Taking of young bucks does it really make sense?

[HuntNfish100]

I hunt in Washington County, many farms, I am only speaking of my hunting area and certainly cannot make comment on other areas of NYS.

 

I've been hunting for 52 years.  The good old days were truly were good. Back then when I was a kid - young man, I was hunting in Columbia County an area of many farms.  

 

So called, "big" bucks were much more plentiful back then from what I see today on the farm in Washington County.  My neighbor farm friends tell me what hunting was like in the area back in the 60's and 70's.  It was the same as my hunting in Columbia County.  The fact is today I see doe and young bucks, I do not see the big bucks.  During the rut, we use to see bucks on the farm and certainly in fields and crossing streets at dusk and nightime.

 

 My simple definition of a big buck is one of 8 points or more, about 3 years old or more.  The area produced 10 pointers and every once in awhile the really big boys were taken.  Those days are over.

 

Simply stated dead young bucks do not grow up to be big bucks.  One really big buck can produce dozens of sons with the same gene potential as him.  When young bucks are taken, you are deystroying the future gene pool of big racks and bucks.

 

As hunting pressure has increased in the last 30 years, I believe too many young bucks are being removed.  We are left with only a few big bucks.

 

There is plenty of evidence that farming have changed over the years.  For instance soybeans are popular in some states and these states produce really big bucks.  We can't force farmers to grow soybeans so what is the alternative?  So, more of the same? or do we alter the present the present policy in order to get a benefit for years to follow.

 

 During the hunt season I sometimes see these young bucks hanging from a tree or just inside the barn.  They are almost always young bucks.  Years ago in the 60's and early 70's we saw 8, 10, 12 pointers hanging.  Sure 8 pointers were more common than the 12's but you get the idea.  Today I see very few 8 pointers hanging up.

 

If there was a minimum antler size law in effect of let's say 8 points, in a few years we would have 8 pointers roaming around for the take.  In other words, give the young bucks a chance to get to the 8 point range.  In a few years, instead of taking the young bucks you would be taking 8 pointers in almost the same numbers.

 

I'M IN THE MINORITY.  In a recent DEC survey hunters voted to continue the present system - take whatever you want.

 

I FULLY UNDERSTAND MANY OF YOU WANT TO TAKE A BUCK NO MATTER WHAT AGE.  I UNDERSTAND.  So please do not curse me as some old guy that wants to limit your chances.  I am suggesting that if we take a three year break from taking young bucks we can all enjoy hunting and taking much more mature bucks with big racks.  I'm not alone there are many hunters that would prefer a minimum rack policy.

 

On the Northfork of Long Island there is a very high density of deer maybe one of the highest in the state.  I have seen huge bucks during the rut. Many of the really big boys travel along the cliffs of the Sound, I've seen them while fishing in November usually around sunset.  I've never seen one in my yard, I live one minute from the Sound.  However, I've seen doe and young bucks.  The really big bucks don't come into the neighborhood they do visit the farms along Sound Avenue at night. The problem is there is no way to hunt them.  Access is extremely limited.  Bow hunting is the method.  If all these bucks were taken as young deer they would not grow into the big boys.  That is why we see so many 8 pointers and larger, an I mean  alot larger.  Anyone that knows the Northfork know some of the biggest bucks in NYS are taken on the Northfork, and why not?  When young bucks grow up to the 3 year plus range they become big bucks.

 

I'm in favor of a minimum "point" policy for taking of bucks.

[G-Man]

Well farming practices have changed, gone are the big farms that had few hunters,

Habitat,is the most overlooked factor in harboring deer, allowing them to make it through a season has grown up and is now open woods,gone are the hedgerows that let deer escape and live another day, ownership of property has become smaller and smaller pieces, and pressure has increased, I pay over 9 grand a year in taxes for my hunting property, I manage my own property within the dec laws. I have no problem for ar's on public land, but private? No way, thousands of good bucks are taken every year, so my question to you is what have you done to better the habitat you hunt to hold, attract, and allow safe areas for bucks and does to mature???? Passing up a small buck in an open Woodlot is not helping and the attitude that it will change hunting for the better is a misnomer, how many small buck have you taken in your life? I get you want bigger d bucks now, I do as well but I matured into that as a hunter and constantly make it harder on myself ,using flit lock pistol, traditional bow, I would love to try a spear but it's not legal. Every animal I take is a trophy to me regardless of points, age, or color variation.

[thphm]

I'm in favor of a minimum "point" policy for taking of bucks.

