I'm changing my stance on XBOWS

[WNYBuckHunter]

what's not to understand. he has very clearly stated that crossbows are good because people are lazy and they shouldn't have to work hard. It's the very reason this country is going to ****. people want things easier and quicker without having to work for it.

 

I've said it a 100 times. My favorite deer harvest ever was a doe I shot with a mz on public land down south. The challenge was the greatest I've ever had. New area/season/deer behavior, pressured land, all by myself you name it. I have never felt so grateful and accomplished. It's an amazing feeling and when hard work pays off.

 

I've shot plenty of doe on private land. I'm always happy, but this was different. For someone who doesn't understand this feeling, they'll never understand why we enjoy "challenge".

 

 

Sorry, but you painting anyone that would like to use a crossbow as lazy is just plain silly. I wouldnt call someone that works 60+ hours a week, has to maintain a household, kids, etc lazy because they want to hunt during archery season but dont have the time to practice much with a vertical bow. Not everyone has the same luxuries as you, some people do all of that on their own, and dont have a wife/husband to share the load. Other people have injuries that prevent them from practicing, etc. Doesnt make them lazy. Its the same deal as many people dont have the time to practice with a recurve, so they opt for a compound.

 

Id rather see people like that grab a crossbow and have a much better chance at putting a good shot on a deer rather than stick an arrow in the deer, have it run off and have the non hunting public see it walking around wounded with an arrow sticking out of its neck.

[Doc]

Sorry, but you painting anyone that would like to use a crossbow as lazy is just plain silly. I wouldnt call someone that works 60+ hours a week, has to maintain a household, kids, etc lazy because they want to hunt during archery season but dont have the time to practice much with a vertical bow. Not everyone has the same luxuries as you, some people do all of that on their own, and dont have a wife/husband to share the load. Other people have injuries that prevent them from practicing, etc. Doesnt make them lazy. Its the same deal as many people dont have the time to practice with a recurve, so they opt for a compound.

 

Id rather see people like that grab a crossbow and have a much better chance at putting a good shot on a deer rather than stick an arrow in the deer, have it run off and have the non hunting public see it walking around wounded with an arrow sticking out of its neck.

Yeah, this thread is getting a bit difficult to follow, but I believe you are crediting Belo with the "lazy" quote which is not one that he actually made.

 

I tried to track this comment back because something didn't seem quite the way I remembered it all. Anyway, here's the chronology :

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wolc123 (Actually a crossbow proponent) on post number 70 stated "There are plenty of deer to go around but they do deserve to be killed cleanly.  If the crossbow can help us "lazier"  folks do that, why keep them out?

 

To which jjb4900 replied on post no. 109 - "I don't understand why you equate ones "challenging" themselves with wounding deer"

 

To which Belo replied on post no. 125- "what's not to understand. he has very clearly stated that crossbows are good because people are lazy and they shouldn't have to work hard."

 

So if you are going to criticize someone for the "lazy" comment, you have to aim that criticism at your pro-crossbow compadre wolc123. That was the source not Belo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yup you do need a roadmap to follow this one.....lol. I hope I followed it all correctly. I hate to see a discussion side-tracked over a mistaken quote.

[Five Seasons]

Sorry, but you painting anyone that would like to use a crossbow as lazy is just plain silly. I wouldnt call someone that works 60+ hours a week, has to maintain a household, kids, etc lazy because they want to hunt during archery season but dont have the time to practice much with a vertical bow. Not everyone has the same luxuries as you, some people do all of that on their own, and dont have a wife/husband to share the load. Other people have injuries that prevent them from practicing, etc. Doesnt make them lazy. Its the same deal as many people dont have the time to practice with a recurve, so they opt for a compound.

 

Id rather see people like that grab a crossbow and have a much better chance at putting a good shot on a deer rather than stick an arrow in the deer, have it run off and have the non hunting public see it walking around wounded with an arrow sticking out of its neck.

 

I didn't say anyone using a crossbow was lazy. He said people should use it because they are lazy. don't put words in my mouth.

