So what's so bad about NYS deer management and the hunting season??

[First-light]

If I had to cast a vote right now on any changes to the hunting season, I would leave it alone. What is so bad about the NYS deer season anyway?

We have multiple opportunities to harvest deer. Lucky hunters can get a DMP permit. I know from region to region the herd changes but where I hunt we have all age groups of deer. If you lucky enough you my take a 3.5 or 4.5 year old deer. If not there are plenty of doe and smaller bucks to hunt.

I went bow hunting 7 days this year saw plenty of deer. I hunted opening weekend and Monday morning  we took two huge doe and one nice 4pt. We saw plenty of deer. My hunting experience includes hunting with family and friends, being able to shoot what I want to shoot and seeing the deer in their element. If we harvest deer all the better. Again I wouldn't change the way NYS manages the hunting season. My opinion, what's yours?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Here are my opinions on what would make the deer season better overall.

1 - Shorten gun season. Make it a 2 week (tops) regular gun season after the rut and leave the late ML season in there.

2 - Make it 1 buck per season total, not 2

3 - Open archery season Oct 1

4 - Open archery season up to all archery equipment (read this as include x-bows)

5 - Make DMAPs only available to farmers that allow a certain number of hunters access to their land during regular deer seasons

[5.9cummins]

All of what WNY said and give tax credits for property taxes to landowners who open up property to hunting.

[First-light]

I could go for 3,4 and 5. Tax credits is a good idea. I get tax credits by being in the agricultural program, why not hunting?

[5.9cummins]

In PA timber companies are given tax credits to open up some of there properties to hunting. Harvest rates are set by PA game commission and you have to apply to hunt those properties / get special tags.

[Doc]

Just a word about tax credits. There is nothing magical about tax credits that differentiate them from simply doling out cash. In NY's current financial condition and that of the countys and towns, I don't think anyone will be too happy about a proposal to curtail any source of revenue. Yes, they do offer tax abatement programs to attract and hold businesses (a real questionable tactic) but I'm afraid that landowners really do not hire new employees or offer anything that would allow the state to recoup their expenditure.

As far as hacking on the gun season, it might be interesting to see just what that would cost the state in terms of license sales and declining hunter numbers. Gun hunters are the bread and butter of the DEC incomes. I sincerely doubt that it would be a smart financial move to be beating up the majority of hunters at a point where hunter numbers are declining. Such a move had better have some real credible benefits that are easily demonstrated and very convincing to the gun-hunters. I think it would be a very tough-sell.

As far as DMAPs being available to farmers who totally lock up their land from hunters, I have always wondered why the DEC allows that. I have a feeling that the issue might be a bit more complicated than it first appears. I'm thinking that there may be some legal implications to the way that program is handled. I would like to have that explained to me someday.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, after putting our observations out there about what we have seen regarding hunter numbers out there on the state lands ,etc, do you really think shortening gun season will have much of an effect? Many weekend warriors get out there for a weekend or two and thats it. Cutting down the season wouldnt affect them. Plus, for the guys that hunt like crazy, the transition to a crossbow isnt that bad, and lets face it, most hunters arent as frugal as you lol. Id be willing to bet that if it came down to it, most guys would pick up a crossbow rather than give up hunting.

I just dont see it making a huge dent in hunter numbers, especially in the long run. Once hunting gets better, people will want to hunt in NY more.

Just my opinion though.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The big problem i see is first and formost is the freakin nuisance permits givin to farmers.You cant tell me there are that many deer anywhere in ny that someone needs to be out shooting them at night.In the area i hunt 8m on and around letchworth state park the deer are just not there like they once were.I hunt a farm the borders the saftey zone on the park and the deer are not even there.The farm down the road shoots them at night and will not let even bowhunters on the land.On top of that it is said that they just gut shoot them with 22mag and let them run off and die.(found 2 starting to rot on opening day of gun but to bad to find wound)I can see a few dmaps if the farm opens up to some hunters....