 

X2 ,It might be something that comes with age.I too have hunted on Long Island and the NZ and Catskills where I now reside. I have surfcasted just about every bit of open shoreline on L.I. and have seen these deer in the wee hours of the morning.1st. off I do not have to have venison every year to survive, so I do not have to shoot  a deer every year.I let em go and let em grow.I had one that was born on the property and let him go every year, the last I have seen him he was a 10 pointer with a good size body. If he is still alive I do not know, but it was a pleasure seeing him in the same area every year sporting a new rack with more tines. 

 

[G-Man]

To the guys who want a minimum.point , how many deer have you shot in your career hunting that would.not make a point policy if it was in place then? How may deer did you shoot where you counted the points before you shot?

Just wondErin as I know I have shot most of my bucks without counting points and have a couple dozen that would not of.made a point minimum or given me a chance to count before I shot, each of them hold a fond memory for me though, I would hate to deny the chance for someone to make a memory for themselves because I wanted something bigger....

[Lawdwaz]

I hunt in Washington County, many farms, I am only speaking of my hunting area and certainly cannot make comment on other areas of NYS.

 

I've been hunting for 52 years.  The good old days were truly were good. Back then when I was a kid - young man, I was hunting in Columbia County an area of many farms.  

 

So called, "big" bucks were much more plentiful back then from what I see today on the farm in Washington County.  My neighbor farm friends tell me what hunting was like in the area back in the 60's and 70's.  It was the same as my hunting in Columbia County.  The fact is today I see doe and young bucks, I do not see the big bucks.  During the rut, we use to see bucks on the farm and certainly in fields and crossing streets at dusk and nightime.

 

 My simple definition of a big buck is one of 8 points or more, about 3 years old or more.  The area produced 10 pointers and every once in awhile the really big boys were taken.  Those days are over.

 

Simply stated dead young bucks do not grow up to be big bucks.  One really big buck can produce dozens of sons with the same gene potential as him.  When young bucks are taken, you are deystroying the future gene pool of big racks and bucks.

 

As hunting pressure has increased in the last 30 years, I believe too many young bucks are being removed.  We are left with only a few big bucks.

 

There is plenty of evidence that farming have changed over the years.  For instance soybeans are popular in some states and these states produce really big bucks.  We can't force farmers to grow soybeans so what is the alternative?  So, more of the same? or do we alter the present the present policy in order to get a benefit for years to follow.

 

 During the hunt season I sometimes see these young bucks hanging from a tree or just inside the barn.  They are almost always young bucks.  Years ago in the 60's and early 70's we saw 8, 10, 12 pointers hanging.  Sure 8 pointers were more common than the 12's but you get the idea.  Today I see very few 8 pointers hanging up.

 

If there was a minimum antler size law in effect of let's say 8 points, in a few years we would have 8 pointers roaming around for the take.  In other words, give the young bucks a chance to get to the 8 point range.  In a few years, instead of taking the young bucks you would be taking 8 pointers in almost the same numbers.

 

I'M IN THE MINORITY.  In a recent DEC survey hunters voted to continue the present system - take whatever you want.

 

I FULLY UNDERSTAND MANY OF YOU WANT TO TAKE A BUCK NO MATTER WHAT AGE.  I UNDERSTAND.  So please do not curse me as some old guy that wants to limit your chances.  I am suggesting that if we take a three year break from taking young bucks we can all enjoy hunting and taking much more mature bucks with big racks.  I'm not alone there are many hunters that would prefer a minimum rack policy.

 

On the Northfork of Long Island there is a very high density of deer maybe one of the highest in the state.  I have seen huge bucks during the rut. Many of the really big boys travel along the cliffs of the Sound, I've seen them while fishing in November usually around sunset.  I've never seen one in my yard, I live one minute from the Sound.  However, I've seen doe and young bucks.  The really big bucks don't come into the neighborhood they do visit the farms along Sound Avenue at night. The problem is there is no way to hunt them.  Access is extremely limited.  Bow hunting is the method.  If all these bucks were taken as young deer they would not grow into the big boys.  That is why we see so many 8 pointers and larger, an I mean  alot larger.  Anyone that knows the Northfork know some of the biggest bucks in NYS are taken on the Northfork, and why not?  When young bucks grow up to the 3 year plus range they become big bucks.

 

I'm in favor of a minimum "point" policy for taking of bucks.

 

Well if you've been at it for 52 years you must have stacked up some pretty good 8's and 10's in the first 20 years. 

 

Yes/no?

 

How about the last 30 years, what have you killed?

 

[greensider]

you must not be paying attention most of the south east part of ny is now antler point restricted  and seems to be a growing trend

[BUCKANDAQUARTER]

I hunt Washington county and I understand where the OP is coming from. Hunters here shoot the spots off em. Many of these same hunters want to shoot mature bucks but don't pass up yearlings.

