Deer Survey Results

[jjb4900]

I just got around to reading the latest NY Outdoor News, it seems that they have come to the conclusion that there is "No regulatory solution that is going to make all hunters happy"................holy crap, how much time, effort and money was dumped into figuring that out?

[dbHunterNY]

i don't get the outdoor news but I skimmed through some of the reports.  read pretty much the intial data results/report from Cornell which isn't easy reading if you're not up on statistics.  didn't really yet read the other two reports; DEC buck management report (by kelly and hurst) and the report from Cornell's Human Dimensions Research Unit.

the data based results I've read so far were mixed.  basically almost half were accepting of buck take restrictions and would pass on (protect) younger bucks to have a chance at shooting a bigger deer which they would like.  a good portion doesn't support restrictions and supports freedom of choice regardless of age or size.  then a substantial portion somehow supports freedom of choice regardless of age and size but is willing to pass on younger bucks thinking they should be protected.  my guess is these people believe in choice but most within their group don't harvest younger bucks (1.5 yr olds) anyway or some similar situation.  the conclusion so far that i've got is a majority of NY hunters believe we should be protecting 1.5 yr old young bucks but a majority are either on the fence or don't support state restrictions for protection.  seems a little silly but various deeper reasoning may have driven answer to the surveys.  i don't really have actual survey questions.

 

DEC sat on this for a while and would probably still be.  it's only available now due to a FOIL request being filed.

 

moral of the story save 1.5 yr old bucks for first time hunters or your pops who doesn't have many seasons of hunting left and go after relatively older bucks.  DEC doesn't have to worry about restrictions that make some feel all bent over and can instead focus more on better monitoring and control of population.  then add the other critters and stuff they deal with.

 

[nyslowhand]

Aside from the mixed survey findings, did anyone notice the very small responses the results were based on???

 

Recycled that issue of NYON, but if I recall correctly - About 6700 random (??) hunters were given the survey and ~2500 responded. Pretty small sampling of NY hunters to base any future legislation on.

 

Just in case everyone isn't aware, Cornell's Dept of Natural Resources and its' Human Dimensions Unit get huge funding from the state (DEC) annually and to do these types of reports & surveys. IE; Whitetail Mgmt Plan, this survey, etc. So their interpretation of these findings may not be completely unbiased.

[growalot]

Any survey can be steered in one direction or another in the way the question is written and or presented, what question  precedes and follows certain questions...I would like to see the survey.

[dbHunterNY]

Any survey can be steered in one direction or another in the way the question is written and or presented, what question  precedes and follows certain questions...I would like to see the survey.

 

 

Aside from the mixed survey findings, did anyone notice the very small responses the results were based on???

 

Recycled that issue of NYON, but if I recall correctly - About 6700 random (??) hunters were given the survey and ~2500 responded. Pretty small sampling of NY hunters to base any future legislation on.

 

Just in case everyone isn't aware, Cornell's Dept of Natural Resources and its' Human Dimensions Unit get huge funding from the state (DEC) annually and to do these types of reports & surveys. IE; Whitetail Mgmt Plan, this survey, etc. So their interpretation of these findings may not be completely unbiased.

 

a bit harder muddy results when you see the raw findings.  I agree though by the time I make it to the DEC report it'll probably won't make much of any sense with the results I've read.  I'd copy the text but it's all protected...

 

"We used the entire statewide data set and did not weight the data.  Note that the number of respondents used in the discriminant analysis (n=1792) is less than the total number of respondents because the analysis only included those respondents who answered all of the questions used in it.  There were also respondents who indicated that they were "unsure" on whether they thought yearling bucks should receive further protection (Question 14) and these were omitted from the analysis. ....."

 

effort made definitely muddied things from the start.

 

[jjb4900]

I don't think we need the statistical breakdown...the bottom line is that that the wants of NY hunters is so varied that DEC can't come to a decision as what to do to make everyone happy.