[HectorBuckBuster]

As a land owner the tax credit idea sucks. Sorry, I know what would happen you would get over run with people even if they don't have permission. I limited on my property to around 4 people per season. I already get agriculture assessment on my farm land. Also most people don't know this, but farmers get their school taxes back from a Farmers School Tax Credit refund on their taxes.Also again the AR is all about people shooting a huge buck.Big bucks are a trophy for a reason, they are hard to get. I pay my taxes and if I want to shoot a spike on my property I should have that right.When my daughters is old enough to hunt, and a spike came though, I would love to see her take that deer.JUst the same and if I had a older relative that wanted to hunt again, and say a spike came through and they take this deer. This could be their last deer in the life you never know. I had a uncle who just passed away this summer at 80 years old, he called me a few years ago and had the itch to hunt.I told him a spot to go and a buck passed through there like clock work at 7:30 am. Well opening day came and at 7:30am he shot this buck (6 pointer small), but he was so happy and this was his very last deer and hunting season.There are fewer and ferwer hunters and AR, will push alot more hunters away.Don't get me wrong the opening of bow season on Oct 1st would be sweet, but again, this is just favortism to the bowhunters, and the gun hunters get nothing. So you want to give bow hunters another 2-3 weeks (depending on the current date of opening day of bow season) and then take away a week of gun season.

[WNYBuckHunter]

It would equal out to almost 2 weeks of gun season gone. Want to hunt more? Pick up a crossbow and have at it. The hunting would be better for a longer period because deer arent being blasted at with guns for 4 to 5 weeks straight. Ever notice how much more relaxed deer are during archery season? 

[First-light]

I don't agree with a shorter gun season. It's just the opposite for me, I come up every other weekend and if it was two weeks well I'm out of luck. I won't knock down the crossbow until I try it. I think the way the season lays out right now is fine, I'm not worried at all about introducing the crossbow, that will work itself out in the long run.

I will not give up the right to choose what type of deer I shoot, that goes against my grain. Trophy is in the eye of the beholder and let it be. As for the nuisance permits we

(land owners) that lease to the local farmer have stated that no nuisance permits be used on our land. I don't agree with the DEC and these permits.

[Doewhacker]

"Don't get me wrong the opening of bow season on Oct 1st would be sweet, but again, this is just favortism to the bowhunters, and the gun hunters get nothing. So you want to give bow hunters another 2-3 weeks (depending on the current date of opening day of bow season) and then take away a week of gun season"

I hear you on the fairness but at the same time bow hunters only kill @35,000 deer a year where as gun hunters take down @170,000+ a year. Obviously the state relies heavily on the money from gun hunters and also their deer kill numbers to help keep the herd in check. I don't think adding a couple of weeks to bow season will add a whole lot of kills to the bow column and honestly I don't know that chopping the gun season would hurt alot of guys..but again I don't know what the effects would be long term and these are just opinions any way. Being a bow hunter I would love some more time in the woods, but I don't think that would be ok for the rest of the 700,000 hunters in NY.

[Nomad]

We own over 100 acres of Ag land and i hunt a farm over 20 times that size . As far as DMAPs we get a fair amount ( the big farm), guys use them instead of doe tags not in additon too at least where I hunt. Nuisance permits they account for less then 2% of all deer killed in NYS. A bad weather opening day of gun has more effect on the deer take then that.

The farm gets 2 !! and they are close to 3,000 acres. Thats  the farmers meat for the season,he's to busy to  gun hunt much at all and then its big bucks only.

Cutting gun season will hurt hunting like nothing else including the anti's . Most bucks are killed the first week end anyway . My goodness if a bow hunter can't get it done in 4-5 weeks including the rut, his time might be better spent scouting and learning his craft and taking shots at targets not gun guys.

Yes i bow hunt love it the most, killed a buck my first year out and most years since .

Most bow guys i know pass on does and are waiting for a buck of a certin size. longer bow season would mean more big bucks taken and not much effect on does.

[nyantler]

I'm with WNY

[rutstrut]

what does new york do for deer management  ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[LIHUNT]

I live on long island and hunt the first three days of the regular firearms season upstate and then the last weekend or so of the season. If the season was shortened I dont even think i would bother.  I am a die hard bow hunter, but i think it would be foolish to shorten the gun season.  I think you would see alot of guys not bother and not only the licenses $$ would be effected but so would the local towns where guys stay.  If they dont go there they certainly wont spend money there.

[5.9cummins]

Just a word about tax credits. There is nothing magical about tax credits that differentiate them from simply doling out cash. In NY's current financial condition and that of the countys and towns, I don't think anyone will be too happy about a proposal to curtail any source of revenue. Yes, they do offer tax abatement programs to attract and hold businesses (a real questionable tactic) but I'm afraid that landowners really do not hire new employees or offer anything that would allow the state to recoup their expenditure.