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[SteveB]

I'm in favor of a minimum "point" policy for taking of bucks.

Regardless of age of the buck?

[jjb4900]

young bucks, like 1.5 - 2 years old?.........yes, it's been making sense to me forever.

[grampy]

I have said this before. If you are not happy with killing small bucks, become a better hunter. Not many areas in NY that don't have at least a few three and a half year old bucks. Perhaps hunting the OLD way just doesn't cut it anymore? Learn new skills, change tactics, become a better hunter. Older, bigger bucks are still out there! Changing DEC hunting regulations will not make you a better hunter!

[WNYBuckHunter]

 

 

 

If there was a minimum antler size law in effect of let's say 8 points, in a few years we would have 8 pointers roaming around for the take.  In other words, give the young bucks a chance to get to the 8 point range.  In a few years, instead of taking the young bucks you would be taking 8 pointers in almost the same numbers.

 

 

Biggest misconception going. Just behind it is that you have any control over the gene pool of a wild herd (unless its FSW we are talking about, and he is releasing farm raised bucks into the wild).

 

[G-Man]

If there was a minimum antler size law in effect of let's say 8 points, in a few years we would have 8 pointers roaming around for the take. In other words, give the young bucks a chance to get to the 8 point range. In a few years, instead of taking the young bucks you would be taking 8 pointers in almost the same numbers.

So if you shoot only 8 pt and bigger, especially in high hunter density areas you will promote very large 6pt and smaller as they are un touchable, it's called highgrading, we even do that to our timber, take out the good lumber trees and leave the junk, eventually all you have is junk, it's big mature but will never be a top dollar lumber tree. 90% of nys is hygraded timber.,

Instead, let people who are happy with "junk" kill little deer and you can keep.passing up the perfect litter 8 and 10 pt and let them get bigger and then shoot one when it reaches your size minimum....

[BUCKANDAQUARTER]

I have said this before. If you are not happy with killing small bucks, become a better hunter. Not many areas in NY that don't have at least a few three and a half year old bucks. Perhaps hunting the OLD way just doesn't cut it anymore? Learn new skills, change tactics, become a better hunter. Older, bigger bucks are still out there!

That is easy for the person with the right property, such as myself. I like the challenge of going after mature deer and I hunt the right piece of property (or next to it rather!). Many areas around here you can just plain forget about if you want to shoot a mature buck.... especially public land. Skills are one thing but it all starts with territory.

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Edited September 28, 2015 by BUCKANDAQUARTER

[nyantler]

That is easy for the person with the right property, such as myself. I like the challenge of going after mature deer and I hunt the right piece of property (or next to it rather!). Many areas around here you can just plain forget about if you want to shoot a mature buck.... especially public land. Skills are one thing but it all starts with territory.

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Not true in my experience... I've killed mature bucks on every property I've ever hunted. Even places where other hunters said they hadn't seen any bucks. You have to know where to look for them or have some snow to pick up a track. Grampy is right on point about how to consistently kill or at least be on and see mature bucks. You have to adapt to whatever the territory has to offer... IF, in fact, your goal is to kill mature bucks then you must lose the small buck mentality. I've killed plenty of mature bucks on public land, usually in farther than most hunters want to go. Skills are everything when talking about killer big bucks consistently. Anyone can kill one by accident... even on public land. It happens all the time, the record books are loaded with accidental encounters on public property bucks. The reason many hunters feel the way you do is because they lack the abilities and skills needed to consistently encounter a buck at all, let alone a mature bucks. Hence the reason many hunters are managing their properties for bigger bucks. The only way they'll ever see one is to make sure they grow enough of them to increase the odds.

[jjb4900]

Not true in my experience... I've killed mature bucks on every property I've ever hunted. Even places where other hunters said they hadn't seen any bucks. You have to know where to look for them or have some snow to pick up a track. Grampy is right on point about how to consistently kill or at least be on and see mature bucks. You have to adapt to whatever the territory has to offer... IF, in fact, your goal is to kill mature bucks then you must lose the small buck mentality. I've killed plenty of mature bucks on public land, usually in farther than most hunters want to go. Skills are everything when talking about killer big bucks consistently. Anyone can kill one by accident... even on public land. It happens all the time, the record books are loaded with accidental encounters on public property bucks. The reason many hunters feel the way you do is because they lack the abilities and skills needed to consistently encounter a buck at all, let alone a mature bucks. Hence the reason many hunters are managing their properties for bigger bucks. The only way they'll ever see one is to make sure they grow enough of them to increase the odds.

I totally agree, I KNOW there are big mature bucks on the public land we hunt......however trophy hunting is not my priority, not to mention I don't usually have the time to devote to holding out for one, but for those who do, the opportunities are definitely there.

