If they stopped all Buck hunting.

[phade]

I'd like to put the old buck meat debate to the rest but thought it interesting watching an episode of Meat Hunter that was dedicated to tough cuts of meat that he specifically mentioned and talked to this point.

 

Young bucks are generally under a lot less pressure and hang with does, while the big bucks are sparing and fighting toughening the muscles and creating a "chewier" meat. Again, this is mostly applicable to front and hind quarters.

 

It's sinew and muscle connectivity. The more its worked the stronger the fibers get.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It's sinew and muscle connectivity. The more its worked the stronger the fibers get.

OK, let me ask this and I am going off topic a bit and tie in AR's. The results of AR's should be for a more balance age structure? More mature bucks and less does to breed all or the majority of does in the first cycle. (I have read this many times in these threads). I am going to concede the point and agree mature bucks are crappier meat. And now the point that their sparring and fighting leads to it because of the workout. I would think that a population with more equally dominant or near equal would lead to more fighting and more aggressive matches. No? a population of 1.5's is not going to go toe to toe with a mature buck in an all out brawl. Not for very long anyway. So are we sacrificing the meat quality of what will be taken with AR's? Does this mean it really is all bout the horns since the meat sucks? 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Culvercreek hunt club

[NFA-ADK]

I am going to write a book about how to bag the biggest doe of your life.  Wonder if anyone would ever buy it?  NOT  lol

 

 

So who is going to start the next thread about "If they stopped all doe hunting."? 

If they stopped all duck hunting?

If they stopped all bear hunting?

If they stopped all fishing?

If they stopped all small game hunting?

 

IF THE STOPPED ALL HUNTING!

 

Here is the real question, IF they did stop all doe hunting.  What would you do? 

 

Most say buck stoppage would not change anything for them.  For me it would only be that way if they stopped doe hunting, then nothing would change for me.

[growalot]

Before we bought our home land in 8N camp is in 8X....Tags were not easy to get there. Way back when  I remember the party permits as well 3-4 on a permit for one doe...did not go down often...it is still difficult to always land 2 tags for there....I do not hunt much at camp...There are also alot of buck and some mighty fine ones at that. I go to camp during bow to hunt bear.....I have mentioned this many times over the years....if I do land a doe tag then I will hunt doe at the same time....I haven't gotten a doe permit for there in a while and have not hunted there save turkey season or great squirrel hunting....

 

Many years ago when they first opened rifle I got a new 243...I shot the first deer that came by with the new weapon...a basket 6pt.. I also shot a doe and went home. Then never hunted deer with it again until this year and at home. Had I shot a doe first...I would have gone home where I had more doe tags....

[dbHunterNY]

     I can picture it now 3 or 4 150+" bucks just browsing under the stand , no care in the world. Then my heart races as that 170# mule nosed doe steps out of the brush...

 

Nope, just not the same..... lol... It would take a while before the excitement of seeing a large rack went away.... Think it is a learned trait or a hereditary one?

 

there's a military base that opens hunting for a short period of time to those who apply.  i believe it's McAllister in OK state.  Might only be able to use a traditional recurve or longbow and there are limitations as to hunting gear you can have at the facility.  you're given access to a specific unit.  This place is packed full of giant racked whitetails whom many reach their peak and then even die of old age.  it's usually a one or two time draw per lifetime.  however, shoot a doe and you get a free invite to come back next season, plus get to continue hunting that season's slot.  the way those were talking about it you could have the very scenario play out. lol  the doe supposedly would be David Copperfield seem like a clumsy circus clown at a five star quiet restaurant.

[dbHunterNY]

OK, let me ask this and I am going off topic a bit and tie in AR's. The results of AR's should be for a more balance age structure? More mature bucks and less does to breed all or the majority of does in the first cycle. (I have read this many times in these threads). I am going to concede the point and agree mature bucks are crappier meat. And now the point that their sparring and fighting leads to it because of the workout. I would think that a population with more equally dominant or near equal would lead to more fighting and more aggressive matches. No? a population of 1.5's is not going to go toe to toe with a mature buck in an all out brawl. Not for very long anyway. So are we sacrificing the meat quality of what will be taken with AR's? Does this mean it really is all bout the horns since the meat sucks? 

 

reasonable considerations but i don't think a state mandated AR would be restrictive enough to get bucks to maturity enough to make a significant difference.  i don't think bucks involved in more rutting activity would make a significant enough difference either.  i mean can't give a definite answer to the rutting activity concern.  however, when i think about it we have younger bucks here that get in all out battles at times.  that's just because despite being younger it still could be the dominant buck in the area.  I've taken numerous 2.5 year olds in the past where that was the case.  hard to believe but their just wasn't anything bigger around enough to be the boss.  they were constantly running smaller bucks off and fighting.  some were broken racked.  one even had both beams broken one year.  I didn't notice any significant difference in meat quality not enough to influence what deer i harvest.

