logging and lease to farmers

[BKhunter]

I was looking into some property in Delware county and it is mostly wooded. I was wondering if anyone has ever gotten someone to log their property and if so what does it pay. Once the areas are cleared I was thinking of leasing the land to a farmer to plant crops. Does anyone know how much this usually brings in on an annual basis per acre? I am new to this so just trying to crunch the numbers to see if it can work out. Thanks in advance.

[nybuckboy]

No farmer here... but you are in for a hell of a lot of time and money to clear the land. Yes you can make some money logging the land but what you are really asking for is to strip the land to be able to plant crops. That being said you would have stripped the topsoil and left the land useless I believe. I think you are wasting your time. 

Edited March 29, 2014 by nybuckboy

[gastrodoc]

It is impossible to predict timber value without knowing the inventory of trees.  You could have a value of $10,000 /acre if black walnut/cherry versus a couple hundred dollars an acre if just cord/pulpwood.  Your best bet is to pay a forester to take an inventory and give you an accurate estimate

 

Logging the land will not make it farmable.  In order to farm you have to clear all the trees including popping all of the stumps of the logged trees.  This is very labor intensive and if you ask the loggers to do this it will likely cost you all the money you would make from the timber sale.  During the course of their work, the topsoil and all of the fertility of the land would be ruined for decades because of compaction from their heavy equipment. 

 

It is possible to make a significant amount of money from harvesting timber if you have the right piece of property.  We have paid for two of our parcels from one selective logging of each of these parcels.  However, these were carefully selected parcels and you need to know timber values etc (or hire a forester) or else you can easily get burned.  These days, most sellers know if there is significant timber value on their property and will either raise the price to compensate or log the parcel before selling

[philoshop]

This might get you some info.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/4972.html

More about forest management than  straight clear-cutting, but someone will probably pick up the phone.

 

I do a little chainsaw work now and then for some local farmers, clearing hedgerows and maintaining field edges just to keep the tillable acreage they have. I take the firewood in exchange for my work using my own equipment and they deal with the brush, stumps, and roots. I know it costs them a lot of money just to keep that extra couple of feet on the edge of a field they're already working. I can't imagine the costs involved with a new clear-cut that's not right next door. Unless you're talking about 200 or 300 acres adjacent to a farm that's looking to expand, you might want to consider other options.

[F-150]

As a farmer myself, I sold my timber by getting different companies come in and scale the trees and give bids. I took the highest price. I wouldn't recommend clearing the land to make it tilable. It is very expensive to hire a dozer and labor intensive to clean up all the tree roots and rocks. The rent per acre of land depends on the soil type plus the demand for cropland in the area. If you want some food plots you could clear some small areas for that, but it is alot of work,plus equipment you don't have and the trees deplete many of the nutrients in the soil. You would need cow manure or fertilizer , and fertilzer is expensive. Good luck !         

Edited March 29, 2014 by F-150

[bigpaul]

I have a farmer down the road who spreads manure in my field and he cuts and bales it 2 or 3 times a year.  No money exchanges hands.  He gets hay and I have a nice lush field that I don't have to cut.  Win win for everyone!

[HectorBuckBuster]

OK, I own 200 acres of land with about 167 acres tillable. I had a forester come in and mark tree's from a lumber company they called me with a bid. I just laughed I counted over 235 tree's and they only wanted to pay $12,000. I know my tree's I had at least 30 walnut trees which 5 where at least 3 feet around and tall with no branches, then I had lots of white/ hard maple. I turned there offer down. They call me again saying they may have made a mistake and under estimated the veneer. I said they would send a settlement check when it hit the mill, I declined. I found another logger that was lucking for Walnut only. Met with him and he works on a percentage which was 70/30 on veneer 60/40 on saw logs with the land owner getting the higher percentage. So I went with him. He cut 29 walnut tree's and the winning bid was $13,000 before the split. So the 29 tree brought more then what the other company offered. In the end I ended up taking a total of a 100 tree's (as I sold some hard maple ) and the total for those 100 tree was almost $25,000, and after the percentage split still was $18,000. Also I lease out my farm land and get $70 a acre.

[First-light]

Remember this if you lease to a farmer and get in the ag program your taxes are reduced dramatically. I get 40 bucks an acre over in Steuben county. Probably could get more but the guy is just great. More of a friend then a business associate.

[BKhunter]

Thanks for all the insight. The reason I am asking I was looking at a piece that was 147 acres with only 6 being fields. Trying to figure out a way to bring some income and slash the taxes dramatically.