[grampy]

No matter where you are hunting, if a buck survives his first hunting season, he will be much harder to hunt the next. And each year he survives he is that uch harder to kill. It takes a certain mindset and a degree of accumulated skill to figure out how these bucks survive and what makes them do what they do and when. I can say this they are masters of adaptation. And if you don't adapt with them your chances of killing mature deer consistently, are not good. More than anything it takes being in the woods and learning, trial and error, and the will to go the extra mile or miles if need be. And dedication to killing mature bucks, even if you have to eat your tag.

This dedication is not and should not be for every hunter. Every hunter needs to decide for themselves what deer they want to shoot, as any deer killed is a trophy in my eyes. They are beautiful animals! And every hunter should be proud of every deer they kill. It doesn't matter how big or how old it is. Buck or doe.

But to say there are no big bucks to kill, and only hunters with great private land and food plots can kill them is not true. I myself have done it on heavily hunted public land and know others have too. You too can do it! You just have to have the dedication, adaptation, skills and desire that most hunters are not willing to give to a casual activity.

[BUCKANDAQUARTER]

I don't agree... not all properties hold big bucks. And to make a blanket statement about the entire state isnt right. Hunt with the masses here and youll see.I shoot big deer on heavily pressured land every year. I know where they go when the pressure turns on. I have a pattern on serveral big bucks and know where they will tend doe year after year. I don't think the hunting is anywhere near its potential when people shoot yearlings.

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[greensider]

there are at least one or two 2 year olds on every piece of land at some point during the season especially during the rut but you have to be out there hunting hard all season to kill them if you kill a yearling then sit at home you will never see a bigger buck

[grampy]

I honestly respect your opinion BUCKANDAQUARTER. But there are more three and a half year old and older bucks out there than most hunters believe. All you have to do is find them.

[jjb4900]

there are at least one or two 2 year olds on every piece of land at some point during the season especially during the rut but you have to be out there hunting hard all season to kill them if you kill a yearling then sit at home you will never see a bigger buck

but if you don't give a sh@t if you ever kill a big buck, then why stay at home?......I could care less if I ever kill a big buck again, and could care even less if me passing up a younger buck affords someone else the opportunity to do so...unless they want to pay for my license.

[BUCKANDAQUARTER]

And I completely agree. I love a challenge! There are opportunities, but around here the good ol' boys put down a lot of small deer. But hey, whatever. Many are my friends haha. There is a butcher near me that cuts up like 90 percent yearlings and many of those guys complain about not shooting big deer. A) FIND the right place or make a pact with some adjoining properties to let them walk a year. Things will change. Or as greensider said wait and hope for the best. I have eaten my tags in the past. This county has major potential, and I can certainly understand where the OP is coming from.

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[nyantler]

I don't agree... not all properties hold big bucks. And to make a blanket statement about the entire state isnt right. Hunt with the masses here and youll see.I shoot big deer on heavily pressured land every year. I know where they go when the pressure turns on. I have a pattern on serveral big bucks and know where they will tend doe year after year. I don't think the hunting is anywhere near its potential when people shoot yearlings.

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You are right in that some properties aren't big enough to hold a mature buck... but public lands are usually quite vast and have plenty of places to hold a big buck. Yes, the guy who has a couple acres in his back yard, half of which is open field, will probably spend more time walking or sitting on his property than killing deer. But most habitats are much larger than a few acres and usually encompass many properties and will hold at least one mature buck.

If anything today is a much better time for big bucks given the number of hunters managing their properties and passing on younger bucks. In fact, more hunters are passing on young bucks in NY than ever before. Reaching full potential is like waiting for Utopia... it will never happen. Things can only get better for bigger bucks, which it already has. Like I always say, Killing deer or not killing deer has more to do with what a hunter is doing or not doing than where he is hunting.

[jjb4900]

I have nothing but respect for the guys who want nothing more than to kill big bucks, and will settle for nothing less...and I'm very sincere when I say that....and I almost understand their disgust at those who don't... but don't want to hear their "holier than thou" crap.....we all do it for different reasons, so let's take a break from the judgement passing.

[NFA-ADK]

No one is passing judgement.  If you like to shoot for meat or the joy of hunting more power to you.  They are just stating that these type of hunters tend to go the extra mile to get a big buck.  Much more than the average hunter will.  That's all.

[HuntNfish100]

I specifically wrote I was speaking of my hunt area, only.  I specifically stated that I know I was in the minority.  I also specifically stated that I understand the opposing point of view.

 

......

 

There are some good comments pro and con - that's what makes a good discussion.