this one might be true.

(6) Another group of selfish greedy so called deer hunters are the NY Bowhunters coalition. They cry about everything. They don't want anyone in the woods in their season. They cried that the bow wasn't long enough, so NY gave them another two weeks etc,etc,etc

--Wording is childish but seems like DEC has buckled to their pressure.

Conclusion;

Too many NY hunters have watched too many Outdoor t.v. channel deer hunting shows and are fooled into thinking you are not a deer hunter unless you shoot a mature trophy buck.

AR might let some young bucks escape the first hunting season only to allow it to run in front of a car one of our family members is driving.

We need to control the deer population not the bucks antler size.

1) FALSE just because someone believes in AR and that it would help the herd doe not make them think they are a ELITE hunter... That is your narrow oppinion and you are entitled to it...

2) So you do not see many deer on you property while hunting...

3) Did not know it cost more to not get a deer than to get one. But you are right some will stop hunting because of AR...

4) I am glad you said that and not me or Doe and skillet will hurl more insults...

5) If it is proven this is a fact so be it... AR has not been proven one way or another... I understand population control and advocate it, just don't let anyone know, shhhh.

6) Yes the bow hunters complained about trampling on thier time in the woods. How would you feel if NYS made it only 2 weeks for hunting. 1 for bow and 1 for rifle. Tell me you would not complain. Well guese what they did...

Again it's always seems ok if it benifits you as a hunter, but take away a opportunity to kill something and all hell breaks loose. Do AR's really work, I am not sure but I let most deer pass anyway so these restrictions do not affect me...

PS: I do not watch much TV, hunting shows included... Just because some one cares about having a mature herd and likes the idea of AR does not make me think I am a ELITE hunter... Just one who likes hunting adult deer...

[Larry]

Hey NFA-ADK like you I choose to let a lot of deer walk that’s the choice we have made. The difference between you and I is I believe the other guy should have the same right to choose as I do. You and I don’t have the right to tell anyone they can’t choose to shoot a small buck whether we like it or not. Then if we don’t like the choice they made go and try to change the rules so they have choose are way

I DON’T CARE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE SHOOTS I ONLY CARE WHAT I SHOT!

[NFA-ADK]

Hey Jackass it would be quit not quite. You are indeed a moron and have proven so many times on this forum, especially with some of your "advice" you give. I suggest you stick to playing northwoods hunter once or twice a year and stay down there the rest of the year.

So then why did you shoot a 4 four pointer that you referenced in another thread?

1) Sorry I fixed my error before you posted... You talk like I do something differant... Just because I only go up 3 times a year or so makes me a bad person in your eyes, so be it... Show me all the bad advice I give people here... It's just advice on experiences, take it for what it is... Not everyone has the same experiences so dif people will have dif advice... Guese just because you caught a few spelling errors and do not like the fact that I am for AR and think my advice sucks just because I do not live upstate and only get to hunt 3 weeks a year make me a jackass and a moron, OK fine.

2)Yes I shot a 4pt Buck. My 2nd buck, I though he was a 6 and can not explain how upset I was. I passed him 45 min before but I am sure you will doubt this. As I am sure you doubt my rejection at taking this animal. After some deep though I changed my attitude about my harvest and enjoyed eating him that night. I am sure you prob think this is all BS and so be it...

I hunt for adult bucks. I get to do this few times a year and can not explain how precious it is to me. I have fought over the fact that I do go for adult bucks with friends for hours over it's justification. "You are a trophy hunter" I am told... May be so but I can't help it... I never claimed to be a great or elite hunter, just knowlegable in certian area's with experience. Your everday "Joe hunter" who is passionate about hunting adult bucks.

If you both still think that way of me fine, so be it... Let me know.

[Renegade]

Hey NFA-ADK like you I choose to let a lot of deer walk that’s the choice we have made. The difference between you and I is I believe the other guy should have the same right to choose as I do. You and I don’t have the right to tell anyone they can’t choose to shoot a small buck whether we like it or not. Then if we don’t like the choice they made go and try to change the rules so they have choose are way

I DON’T CARE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE SHOOTS I ONLY CARE WHAT I SHOT!

