Just how smart are these critters?

[moog5050]

Deer do not duck arrows or anything else for that matter. When they jump, they squat down to load the muscles in their legs. They dont know it was an arrow or anything flung at them, they hear the noise and react to it, its how they are wired. I just do not see what they do as cognative thought. Conditioning, yes, reasoning, no.

I wasn't serious about ducking the arrow - just making a point that that action is instinctive (as you point out). However, I do believe that deer can learn and reason (according to one definition - capacity for consciously making sense of things). What you call conditioning can be interpretted as reasoning. For instance, a salivating pavlov's dog may not be thinking or reasoning, but a dog that rolls over on command has made sense of the fact that if he rolls over on command he will get a treat - that's not instinctive as dogs don't understand that when born. I believe deer have the same capacity. Understanding cause and effect is a form of reasoning - again, not at the same level as humans or most humans.

[nyantler]

Learned experiences and responses are not instinctive.

Correct... but the response does not require cognitive thought... kind of like Pavlov's dogs... just a reaction to a stimulus...

[fasteddie]

Correct... but the response does not require cognitive thought... kind of like Pavlov's dogs... just a reaction to a stimulus...

Hey , what the heck ! Don't tell me Obama is giving the deer "stimulus" too ! ... ...

 

[Doc]

Correct... but the response does not require cognitive thought... kind of like Pavlov's dogs... just a reaction to a stimulus...

 

By the way, what do you think that goat that I mentioned was doing when he figured out that if he did what I did with that gate hook that he could open the gate and get out to where he wanted to go? He observed, recognized a solution to a problem and then put into practice what he had learned. Sounds like some animals do indeed have some form of rudimentary intelligence along with cognitive thought processes  and some elements of reasoning after all, and an ability to learn totally apart from instinct. That brain was put there for more than just stuffing for the skull .... lol. I'm not sure where goats rank with deer in intelligence, but I'll bet they are quite similar.

[nyantler]

By the way, what do you think that goat that I mentioned was doing when he figured out that if he did what I did with that gate hook that he could open the gate and get out to where he wanted to go? He observed, recognized a solution to a problem and then put into practice what he had learned. Sounds like some animals do indeed have some form of rudimentary intelligence along with cognitive thought processes  and some elements of reasoning after all, and an ability to learn totally apart from instinct. That brain was put there for more than just stuffing for the skull .... lol. I'm not sure where goats rank with deer in intelligence, but I'll bet they are quite similar.

Rudimentary intelligence maybe... probably just the ability to copy what he has seen... not necessarily any thought .. more like "follow the leader"...

[growalot]

not necessarily any thought .. more like "follow the leader"...

Yep...It takes absolutely no thought to follow the leader..and how did the "Leader" come up with it's moves..Telepathy?

[nyantler]

not necessarily any thought .. more like "follow the leader"...

Yep...It takes absolutely no thought to follow the leader..and how did the "Leader" come up with it's moves..Telepathy?

Well the leader in this case was Doc.. and I'm pretty sure he's smarter than the goat..

[growalot]

I was referring to the type of things that Cynthiafu had mentioned....

i know they are super smart . was hunting an area that was blocked on 3 sides . we sent one person around the field to send them back to us . i watch 4 deer when they got to the rock wall . they ducked thier heads and went right back around to were the person went in . it was funny . when the person came out the other side we sent him back around the same way he went . and sure enough those same 4 deer came back out ducked their heads and did the same thing .

[cynthiafu]

it was weird though because 3 came running out right passed us but the other 4  ducked their heads and went right back . it was amazing . i have used this now when i push for people .  i will go one way then i back track and go around the other way .  so far it has worked . my sister loves me for it so does my brother- in -law

[Doc]

Rudimentary intelligence maybe... probably just the ability to copy what he has seen... not necessarily any thought .. more like "follow the leader"...

I never said that the cure for cancer was going to come from a herd of deer. I merely asked "just how smart are these critters". The only thing that I have put out is that deer have a basic level of thought, intelligence, and even some fundamental degree of reasoning. I never said it was on the same par as human intellect. But I certainly do think that our goat proved that animals have a lot bigger capacity for reasoning and intelligence than many humans are willing to give them credit for. She had a problem. She saw the solution demonstrated. She learned and executed the solution. She got to our expensive shrubs .... lol. I think that was pretty darned smart, given that it was a goat.

[Doc]

So, I was putting my bowling ball into the back of the car and I spotted deer tracks walking right up to the car. I thought that was kind of cool, but I didn't know the half of it. When I got out to the bowling alley parking lot, I was behind the car to get my ball when I spotted a funny pattern of clean spots on the back of the car. I started to look at my pants to see what kind of a mess I got into when I realized that those clean spots weren't from rubbing my pants on the car. They were small "tongue-sized" marks. Those goofy deer were licking the salt off my car.....lol. I guess I have been maintaining an illegal salt-lick at my house.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, you baiting SOB you!

[Doc]

Lol ...... Guilty as charged. Tongue-prints ....... the evidence is right there. Worse yet, I was out today refreshing the bait.

[Paula]

lol

[nyslowhand]

Some of you folks are trying to apply way too much science when evaluating a deer's behavoir! They (whitetails) are basically wild animals driven solely by their instinct to survive, avoidance of danger, feeding & breeding. These instincts are refined with every situation they encounter.