As far as hacking on the gun season, it might be interesting to see just what that would cost the state in terms of license sales and declining hunter numbers. Gun hunters are the bread and butter of the DEC incomes. I sincerely doubt that it would be a smart financial move to be beating up the majority of hunters at a point where hunter numbers are declining. Such a move had better have some real credible benefits that are easily demonstrated and very convincing to the gun-hunters. I think it would be a very tough-sell.

As far as DMAPs being available to farmers who totally lock up their land from hunters, I have always wondered why the DEC allows that. I have a feeling that the issue might be a bit more complicated than it first appears. I'm thinking that there may be some legal implications to the way that program is handled. I would like to have that explained to me someday.

I never said tax credits would get the green light just that it was a good idea to improve access.

The big problem i see is first and formost is the freakin nuisance permits givin to farmers.You cant tell me there are that many deer anywhere in ny that someone needs to be out shooting them at night.In the area i hunt 8m on and around letchworth state park the deer are just not there like they once were.I hunt a farm the borders the saftey zone on the park and the deer are not even there.The farm down the road shoots them at night and will not let even bowhunters on the land.On top of that it is said that they just gut shoot them with 22mag and let them run off and die.(found 2 starting to rot on opening day of gun but to bad to find wound)I can see a few dmaps if the farm opens up to some hunters....

As someone who works with farmers all across the state they are needed. The majority of farmers don't gut shoot deer and leave them for dead they are used, although there are exceptions. Farmers are in the same world we are i.e. crappy economy and when you got a critter (deer, goose, turkey etc. etc.) reducing your income see how you feel.

We own over 100 acres of Ag land and i hunt a farm over 20 times that size . As far as DMAPs we get a fair amount ( the big farm), guys use them instead of doe tags not in additon too at least where I hunt. Nuisance permits they account for less then 2% of all deer killed in NYS. A bad weather opening day of gun has more effect on the deer take then that.

The farm gets 2 !! and they are close to 3,000 acres. Thats  the farmers meat for the season,he's to busy to  gun hunt much at all and then its big bucks only.

Cutting gun season will hurt hunting like nothing else including the anti's . Most bucks are killed the first week end anyway . My goodness if a bow hunter can't get it done in 4-5 weeks including the rut, his time might be better spent scouting and learning his craft and taking shots at targets not gun guys.

Yes i bow hunt love it the most, killed a buck my first year out and most years since .

Most bow guys i know pass on does and are waiting for a buck of a certin size. longer bow season would mean more big bucks taken and not much effect on does.

The same can be said about gun hunters if you cant get it done in two weeks. I seriously doubt cutting gun season would have that much affect on numbers. Last time i checked better than 90% of deer taken during gun season were on opening weekend.

As a land owner the tax credit idea sucks. Sorry, I know what would happen you would get over run with people even if they don't have permission. I limited on my property to around 4 people per season. I already get agriculture assessment on my farm land. Also most people don't know this, but farmers get their school taxes back from a Farmers School Tax Credit refund on their taxes.Also again the AR is all about people shooting a huge buck.Big bucks are a trophy for a reason, they are hard to get. I pay my taxes and if I want to shoot a spike on my property I should have that right.When my daughters is old enough to hunt, and a spike came though, I would love to see her take that deer.JUst the same and if I had a older relative that wanted to hunt again, and say a spike came through and they take this deer. This could be their last deer in the life you never know. I had a uncle who just passed away this summer at 80 years old, he called me a few years ago and had the itch to hunt.I told him a spot to go and a buck passed through there like clock work at 7:30 am. Well opening day came and at 7:30am he shot this buck (6 pointer small), but he was so happy and this was his very last deer and hunting season.There are fewer and ferwer hunters and AR, will push alot more hunters away.Don't get me wrong the opening of bow season on Oct 1st would be sweet, but again, this is just favortism to the bowhunters, and the gun hunters get nothing. So you want to give bow hunters another 2-3 weeks (depending on the current date of opening day of bow season) and then take away a week of gun season.

I just spent better than six hours hiking a 2000+ acre tract of timber company property. The company will let anyone on the property (with ATVs) and the only thing they ask is that there are no permanent tree-stands built. I saw better than a dozen permanent stands. Guys with permanent and lock on stands alike were cutting down trees for shooting lanes or cutting new ATV trails. Found 8 beer cans which i am sure were from the guys celebrating the three gut shot does that were left to rot. Plus there was a garbage bag full of trash at the R.O.W. access (which i picked up).

Its not hard to figure out why access is getting harder to find.