Well said, Larry

[skyhunter]

Elitism sucks. seems some bad spellers fall into that group. the others are just damn selfish.

[ryanrobb52]

If you want to hunt bigger bucks and practice AR to grow em bigger than buy your own land and have at it. Thats what I did. Cant afford it, then start a hunting club with others that want the same out of hunting as you do and buy a piece together. Seems like a better way to spend your money.

[rutstrut]

Boy alot of complaining , let me put my two cents into this.first cross bow hunters deserve to hunt just like everyone else( i hunt with a compound).Second antler restrictions should be implemented in all zones. if hunters start harvesting mature bucks you will see alot more hunters coming out.I hunt in a zone that doesn't have antler restrictions, but i still hunt and pass up many young bucks. it doesnt make me quit. stop complaining and get out there and enjoy wildlife.antler restrictions work.been doing it for ten years. i see more deer now than when i purchased the property.try it you might like it

[SteveB]

My 2nd buck, I though he was a 6 and can not explain how upset I was.

So if he was a 1.5 6pt (or even a 2.5 - still not the "adults you hunt) instead of a 4pt it would have been better?

[Larry]

i'm going to reprint something for rutstrut what i think of qdm

Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Larry

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Why would anyone want to shoot a buck with less than 3pts on a side anyways? You cant eat the horns anyways remember. Shoot a doe for the freezer. Help the age class and help the herd!!

[SteveB]

Why would anyone want to shoot a buck with less than 3pts on a side anyways? You cant eat the horns anyways remember. Shoot a doe for the freezer. Help the age class and help the herd!!

3pts, 1pt, 4pts/per side - what is the difference if they are all 1.5's?

[martinhunter12]

IMO , I agree with antler restriction, it lets more deer that are 1.5's live, making a better buck to doe ratio. I just dont see why you would rather shoot a small buck, rather than a doe..... same amount of meat, and by letting those smaller bucks go we are getting more bucks in the heard making it more fun to hunt!

Last year i hunted in the cny & northern ADK region, and i hunted a lot, i saw 2 bucks the whole year.... 2! & I saw over 40 does or easily more, and you're telling me we shouldn't have AR ? Please we need everyone to shoot does every year and let the 1.5's go! Making it a more fun hunting expierience, because everyone knows how fun it would be to see a buck almost everytime you're in the woods.

We need to kill more does is what needs to happen!

[Doc]

Some more jibberish from someone who didn't even read the bloody report. Why the hell does the DEC call AR's a social issue then? So the rest of us have to abide by hunting laws created because some hunters have "social issue" concerns with shooting a buck less than 3 points to a side?? Talk about a crock. Maybe you should stop and study who the real whiners are with this issue.

Look, I've been listening to the "real whiners" for a few years on here. It's always those that refuse to put their money and effort where their mouth is. It is those that do not have the courage of their convictions to get involved in even the most basic ways. I am not an AR guy, but I definitely will stand up for those who have the where-with-all to climb out of their armchairs and go out and get organized, or pay their dues and offer support to those that advocate for their activities, and by the way have to suffer all the stone throwing from the peanut gallery that feels comfortable simply sitting back and whining.

I am not saying that on every issue where you may have a disagreement you need to jump right up and create an organization. But I will say that when the opinions move beyond just a casual disagreement and start with the over-the-edge doom and gloom statements and the hate-speak, I would think you and others might be moved to take some action. I mean to listen to some of the comments here you would think the world is coming to an end. Wouldn't you think that with all this hatred of AR, and all the predictions of it ending hunting as we know it, somebody by now would have conjured up an anti-AR organization to push those views forward? Don't you find that strange? This isn't exactly a new issue you know. From the venom in some of these replies, you would think that more would be done than just some thread in a forum.

[Uncle Nicky]

Why would anyone want to shoot a buck with less than 3pts on a side anyways? You cant eat the horns anyways remember. Shoot a doe for the freezer. Help the age class and help the herd!!