[Larry]

I'm glad I'm not going to be sitting on there side of the table when they hold there meetings  

Edited July 3, 2015 by Larry

[gjs4]

The only person I heard of getting a survey in my area- which holds the highest concentration of hunters- didn't buy a license last year and only had one prior. Everything about the survey- methods, unavailable to be shared, quiet concealed results, wonky questions should have eye brows raised.... But oh wait- they didn't care before or after.... Just wasting time and money (think of the cheaper alternates that would get more participation).... Caring about deer is sort of like spending money on a Republican Governors campaign here.... Great effort , known different and disgusting result where you scratch your head and wondered why do they make it seem like there is even a chance for something good to happen.?.......

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[thphm]

You have to be pretty darn good to tell the age of a deer as 1-1/2 years old, you cannot tell by the amount of points on it's antlers or it's size the best way I can see is by the shape of it's body.Example right now I have 2 bucks both born a little over a year ago on my property, still in velvet.One is a spike and the other one looks like it will be at least a 4 pointer and both have the same size bodies.Others on this site have said they have 4 pointers that are 1 year old on there property. .Any thing less then a 6 pointer let it walk. If you are a meat hunter shoot more does, that is what the DEC wants anyway.

[Larry]

I got a survey sent it in to

[dbHunterNY]

You have to be pretty darn good to tell the age of a deer as 1-1/2 years old, you cannot tell by the amount of points on it's antlers or it's size the best way I can see is by the shape of it's body.Example right now I have 2 bucks both born a little over a year ago on my property, still in velvet.One is a spike and the other one looks like it will be at least a 4 pointer and both have the same size bodies.Others on this site have said they have 4 pointers that are 1 year old on there property. .Any thing less then a 6 pointer let it walk. If you are a meat hunter shoot more does, that is what the DEC wants anyway.

 

we've had a small basket racked 7 pointer that to some would be considered an 8 pt that was 100% without doubt a 1.5 yr old.  have had many 6 pointers that were also 1.5 years old.  loads of bucks with less points.  some speak of mythical advise that a buck grows 2 point per year of age but that's just not true.  body characteristics is the best way.  chances are if the spread of it's rack is well within its ears then it's a good possibility it's a 1.5 yr old, but absolutely antlers is not a sure way to judge.  no matter the age class, if judging a buck in the field is the intent, all physical characteristics should be considered.

[G-Man]

So all this begs the question , when has the age of a deer taken become that important? You hear age structure for the benefit of the herd,but the herd has done fine without this age structure for 100 years. Plenty of deer to shoot and eat

it's time people wake up and realise you cannot stockpile big bucks they are territorial and will keep others off their home range, older deer are smart and have learned to avoid hunters.if you own 10 acres the chance of you getting a trophy buck is minimal Esp if the land use around you is packed with other hunters, nys is not comparable to other states for two main reasons, hunter density and land use. Stop watching the media hype on big bucks and learn to enjoy the hunt, or save up your $$ and hunt elsewhere.

[Pygmy]

So all this begs the question , when has the age of a deer taken become that important? You hear age structure for the benefit of the herd,but the herd has done fine without this age structure for 100 years. Plenty of deer to shoot and eat

it's time people wake up and realise you cannot stockpile big bucks they are territorial and will keep others off their home range, older deer are smart and have learned to avoid hunters.if you own 10 acres the chance of you getting a trophy buck is minimal Esp if the land use around you is packed with other hunters, nys is not comparable to other states for two main reasons, hunter density and land use. Stop watching the media hype on big bucks and learn to enjoy the hunt, or save up your $$ and hunt elsewhere.

 

AY-men  !!  Best post I've seen on here in a long time  !!

[NFA-ADK]

It's hard to get a trophy in NY but not impossible.  If you look at www.nyantler.com or www.adkhunter.com you will see a bunch of trophies.  We might not have the mass on the antlers due to soil quality and do not have a high population of mature buck but we do have them.  They are like ghost and if you ever get one or have hunted a deer that's 4 years old you know how stealthy and adept at avoiding danger they can be, it is the reason they survive and usually die of old age. 

 

I have 3 trophies all from the ADK but only one would be considered a trophy by most standards.  I would not trade any of my ADK bucks for any other deer.  Trophy is in the eyes of the shooter, make every time you shoot a trophy and you will never be disappointed. 

