Who wants Yearling Buck Protection with ARs in their area?

[JFB]

Man, we made Kip Adams drive 90 miles for nothing... We've got Joseph here to tell us what Kip said and spin it just to try and get a dig in. Obviously QDM's own statement is not currently supporting mandatory restrictions. But they do support passing up 1.5 yearling bucks and I'm fairly sure they want to see more mature deer in the herd. I too simply want more mature deer and whatever method helps that I support. I've said it before but I don't think AR's are the best answer but something needs to change if you want a different herd and NY seems to currently have the worst of all regulations. But if you were listening you'd have to admit Kip did not say AR's were useless in 5 years. He was actually speaking about the success and popularity PA has had with AR's and it seemed pretty clear to me that he said AR's would not be needed in the future IF more and more people voluntarily pass up young deer. Education is a smarter way to evolve NY's deer hunters and I think if QDM successfully makes hunters smarter, they will find themselves passing up young deer. Sounds good to me.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

JFB. That is exactly why our The Greater Rochester and Souther Tier Chapter is making it a main focus to bring educational events like Kip's talk to the area. We are tryign to recruit members and rasie some funds to sponsor these events. Since the Chapter has only been around since our first meeting in October of 2012 and we already have over 200 that have signed up for at least information updates and Kip's event drew 120, I think it shows there is an interest in this area of the State to see the age structure of the herd inprove.

By the wy, Thanks for coming.

[nyantler]

I'm all for voluntary yearling buck protection over manditory AR's... unfortunately if we wait for voluntary passing on small bucks... us and our kids won't live long enough to see a more mature and age balanced buck herd... especially when the DEC's position is based on population control in a habitat...not herd balance. I guess it's all about what hunters really want here in NY..only the future will tell.

[Meat Hunter]

QDMA Absolute supports Mandatory Antler Restrictions nationwide provided they are supported and properly set to protect yearling bucks. In NY the majority of NY hunters support yearling buck protection with antler restrictions.

IN NY yearling buck protection is put forth by local sportsmen not QDMA

Do Antler Restrictions Work? « Hudson Valley QDMA

www.hvqdma.com/do-antler-restrictions-really-work/

Apr 16, 2010 – On a nationwide scale, QDMA has and will support antler restriction programs if three specific and important criteria are met by the proponents ...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The Hudson Valley chapter was squarely behind Mandatory AR.

Nationals statement is not so concrete.

"Some hunters love them, others hate them, but you can rest assured all have an opinion of them – we’re talking about mandatory antler restrictions.

Antler restrictions do not equal “Quality Deer Management.” Rather, antler restrictions are a strategy to protect a specific age class (generally 1½-year-old bucks) or classes of bucks, and protecting young bucks is only one of several important features of Quality Deer Management. Many antler restrictions have been employed including point, spread, and beam-length requirements as well as Boone & Crockett score. All restrictions have advantages and disadvantages.

In general, QDMA prefers the voluntary passing of yearling bucks to mandatory antler regulations. However, we recognize that antler restrictions may be justified in some situations to achieve specific deer management objectives. Regarding our position on specific antler restriction proposals, QDMA examines each on a case-by-case basis and applies a three-part test."

The GRST-QDMA is no supporting mandatory AR and is striving to take the route of education. If they ever change their position I will no longer be involved.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[phade]

QDMA Absolute supports Mandatory Antler Restrictions nationwide provided they are supported and properly set to protect yearling bucks. In NY the majority of NY hunters support yearling buck protection with antler restrictions.

IN NY yearling buck protection is put forth by local sportsmen not QDMA

Do Antler Restrictions Work? « Hudson Valley QDMA

www.hvqdma.com/do-antler-restrictions-really-work/

Apr 16, 2010 – On a nationwide scale, QDMA has and will support antler restriction programs if three specific and important criteria are met by the proponents ...

Did you join the local QDMA chapter? Are you a member of the QDMA?

I get a sense you throw spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks.

[nyantler]

Good post Culver... AR's are only a small portion of QDM... but still a very important factor when the goal is a "quality" management program. NY seems to be content on it's herd just "getting by"... ie. minimal deer conservation efforts to control populations among habitats... not the same as optimal herd management... if "getting by" is the goal, then there is nothing more to talk about concerning AR's in NY.

[phade]

Good post Culver... AR's are only a small portion of QDM... but still a very important factor when the goal is a "quality" management program. NY seems to be content on it's herd just "getting by"... ie. minimal deer conservation efforts to control populations among habitats... not the same as optimal herd management... if "getting by" is the goal, then there is nothing more to talk about concerning AR's in NY.

Let me pose this, then. If AR is so important to QDM, why do you hardly ever see a points-based restriction on a private management plan? Outside of Texas/high fence, generally, people go by age instead. I've never been to a managed property where the "quality" intention was spurred by AR.

Surely, big difference between the masses and private. But the premise remains, it's not the tool most people opt for. So, if quality really is the goal from a government perspective (hypothetically in our state's case), then AR isn't the answer, even en masse.

Edited January 24, 2013 by phade

[josephmrtn]

i would rather have AR's than age limits!!!! its WAY easier to tell how big a bucks rack is than to judge if its 1.5 or 2........ i gotta admit tho Kip taught some pretty neat tricks for telling age...

[Five Seasons]

seems ARs aren't working in NYS

[phade]

i would rather have AR's than age limits!!!! its WAY easier to tell how big a bucks rack is than to judge if its 1.5 or 2........ i gotta admit tho Kip taught some pretty neat tricks for telling age...

I would rather have freedom of choice.