[Five Seasons]

OK, let me ask this and I am going off topic a bit and tie in AR's. The results of AR's should be for a more balance age structure? More mature bucks and less does to breed all or the majority of does in the first cycle. (I have read this many times in these threads). I am going to concede the point and agree mature bucks are crappier meat. And now the point that their sparring and fighting leads to it because of the workout. I would think that a population with more equally dominant or near equal would lead to more fighting and more aggressive matches. No? a population of 1.5's is not going to go toe to toe with a mature buck in an all out brawl. Not for very long anyway. So are we sacrificing the meat quality of what will be taken with AR's? Does this mean it really is all bout the horns since the meat sucks? 

 

1st. It's always been about the horns haha.

2nd. I've read so many articles on age structure that I'm not sure anyone really knows the answer. I've read that trophy hunters take the dominant bucks so that leaves the 1.5's to breed and creates inferior genetics. I've read large doe populations leave more yearlings to bread as well.

 

My own personal style is to hunt for horns and to fill the freezer. I don't think I've ever had a tough doe. Even the mature ones. I assume the only reason someone shoots a doe is for meat. Otherwise it seems that shooting a doe for anything other than meat is just "killing". I'd say the same about harvesting a buck as well honestly.

 

My thoughts are that if the woods are filled with more 2.5 year old bucks there will be more competition but early on the yearlings and immature bucks (depending on area age class) give up and still taste delicious . I think we all agreed we're still going to eat that 5.5 year old anyhow. He might just be more hamburg and sausage. Those early October kills should still be tasty too.

[phade]

I don't generally choose to shoot my bucks for meat because I have DMPs, the meat is what it is. That doesn't help people with limited/no DMPs though.

 

It's been a while since I've shot a 1.5 y/o buck, and I don't think I would go out with that intention. At the same time, if I got to the last week of gun or late season and the right (or wrong) 1.5 walked by in a season where I haven't shot a buck or a doe (for whatever reason), the more I think about it, the more I'd proabbly send the projectile. Sometimes getting back to the roots is just fun. Had a day like that during MZ this year. Had a blast. At the end of the day, I don't like the idea of limiting anyone on taking a buck of their choosing for whatever reason, and maybe I see me in that scenario to a degree.

 

 

[Five Seasons]

I don't generally choose to shoot my bucks for meat because I have DMPs, the meat is what it is. That doesn't help people with limited/no DMPs though.

 

It's been a while since I've shot a 1.5 y/o buck, and I don't think I would go out with that intention. At the same time, if I got to the last week of gun or late season and the right (or wrong) 1.5 walked by in a season where I haven't shot a buck or a doe (for whatever reason), the more I think about it, the more I'd proabbly send the projectile. Sometimes getting back to the roots is just fun. Had a day like that during MZ this year. Had a blast. At the end of the day, I don't like the idea of limiting anyone on taking a buck of their choosing for whatever reason, and maybe I see me in that scenario to a degree.

 

totally agree with everything you said. although the limited dmp's are why it's important to have zoned ARs. I also agree that towards the end of the year even with a full freezer the temptation to shoot something with horns will grow. Takes a dedicated hunter to pass up bucks. I'd argue though that a lot of us in heavily populated deer areas rarely get to late December without having a couple cracks at a doe. But yes, full disclosure I've never had a doe only year and I've shot yearlings in those years. This was back in early archery days for me and I wasn't holding myself to any standard. I guess I'd have to see how it played out now if the scenario you mentioned happened.

[nyantler]

OK, let me ask this and I am going off topic a bit and tie in AR's. The results of AR's should be for a more balance age structure? More mature bucks and less does to breed all or the majority of does in the first cycle. (I have read this many times in these threads). I am going to concede the point and agree mature bucks are crappier meat. And now the point that their sparring and fighting leads to it because of the workout. I would think that a population with more equally dominant or near equal would lead to more fighting and more aggressive matches. No? a population of 1.5's is not going to go toe to toe with a mature buck in an all out brawl. Not for very long anyway. So are we sacrificing the meat quality of what will be taken with AR's? Does this mean it really is all bout the horns since the meat sucks? 

The truth is that if we're doing AR's to stretch the age structure... that would be part of a deer management move, which is about conservation and any affect it has on the taste of deer meat is irrelevant... unless hunters do what they always do and look at management in terms of what it can do for the hunter over what it can do for the deer... If we as hunters do what is necessary to properly manage whitetails based on the habitat available, everything else that benefits the hunter will fall into place. There will be plenty of healthy deer to hunt, plenty of mature bucks to hunt, plenty of healthy young does to eat, etc. etc.