 

Or you can take G-mans advice and save up for a hunt.  I agree G-man it was not broken before but this is what hunters have asked for, a better balanced herd with more mature bucks.  So they can sit on the porch and shoot their trophy. 

[dbHunterNY]

So all this begs the question , when has the age of a deer taken become that important? You hear age structure for the benefit of the herd,but the herd has done fine without this age structure for 100 years. Plenty of deer to shoot and eat

it's time people wake up and realise you cannot stockpile big bucks they are territorial and will keep others off their home range, older deer are smart and have learned to avoid hunters.if you own 10 acres the chance of you getting a trophy buck is minimal Esp if the land use around you is packed with other hunters, nys is not comparable to other states for two main reasons, hunter density and land use. Stop watching the media hype on big bucks and learn to enjoy the hunt, or save up your $$ and hunt elsewhere.

 

the second part I agree with but the first part... damn.  this isn't the big buck meca some places are with 130+" bucks running all over the place.  also what you said, hunter density and property size is smaller with less big rack opportunity and less mineral rich dirt.  the logical next step is to try and take an older deer with your hunting buddies to add to the experience versus going after a big rack that's not there.  even is the main stream media they're leaning toward this.  one reason everybody knows is age is the cheapest and most efficient way to get big bone no matter what else is going on.

your reasoning in my opinion doesn't work to say age structure and things have worked for 100 years and will continue to do so.  mentality was different back then and now the push to shoot more and more doe is readily apparent.  to keep up with this harvest pressure a deer herd has to be a baby fawn factory or numbers will go down and less bucks will be born to hunt in the future.  to be the most productive a herd has to have a good population of 1.5 yr old bucks to get it done and natural selection to take place.  this is separate that people seem to ignore because all they care about is antlers.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

There are trophy size deer..as in inches..in most woodlots and farms. The idea is to have the desire to go where they are and the biggest catch is...You have to know how to..Hunt Them.

 

If thats your desire anyways...any other deer..Pretty simple!

[grampy]

Most experienced hunters, who have good woods skills, will be able to shoot a buck older than one and a half years old, most anywhere in NY state. Take the time to learn about your quarry and get back into the woods a bit farther than the next guy. If shooting an older buck is what you want, then learn to be a better hunter! The older bucks are out there if you want them!

 

I have no problem with any hunter that just wants to step into the woods and shoot the first legal deer that comes along. But some of the hunters that say they would like to shoot a buck older than one and a half, could do so more often if they just became more skilled at hunting older bucks. DEC can change all the regulations they want, and it still will not make you a better hunter!   

Edited July 7, 2015 by grampy

[dbHunterNY]

last year I hunted a 3.5 yr old buck that was coming in almost every day at 4:30pm.  i waited until rifle season, because i couldn't hunt him in the creek bottom without the wind letting him bust me.  based on camera pictures though i got so i could tell when the neighbors were bowhunting as he'd show up 30-45 mins later to get around 4-5 of them.  he was 40 yards from one hunters stand at least a dozen times and the hunter never saw him.  a hot doe and one hunters change in schedule finally got him in the wrong place at the wrong time.  he died several hundred yards away heading toward me on the same route he always took.  he was only 3.5!!

[gjs4]

Most experienced hunters, who have good woods skills, will be able to shoot a buck older than one and a half years old, most anywhere in NY state. Take the time to learn about your quarry and get back into the woods a bit farther than the next guy. If shooting an older buck is what you want, then learn to be a better hunter! The older bucks are out there if you want them!

I have no problem with any hunter that just wants to step into the woods and shoot the first legal deer that comes along. But some of the hunters that say they would like to shoot a buck older than one and a half, could do so more often if they just became more skilled at hunting older bucks. DEC can change all the regulations they want, and it still will not make you a better hunter!

Great post.

It seems most NYers and many members rather ruin an apology for not understanding their behavior is the problem with an excuse for another guys.....

[gjs4]

Think some of you could change your signature lines to "I am fine with killing tomorrow's trophy today" and "NY has no big bucks where I can hunt .... Just on posted or leased ground".

[jjb4900]

Think some of you could change your signature lines to "I am fine with killing tomorrow's trophy today" and "NY has no big bucks where I can hunt .... Just on posted or leased ground".

how about "shove your trophy up your ass, I'll hunt for the reasons I hunt and you hunt for the reasons you hunt"?