I used to believe this, until I saw what happens when too many doe tags are given away. Blasting all the does only helps the herd if there is insufficient food to support the local deer population. Unless, of course, the goal is to grow TV-size bucks.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Uncle Nicky

[Doewhacker]

"Look, I've been listening to the "real whiners" for a few years on here. It's always those that refuse to put their money and effort where their mouth is. It is those that do not have the courage of their convictions to get involved in even the most basic ways."

So let me get this straight, people can't voice their opinion unless they are "organized"? If you don't want to hear it, don't open the thread, pretty simple. Are Steve863 and I allowed to have an opinion because we have sent our letters.

And why are most of us ok with politic's making laws reguarding hunting these days? Has to be the worst thing out there for hunting.

[Doewhacker]

Why would anyone want to shoot a buck with less than 3pts on a side anyways? You cant eat the horns anyways remember. Shoot a doe for the freezer. Help the age class and help the herd!!

For the onehundreth time, not all areas hand out doe permits making shooting a doe instead impossible.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Boy alot of complaining , let me put my two cents into this.first cross bow hunters deserve to hunt just like everyone else( i hunt with a compound).Second antler restrictions should be implemented in all zones. if hunters start harvesting mature bucks you will see alot more hunters coming out.I hunt in a zone that doesn't have antler restrictions, but i still hunt and pass up many young bucks. it doesnt make me quit. stop complaining and get out there and enjoy wildlife.antler restrictions work.been doing it for ten years. i see more deer now than when i purchased the property.try it you might like it

Why would anyone want to shoot a buck with less than 3pts on a side anyways? You cant eat the horns anyways remember. Shoot a doe for the freezer. Help the age class and help the herd!!

The reall problem I have with you guys that try to push this state wide is you get locked into your own little world. The freaking states out west that everyone of you seem to want NY to be just like don't even come close to the varied habitat that NY has. IT CAN"T BE A BLANKET concept here. We have areas wit low populations of deer that they are not issuing doe permits in. DO we really want to say you get no doe permit and screw you ...you can't shoot a buck of your choice as well? Really? I won'der why some hunters can't be brought on board to a management system like that. Unfreaking believable.

[Doewhacker]

While I do no see that many up north, in the southern zone you kinda have to be a idiot not to get a deer... Or just suck at hunting...

Wow, Do you even realize how many hunters you just put down with that statement?

[Doc]

"Look, I've been listening to the "real whiners" for a few years on here. It's always those that refuse to put their money and effort where their mouth is. It is those that do not have the courage of their convictions to get involved in even the most basic ways."

So let me get this straight, people can't voice their opinion unless they are "organized"? If you don't want to hear it, don't open the thread, pretty simple. Are Steve863 and I allowed to have an opinion because we have sent our letters.

And why are most of us ok with politic's making laws reguarding hunting these days? Has to be the worst thing out there for hunting.

I'm saying that when people start with the hate-talk over these subjects and start acting like it is the most important subject in their lives, they suffer a hell of a credibility problem when talk is all they do. At some point you would think they would realize that they really aren't changing anyone's mind and move on to more credible ways of making a difference.

As far as the letters are concerned, that's a great way to support your position (for those few that actually do that). Attending DEC meetings is another. But what % actually do that. Pretty darn small from what I have seen. Unfortunately, those efforts seldom trump the support of those organizations that have the lobbying infrastructure and who already have the ear (in an official way) of the legislators and the DEC. Yes, if you are lucky enough to get some sort of landslide grassroots letter campaign going, you may be able to overpower the established advocacy groups .... may be able. Letter writing campaigns do on rare occasions actually work. It's just not as reliable as an organized approach. And by the way, letter writing campaigns are another tool of organizations. But then as we have heard from Steve, letter campaigns are corrupt and apparently cannot be trusted .... lol.

As far as the politics of game management, I think you've got your work cut out for you if you want that changed. I'm not even sure it is a real great idea to lock public opinion completely out of the mix. After all it does give the whiners their only avenue of recourse weak though it is. But if that is a goal, you have a long way to go because politics is interlaced with the whole system and runs all the way up to the governors appointment of the DEC commissioner.