 

I find it funny that hunters will eat hamburger, hotdogs, sausage and other meat products made with the lesser parts of a cow or whatever other animal meat is thrown in that stuff... Yet when it comes to venison, and those that need it to "feed their families", only the prime most tender venison will do... LOL

[growalot]

You'll never convince me it will save young buck...That is other than the spikes 3 and 4 points...Want mature deer...TEACH THEM WHAT TO LOOK FOR BODY WISE!...Because the ones not imposing their own restrictions now..... Will still be shooting the first 3 pts on one side they see...JMO

[nyantler]

 

You'll never convince me it will save young buck...That is other than the spikes 3 and 4 points...Want mature deer...TEACH THEM WHAT TO LOOK FOR BODY WISE!...Because the ones not imposing their own restrictions now..... Will still be shooting the first 3 pts on one side they see...JMO

 

Hence.. the reason 3 on a side is not an ample antler restriction for getting good buck age structure and only serves to protect a portion of smaller bucks. It falls way short of extending age classes beyond 3.5 years old.

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

I thought I read somewhere ,,, that a spike is usually a late born buck being conceived in the later rut ... I also remember reading that it actually takes that same spike a extra year to reach the same potential that a early born six of the same age to develop his rack size .. I know this is not true for all circumstances.. But as I understand it its would be better from a hunters standpoint looking for rack development to take a spike rather than a six...

All in all the ARs would save a population of the 1.5 bucks and I think that would be the DECs goal???

[nyantler]

I thought I read somewhere ,,, that a spike is usually a late born buck being conceived in the later rut ... I also remember reading that it actually takes that same spike a extra year to reach the same potential that a early born six of the same age to develop his rack size .. I know this is not true for all circumstances.. But as I understand it its would be better from a hunters standpoint looking for rack development to take a spike rather than a six...

All in all the ARs would save a population of the 1.5 bucks and I think that would be the DECs goal???

 

I don't think the DEC has a "goal" when it comes to bucks... there only concern is population control and trying to keep hunter numbers up.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I don't think the DEC has a "goal" when it comes to bucks... there only concern is population control and trying to keep hunter numbers up.

Which is why you will see the 1 buck rule state wide, Ar in high deer areas . They will cater to the bigger population that want bigger deer and they will force those high deer areas to shoot does. They may make the season shorter to force the shot sort of...You know. I better take this legal buck because i might not see another or i better take this doe because i have to work overtime and i only have 3 more days in the season to hunt. 

[nyantler]

Which is why you will see the 1 buck rule state wide, Ar in high deer areas . They will cater to the bigger population that want bigger deer and they will force those high deer areas to shoot does. They may make the season shorter to force the shot sort of...You know. I better take this legal buck because i might not see another or i better take this doe because i have to work overtime and i only have 3 more days in the season to hunt. 

 

Although I think we may see more AR areas... I doubt that they will reduce the number of bucks we can take or shorten deer season... neither plays into their goal for population control... the only reason they're caving on the AR thing is because it has already been proven that buck kill numbers will recover to normal levels after just a couple years.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Although I think we may see more AR areas... I doubt that they will reduce the number of bucks we can take or shorten deer season... neither plays into their goal for population control... the only reason they're caving on the AR thing is because it has already been proven that buck kill numbers will recover to normal levels after just a couple years.

I dont know, i have spoke with a couple people that are kinda around that group at times and their feelings is that we are going to feel the sticker shock..1 buck for all seasons, Ar in high density areas and a week or two chopped of the Northern season and maybe only a 2 week gun season in the Tier... If you look at the survey you will see those same questions asked of the hunters. I gave my positive thoughts on those good ideas.

[nyantler]

I dont know, i have spoke with a couple people that are kinda around that group at times and their feelings is that we are going to feel the sticker shock..1 buck for all seasons, Ar in high density areas and a week or two chopped of the Northern season and maybe only a 2 week gun season in the Tier... If you look at the survey you will see those same questions asked of the hunters. I gave my positive thoughts on those good ideas.

 

I don't understand how anyone can believe that taking less bucks and shortening gun season is good deer management... it only serves the selfishness of NY hunters who want more deer and bigger bucks and does nothing to keep deer populations in check... especially as a statewide program... might be okay in isolated areas, but I'm not even sure about that. I don't know what is broken that actually needs to be fixed, other than we need to kill more deer.

[growalot]

I can tell you one entire family that does not have life times...told me they are done hunting...tired of the BS...sick of not seeing doe tired of the crazed rack hunters....They have a descent chunk of land and it's going to make others hunting a lot tougher for sure...wonder how many times this will play out across the state?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I don't understand how anyone can believe that taking less bucks and shortening gun season is good deer management... it only serves the selfishness of NY hunters who want more deer and bigger bucks and does nothing to keep deer populations in check... especially as a statewide program... might be okay in isolated areas, but I'm not even sure about that. I don't know what is broken that actually needs to be fixed, other than we need to kill more deer.