[Chevy]

Things are fine the way they are with a couple exceptions. Bowhunters still need to be compensated for the time DEC gave gun season to open on saturday, they took away the last weekend of archery season to do that. Multiple DMP's and nuisance permits are what decimate the herd. One buck during archery and one during regular is fine if the herd is healthy and not decimated by DMP's and nuisance permits.

By the way, the DEC is not interested in herd management if you attended any of the recent meetings. They are only interested IN decimating the herd to satisfy the special interest groups. In 8H they gave me 4 DMP's(which I won't fill because I can't eat 4). 

[First-light]

Again, we all have our opinions. All the farmers I know use the nuisance permits during gun season, many are left over. I have heard of stories of gut shot deer left to rot but never saw it for myself.  Shorten the gun season and the experience decreases in many ways. Look at all those trips to camp, time with good friends, stories to tell, taking a kid hunting, revenue lost to local towns, and chances at bagging a buck that would decrease. I don't believe you will get a significant amount of guys picking up the crossbow in exchange to be out in the woods two weeks after gun opener, just won't happen. Hey, just my thoughts, if it aint broke don't fix it!

[SilentStalker]

How'd you get 4? I thought you could get 2 unless it was a DMAP tag?

[Doc]

Doc, after putting our observations out there about what we have seen regarding hunter numbers out there on the state lands ,etc, do you really think shortening gun season will have much of an effect? Many weekend warriors get out there for a weekend or two and thats it. Cutting down the season wouldnt affect them. Plus, for the guys that hunt like crazy, the transition to a crossbow isnt that bad, and lets face it, most hunters arent as frugal as you lol. Id be willing to bet that if it came down to it, most guys would pick up a crossbow rather than give up hunting.

I just dont see it making a huge dent in hunter numbers, especially in the long run. Once hunting gets better, people will want to hunt in NY more.

Just my opinion though.

I'm thinking that there are a lot of hunters just waiting to be pushed over the edge. I think that's what's behind all this lack of enthusiasm in the hunting crowd today. These half day hunters are trying to tell us something. I think the normal reaction to a severe cut in gun season length would be "Well check it out. They're screwing us again". It doesn't matter if they are really using the days or not. The perception would be that they are once again being taken advantage of. Especially in light of the license fee increases and the new fee on permits. Pay more for less ...... a good recipe for fewer customers. It doesn't work well in retail outlets, and I wouldn't expect hunters to be any more accepting of such tactics.

Look, nobody can say with any certainty just how hunters would react to such a change. We can guess and try to apply a certain level of logic, but it is foolish for anyone to pretend that they know exactly what would happen. I guess my feeling is why take a chance. The benefits are theoretical at best, but the steady decline of hunters is now a numerical certainty. I'm not for anything that even has the potential of accelerating the diminishing our ranks further. It just doesn't seem like something we should be playing around with.

Doc

[Doc]

Obviously the state relies heavily on the money from gun hunters and also their deer kill numbers to help keep the herd in check.

I think that one part of that sentence is the main reason why NYS will never see a cut in gun season length. Somebody has to do the job of controlling deer population. We bowhunters are not going to get that job done. Our efficiency just doesn't rank up there with gun hunters. If you pay real close attention you will see that the DEC has been championing moves that increase doe harvests. They are not interested in ideas that limit doe harvests. So even if we could all somehow agree that a shorter gun season is a good thing, getting anyone with any authority to even listen to such a proposal seems like an impossibility. I suspect that we will see just the opposite as it is far more likely that we will see incursions into bow seasons of various kinds of firearms and other types of higher efficiency weapons.

Another aspect to consider is that there also is a bit of a combat setting when we start proposing that seasons be re-adjusted to further favor bowhunters while at the same time suggesting that gun-hunters get stiffed. If ever it comes down to a battle between the gun hunters and the bowhunters, I'll let you all guess just who the winner of that would be. And I think I can guess which side the DEC and politicians would be on. That's a fight I don't ever want to see started.

Doc

[nyantler]

:-\ 

[Chevy]

How'd you get 4? I thought you could get 2 unless it was a DMAP tag?

I received 2 in the first round and then they were just giving them away after 11/1. i just walked in and said "give me two more please".

[SteveB]

The same can be said about gun hunters if you cant get it done in two weeks. I seriously doubt cutting gun season would have that much affect on numbers. Last time i checked better than 90% of deer taken during gun season were on opening weekend

Don't know that it is 90%, but it is a high number.

That is why shortening the gun season would have little effect except to anger the gun hunters for its intent. And why it will not happen.