I don't care how big a buck's rack really is, truthfully, unless it's record portions. If I kill a 3.5...I kill a fairly wise buck in NY. If I kill a 4.5+...then I hit a home run. If I kill a 1.5 6 point, all I have done is kill a dink. If I kill a 1.5 8 point, all I have done is kill a dink. If I kill a spike, I have killed a dink. Again, that's personal.

Thus, I would rather have freedom of choice.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Phade, but the nice thing about where we are is that there really is a very good possibility to take a 3.5 year old or older. In our area the AR's in use in the SE part of the state would do very little to get a lot of those 1.5's through. I saw more 6 and 8 point 1.5's this year than I did spikes and 4's.

[phade]

seems ARs aren't working in NYS

Belo - you should know to really look into the numbers. The one box about % change of 2.5 take...that's the one you REALLY want to pay attention to as it mitigates macro changes to a degree.

Hunters are 2.089 times as likely to take a 2.5 or greater in the non-AR zone. Hunters in the AR zone are 2.1 times likely to take a 2.5 or greater. This is in comparison to the starting point. In science, that's a dead heat.

[zoschag08]

Correct, PA has no antler restrictions for hunters under the age of 15. Some sections of PA have AR of 4 points per side, some have 3 depending on herd density/genetics/habitat/etc. I'm not positive but I think military and senior citizens don't have AR implemented on them either.

I would never vote for ARs for youth. Doesn't PA have this or something similar in place?

[phade]

Phade, but the nice thing about where we are is that there really is a very good possibility to take a 3.5 year old or older. In our area the AR's in use in the SE part of the state would do very little to get a lot of those 1.5's through. I saw more 6 and 8 point 1.5's this year than I did spikes and 4's.

No doubt, that would require a 4 a side rule here to be effective in terms of advancing the 1.5s. I think that is downright crazy.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

No doubt, that would require a 4 a side rule here to be effective in terms of advancing the 1.5s. I think that is downright crazy.

I agree and that was one reason we had our first seminar on the aging on the hoof. It is not an easy science but identifying a 1.5 with a decent 8 point rack is fairly easy. Those would be the marginal passes...lol. Not many of those 3.5 year spikes running around. My one friend shot a slob six point this year and he took it because it showed up on camera many times and was a huge bodied deer. The rack was thick but not all that impressive. 4.5 year old and dressed at 203 pounds. Identifying the body size/characteristics is much more benificial.

As I said identifying a 1.5 year old is not all that tough and if we had hunters CHOOSE to let them go, we would see an increase in the age overall.

But as you i need it to be choice.

[SteveB]

Why pass 1.5 only to target 2.5?'s

Still killing immature bucks and that's what ar would do in central/western NY.

[Meat Hunter]

Here is the QDMA rule on AR support- it is three points all of which are in met in NY. The guy above left this out. Here is the link to national QDMA http://www.qdma.com/articles/qdmas-position-on-mandatory-antler-restrictions

AND these are the three points for support.

First, is the restriction biologically sound? This means the proposed restriction will protect the majority of yearling bucks while allowing the majority of bucks 2½ years old and older to be eligible for harvest.

Second, is it supported by the majority of affected hunters? Agencies considering an antler restriction should conduct surveys to determine support levels before enacting the restriction.

Finally, will it be objectively monitored to determine success or failure? Without monitoring, there is no way to know if the restriction should be altered to improve success or possibly removed altogether if it doesn’t work or is no longer needed.

If hunters in NY were voluntarily passing yearling bucks we would not be have this conversation about yearling buck conservation!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

meat Hunter, I can't tell from your post if you are for them or against them.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Why pass 1.5 only to target 2.5?'s

Still killing immature bucks and that's what ar would do in central/western NY.

First. I do not support AR. but I will tell you from my experience in the woods the 2.5 year old is a more difficult animal to hunt than a 1.5. I think with that increase more make it through to 3.5 and higher. The success rate on 2.5's I don't think will match the success rate on 1.5's

Edited January 24, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[SteveB]

First, is the restriction biologically sound? This means the proposed restriction will protect the majority of yearling bucks while allowing the majority of bucks 2½ years old and older to be eligible for harvest.

It would protect only about 40% 0f the 1.5's in 7j, 7h, and I suspect much of the rest of cny/wny.

Second, is it supported by the majority of affected hunters? Agencies considering an antler restriction should conduct surveys to determine support levels before enacting the restriction.

And if the majority support - as you claim - then most 1.5's should be already being passed on.

Obviously they are not so either the support isn't there or the supporters don't really care enough to walk the talk - or both.

[Meat Hunter]

It would protect only about 40% 0f the 1.5's in 7j, 7h, and I suspect much of the rest of cny/wny.

what is it? The antler restriction? None has been proposed.

I have never stated what the antler restrictions would be in other parts of the state nor has any one or group proposed a specific restriction for new areas of NY. That is for the DEC biologist to set.

When did you quit NYB?

[SteveB]

what is it? The antler restriction? None has been proposed.

A 3pt/side AR which has been discussed forever.

Anytime AR is mentioned, there will be those who say it should be statewide.

Left nyb twice - 1st about 5 yrs ago didn't renew for a year or so.

Rejoined again and quit when the ex pres Kevin lied about the type of non profit charter nyb was on another forum.

[Meat Hunter]

Are you going to rejoin?- I remember seeing something about a new Pres in the Outdoor news.

I think we are out of areas where the 3 point would make any sense. When the DEC was thinking about YBP for the state they had 4 points for most of the state and other regional staff from the west think a spread would be better.

[phade]

The dec has clearly stated that ar plays no role in benefiting their plan from a biologocal perspective. If a majority wants it, why are there 1.5s being taken. Surely they are not practicing what they preach.