I think you will see better population control if they break up the state like they should and base harvest rates on what is really there. They need to get a handle on what deer are in what areas and then put rules in based on those numbers. 1 buck rule and lots of doe harvest will be a great thing in my hunting area in the tier and 1 buck with normal doe harvest would be a good thing in my north hunting area. 3 months of pressure is not needed in the north and split seasons would be even better. Some wonder why deer get pushed onto say property like mine,where we see good bucks chasing does in the middle of the day but hunt a couple miles either way and see trucks parked there every day and see no deer. There is a reason for that.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I can tell you one entire family that does not have life times...told me they are done hunting...tired of the BS...sick of not seeing doe tired of the crazed rack hunters....They have a descent chunk of land and it's going to make others hunting a lot tougher for sure...wonder how many times this will play out across the state?

Very little..If a person is a hunter then they will hunt. If they love venison, they will hunt. If they love bone, they will hunt. If property is already untouchable by hunters in an area all of a sudden does not get hunted it wont change the area's hunting much.  If the land you speak of was only hunted by a few in the family and all the deer were on that property, the deer  will still be on that property and still wont be able to be touched by other local hunters.  We sure dont need to be losing hunters but if tey would hang up the hat because of some changes ten they were not long for the game anyways.

[skully]

Do you have any idea of the hunters that do not buy a ny state licenses anymore because they want to see mature bucks?  Every year i talk to somebody or a group of hunters that hunt in ohio or maryland or Pa and do not even buy a NY state license anymore......

[Doc]

I don't understand how anyone can believe that taking less bucks and shortening gun season is good deer management... it only serves the selfishness of NY hunters who want more deer and bigger bucks and does nothing to keep deer populations in check... especially as a statewide program... might be okay in isolated areas, but I'm not even sure about that. I don't know what is broken that actually needs to be fixed, other than we need to kill more deer.

I'm not sure "good deer management" is what runs the ship anymore at the DEC. My suspicions are now going to the goals of the DEC are being driven by short term political directives. Polls, surveys, public meetings, all seem to be the current tools for "management". Of course it is necessary to keep hunters involved and engaged as long as these "popularity contests" don't start taking the place the good basic biological principles. I'm beginning to wonder. One year their head biologist is saying that there is no biological purpose or benefit to ARs, and the next year they are implementing several AR units, and talking about adding more as long as it shuts up those nagging pressure groups. Then too you have the CTFs determining deer density targets also. It just seems that more and more, the responsibilities of performing wildlife management is being turned into a series of opinion polls. I hope I'm wrong, but every year that seems to be the direction the DEC is taking.

[G-Man]

Do you have any idea of the hunters that do not buy a ny state licenses anymore because they want to see mature bucks? Every year i talk to somebody or a group of hunters that hunt in ohio or maryland or Pa and do not even buy a NY state license anymore......

that is up to them, the media influence of how important a big buck is to get. Honestly someone getting a big buck here in ny is,much more impressive as property size is small in nys, avg. 50 acre farms vs 400 plus acre farms.. that alone is,one reason management plans out west (landowner get tags that they can sell to anyone ) vs our camps that are too small to even qualify for a single doe tag.

[growalot]

Why of course it would make a difference for surrounding hunters...ppl going in either walking or driving their ATV's move deer..... when they aren't moving deer then the deer will stay put...when you start adding ppl across the state doing that near areas of ppl that don't hunt or allow hunting(which is on the increase with the 5 acre chopping of the country side) it does make a difference...but for us that live near this, that do hunt, it makes a difference...I now have 5 properties near me that in the course of 10 yrs has stopped allowing hunters  because of BS....stopped hunting because of a shooting.....  stopped family members because of BS and now only allows 2 bow hunting friends...then one that always allowed hunting  but with a NO DOE rule....stopped all hunting.... because they got peeved a QDM person moved in next to them....That is now 500 acres...it sure does make an impact....To top that off hunters near the guy down the road that shot 11 deer by him self getting very peeved...hunters or not, I can see where it may be going with them as well...the State making a foolish push will have an impact....

I have established my area as bad as it is ...isn't the only area with the problems. I have mentioned the stress it causes....Over the years others here have stepped up and admitted to similar situations...and not just in region 8 either. There are many middle at later aged hunting land owners that have been on the verge of the old "blank this". that wont need much of a push to lock up their lands....but hey time will tellI'm thinking I'm not wrong.....

Edited January 23, 2015 by growalot