 

I agree, when waiting in the stand for days for one to come within range, they appear to be the smartest animals alive!! Then one will come in from directly downwind and pass within feet of you, stupid deer! Haven't you ever shot one and within minutes the rest of the group returns to the area? Then you get those mature bucks killed on a simple deer drive. Many of you may have seen them let the drivers pass by or even circle behind them. How about the ones that crash through the plate windows? If they are so smart, why do they continue to have problems with asphalt and roads?

 

They may have a small capacity to do some very simple "reasoning" when new situations are encountered. Like a new food source or the first encounter with an ATV, tractor or another wild animal. Nothing that would make you think they are capable of any degree of intellegence rather than simply learned experiences. Think someone else already questioned the difference between learned experiences & the ability to reason. That's what seperates humans from wild animals, the ability to reason.

 

Also, it isn't logical to compare the behavoir of domestic to wild animals! Domestic animals have one instinct, eat. The remainder of the time they spend amusing themselves.

[Doc]

Some of you folks are trying to apply way too much science when evaluating a deer's behavoir! They (whitetails) are basically wild animals driven solely by their instinct to survive, avoidance of danger, feeding & breeding. These instincts are refined with every situation they encounter.

 

I agree, when waiting in the stand for days for one to come within range, they appear to be the smartest animals alive!! Then one will come in from directly downwind and pass within feet of you, stupid deer! Haven't you ever shot one and within minutes the rest of the group returns to the area? Then you get those mature bucks killed on a simple deer drive. Many of you may have seen them let the drivers pass by or even circle behind them. How about the ones that crash through the plate windows? If they are so smart, why do they continue to have problems with asphalt and roads?

 

They may have a small capacity to do some very simple "reasoning" when new situations are encountered. Like a new food source or the first encounter with an ATV, tractor or another wild animal. Nothing that would make you think they are capable of any degree of intellegence rather than simply learned experiences. Think someone else already questioned the difference between learned experiences & the ability to reason. That's what seperates humans from wild animals, the ability to reason.

 

Also, it isn't logical to compare the behavoir of domestic to wild animals! Domestic animals have one instinct, eat. The remainder of the time they spend amusing themselves.

Ha .... I don't think that anyone here is claiming that the sequel to War and Peace is going to be written by one of the deer up on the hill ..... lol. The point is that they do have a fundamental ability to learn and a basic method of primitive reasoning. They are not a turnip, and that brain does function as something besides skull-stuffing to keep their head from imploding. And I do believe that when it comes to intelligence, wild animals can be compared to domestic. In fact if you do a bit of searching on the internet you will run into countless sites that refer to scientific studies that do indeed compare the intelligence of all kinds of animals domestic and wild. And I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't such a thing as a smart deer and a dumb deer which might explain why some of them seem to do ridiculously stupid things.

 

Also, instincts by their very definition cannot be "refined", other than over eons of time and the process of natural selection. Revision of instintive actions is known as learning. No it is not like they have some organized system of education. You cannot apply human levels of expectations to animals but there simply is no denying that they do have the capacity to learn. Another thing that often puts deer in danger is yet another feature of intelligence. That would be their capacity for curiosity. No, it's some earth shattering sign of genious, but it is a measure of intelligence.

 

I think the overthinking that is being done are those that think that the human level of intelligence is the only measure or sign of intelligence ........ It's not. Because a deer cannot learn the multiplication tables or has no understanding of a dictionary does not mean they are a completely unthinking creature.

[NFA-ADK]

I agree with Doc... 

 

Just as we are not all created equal neither are deer.  I agree with many that most of it is instinct and breed into through genes but to say that they do not reason and have a thought process that puts things into action and causes reaction over time would be wrong.

 

Ever been hunting and feel like something is watching you?  You freeze and then see a buck or doe take off...  (Your sixth sense working, IMO...)

 

Ever see a deer stop dead in its tracks only to turn around and leave and area while you are hidden, down wind, scent free and silent?  Sixth sense or just instinct? 

 

May be the deer I perceive as "stupid" deer sense that I will not shoot them.  Or possibly no one has shot at them yet...  Why do some have better instinct to avoid humans while others will not?  Learned experiences resulting in better survival for some?  Or just better instinct.  The older they get the harder they are to hunt correct?  If that is true then they have the ability over time to determine what is best for survival, is that not learning?  If they only did things one time and forgot I would agree it's all instinct, but 9 months after deer season is over they still scope out trees for danger...  Remembering things requires some intellect...  But that could all be simplified as reactions and instinct.

 

Personally I would think they could be as smart or as dumb as our pets.  I can not tell you how many times I compare my cats to bucks.  They are curious, independent and wild!

 

Great topic!!!  I think impossible to prove one way or another.  But for me I will just say they are smart because they evade me almost every year... (I need an excuse, please don't take this away from me, LOL.)  Arg how many more months till bow? 6 + ARG!!!

Again great topic!

 

 

 

  

[Doc]

Damning evidence of a salt-lick baiter.

tongue-prints everywhere

 

 

 

 

[NFA-ADK]

That is funny Doc!    

[fasteddie]

Doc ---- Put a trail cam out by the car and catch that culprit red handed errrrrrr red tongued !

[Doc]

If I can get them all trained to enjoy this salty delicacy, that may solve the problem of trying to take the car to the carwash periodically. Right now judging from the tracks, there is only one that has used my car as a snack.