[BellR]

Think some of you could change your signature lines to "I am fine with killing tomorrow's trophy today" and "NY has no big bucks where I can hunt .... Just on posted or leased ground".

Or perhaps you could change yours to, "I feel as though everyone should be forced to trophy hunt because that's what I want to do."

Edited July 7, 2015 by BellR

[Doc]

Most experienced hunters, who have good woods skills, will be able to shoot a buck older than one and a half years old, most anywhere in NY state. Take the time to learn about your quarry and get back into the woods a bit farther than the next guy. If shooting an older buck is what you want, then learn to be a better hunter! The older bucks are out there if you want them!

 

I have no problem with any hunter that just wants to step into the woods and shoot the first legal deer that comes along. But some of the hunters that say they would like to shoot a buck older than one and a half, could do so more often if they just became more skilled at hunting older bucks. DEC can change all the regulations they want, and it still will not make you a better hunter!   

 

I do agree that the DEC cannot regulate that you become more skilled at hunting, and a lot of this AR crap seems to indicate that there are people who believe they can and should. We have to come to grips with the fact that we as hunters consist of every level of skill, opportunity, and set of goals. That's how it is and how it will always be. We are not all experienced. We do not all hunt in "buck-rich" parts of the state. And we all have different things that hunting means to us. There seems to be something inherently wrong with adopting regulations that benefit only a certain portion (most likely even the minority) of the hunter population that have all of these things.

[G-Man]

I do agree that the DEC cannot regulate that you become more skilled at hunting, and a lot of this AR crap seems to indicate that there are people who believe they can and should. We have to come to grips with the fact that we as hunters consist of every level of skill, opportunity, and set of goals. That's how it is and how it will always be. We are not all experienced. We do not all hunt in "buck-rich" parts of the state. And we all have different things that hunting means to us. There seems to be something inherently wrong with adopting regulations that benefit only a certain portion (most likely even the minority) of the hunter population that have all of these things.

unfortunately that has become the standard of all decisions lately the smaller the group the louder the voice they have it. Seems,everyone evolves as a hunter, it takes time and accumulated knowledge, unfortunately the media of today shows antler crazed 20 and 30 somethings on huge leases or private land holding shooting monsters with 1 or two hunters per square mile. When the reality in new York is 30 acre parcels being average and 50 or more acres making you a land barron. Hunter densities are 20 higher than the hunts you see on tv.

Big bucks get big by being smart, ar's in a high hunter density will only high grade the herd in a short amount of time,and we WILL be over run with giant 4pts and 6pt as they will be left as all your best 8pt and 10 pts are shot as 2 year-olds if not as yearlings.

if the state wants to implement ar's on all Stateline that's fine, I know for the 8 grand plus I pay for my recreational land they better give me a tax break as I would not be able to supplement my meat if I was restricted in what I shot.

as for tomorow trophy today, if all you shot was 130 in plus is that a trophy? Or will that be the average and now you require more to make it a trophy, perhaps 170 in , where does it stop? I know many new hunters who are greatly impressed with their 1st trophy spike, or 4 pt, a trophy is different to many people, if you want a "book" buck go buy one, and don't give the response well kids and elderly can shoot what they want, what about the spouse that is in their thirties who decides to take up the sport to spend more time with their significant other? The Co worker who hears. You talk about hunting all the time that wants to give it a try? If a big buck is what you want pass up all the deer you want and wait for one,they are out there . I find more big buck skulls that die of old age or were never seen more than 1 or 2x in daylight, I hope your hunting skills are up to the challenge, older deer bucks and doe can avoid a hunter with uncanny ability, especially in pressured areas.

Perhaps a trip to Canada or mid west where you may be the only hunter a deer as seen in years will help your mad hunting skills, myself I'll take what I can and if I get a nice one every few years or 1 a decade I'll appreciate it more for the rarity a harvest like that brings.

Edited July 8, 2015 by G-Man

[G-Man]

A good reason for shooting what you want.. http:// www.youtube.com youtu.be/-JUOW6btsRw