[hunter]

BK I believe there is a tax program with the state for forestry. I think it has to be more than 50 acres. I would guess there are members on here more familiar than I am. The only issue is they send a forester who tells you what and when to cut and you pay tax based on that, There are other advantages to the land being a tree farm versus hobby land. Investment write offs and I think farm vehicles are tax free. I would imagine you could also seperate an acre to build a hunting lodge. Naturally if you decided to put in a pond and stock it that too would be an investment. It's more of a matter of having the money to invest and the income tax burden high enough to appreciate the deductions. If you're looking at 147 acres I'm guessing you are there. Good luck.

[Doc]

Something to consider ...... Be careful of decimating any of your good oak stands. Oak being a favored target of lumber operations, could result in the elimination of acorn production if not checked and monitored a bit.

[G-Man]

get into landowners foresty association. get registered as a tree farm, sell some firewood , timber every year and be registered agricultural with town for tax purposes.

[mike rossi]

OP;

 

You are not clear if the primary reason for purchasing this land is for hunting. You mention income and taxes. Agriculture and timber harvest entered the  comments and discussion.

 

As others said, it is generally not profitable to clear wood land to create agricultural land. The price of a crop lease or even grazing would depend if local farmers were in need of land (demand) and also the yield per acre which is determined by soil type and other factors, including logistics. The value of timber would also vary on species, age, and perhaps logistics and other factors as well, including the current market value (also true with crop and grazing leases).

 

Wildlife managers often use timber harvest, grazing, and crop farming to achieve land management goals - when it is feasible because it will do the same thing you are trying to do, generate income. The income generated does not necessarily turn a profit, but if the land does not have certain attributes you may not be able to get people to work it for free even though agriculture is more profitable than the public majority is aware.

 

However, if your primary objective is for hunting, there are a number of conservation programs you can look into. Most of these projects do not require that you allow public access although some of them do. These programs are administered through the state and federal governments as well as non government organizations. Some of them will provide tax advantages as well.

 

Even conservation programs will give priority to certain lands over others. Any land can be improved habitat wise which translates into more game and other wildlife, but some lands have greater potential than others. 147 acres of mostly wooded land and likely in hilly country with poor soils filled with rocks can be maintained in young forest but not necessarily at a profit. If you do buy this land, I would concentrate on maintaining  the six acres which (already) is open land. If you do not periodically disturb those 6 acres it will eventually revert to forest. Maintaining  only 6 acres alone  requires the expense of equipment and fuel, or you (might) be able to fence it and put domestic livestock on it to keep it grazed down.

 

Many NY hunter/landowners are only interested in deer, turkeys, and hunting on their own land. And many of those hunter/landowners advocate food plots to enhance hunting. I cant really offer much comment on that, however, there are many people who can offer you suggestions if hunting deer and turkey on your own land is your ideal hunting scenario. However, merely adding food plots at  locations that offer convenience and/or good shooting positions is not something relevant to the conservation programs I mentioned above.

Edited March 30, 2014 by mike rossi

[BKhunter]

I want to use the land for hunting and a weekend getaway but minimize the taxes and maybe bring in some income here and there to help with the mortgage and help maintain the property

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[Geno C]

It all depends on what type of timber you have predominantly on your property. . You can have 20 trees worth 100$ or one tree worth almost 2k really depends. I don't really know the going rates for field leasing but it depends on the acreage.

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[mike rossi]

The tax description sometimes indicates how many acres of a tract are considered 'tillable'. Good farm land might cost more too, not only because farmers want it but sometimes developers do too. Agriculture is a tough business occupation to break into and not nearly as mindless as many people believe it is. A lot of things are involved in it.

[BKhunter]

Another follow up question is when you say $70 or $40 an acre is that per year or per month

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[HectorBuckBuster]

If you lease to a farmer it is by the year. So say you get $70 and have 50 acres you get $3500 a year from the lease. Also NY State requires a 5 year lease also if you lease, if you do it yourself you need to have $10,000 a year income from farming.

[Fantail]

Having recently had property logged I can say this; if your serious about logging get a forester to look at it. 

It was high cut years ago so unfortunately the profit margin was mild.

[HectorBuckBuster]

My experience with a forester do not get one that works for the logging company that maybe buying your timber. I had a forester for a logging company trying to rip me off on the timber. If you are a gambler find a logger that does a split.