 

and to your second point... why have archery at all if there's "a chance" of wounding a deer. Why not just all rifle, all the time?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Belo

[Jmny]

I normally find these exchanges of hunting philosophies and methods entertaining. The first benefit one can derive is knowledge. Of course in a search for knowledge, one has to realize that information with a reference source, makes the information more than personal option. Unfortunately, many individuals present their personal opinions as factual. Make no mistake some people fail to verify information before believing it as truth. But this thread has brought up two other negative aspects. The inability to have a discussion( differing opinions) without name calling or the exchange of insults. The other is religion. I don't know how many different religions there are in the world, But I respect everyone's right to have a different religious belief. After all, ninety percent of us are a product of our environment. By this I mean your religious following was dependent on what your parents followed as their religion.

While I respect the differing religions I don't believe I should be subjected to someone trying to influence the train of thought of the group.

Sometimes we learn something that is factually true, other times we learn what sways the opinions of others. Be nice to get back to hunting subjects.

[tuckersdaddy]

Sharing our deer... good one. If you want it bad enough you can make the time. I have a 3 year old a 9 month old and a full-time job and I get it done. I sacrifice other things in my life because I want it that bad.

If you don't want it, you can wait till gun season and probably still do just fine. Assuming it's meat and not horns you're after right?

Hard workers should be helping lazier folks out you say? Please kindly move to the side and cast your vote for Bernie Sanders. We are done here.

sometimes there simply not enough hours in the day. when my kids were toddlers time was more plentiful. you will see in a few years when kids 7:30 bed time turns into I hope we get home from practice or scouts by 9. when you trade opening weekend and 2 others to watch your daughters softball tournaments, or you end up working 2 jobs so you can have your kids participate in those activities... it's good to see the passion fueling these debates , but it appears there is a selfishness of some hunters that a particular season belongs to them because they choose to use one implement over another that operate on the same principle. and yes it is the same... insert arrow, draw, line up sites, pull the trigger. so if having a stock on a bow allows me or anyone the ability for whatever reason to spend more time in the field the answer should always be yes.

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[Doc]

sometimes there simply not enough hours in the day. when my kids were toddlers time was more plentiful. you will see in a few years when kids 7:30 bed time turns into I hope we get home from practice or scouts by 9. when you trade opening weekend and 2 others to watch your daughters softball tournaments, or you end up working 2 jobs so you can have your kids participate in those activities... it's good to see the passion fueling these debates , but it appears there is a selfishness of some hunters that a particular season belongs to them because they choose to use one implement over another that operate on the same principle. and yes it is the same... insert arrow, draw, line up sites, pull the trigger. so if having a stock on a bow allows me or anyone the ability for whatever reason to spend more time in the field the answer should always be yes.

If your priorities don't allow the time to master your weapon, I think it is probably not the method of hunting for you. Time doesn't allow me to utilize all the hunting opportunities that are available. That's just the way life is constructed. But I don't feel that everyone need to move over and make way for my personal schedule. But then that's just me.

 

Now in terms of your "selfishness" comment that crossbow proponents are so fond of using, now that you have successfully shoved your way into bow season, it will be interesting to see how magnanimous you people are when the muzzleloaders step into "your" season. Although, you may actually have more common ground with them than I am thinking. I know you have no alignments with the concepts that bowhunting was originally created for, so perhaps you will welcome all kinds of firearms or anything other than those time-consuming bows into your new bow season.

 

[tuckersdaddy]

If your priorities don't allow the time to master your weapon, I think it is probably not the method of hunting for you. Time doesn't allow me to utilize all the hunting opportunities that are available. That's just the way life is constructed. But I don't feel that everyone need to move over and make way for my personal schedule. But then that's just me.

Now in terms of your "selfishness" comment that crossbow proponents are so fond of using, now that you have successfully shoved your way into bow season, it will be interesting to see how magnanimous you people are when the muzzleloaders step into "your" season. Although, you may actually have more common ground with them than I am thinking. I know you have no alignments with the concepts that bowhunting was originally created for, so perhaps you will welcome all kinds of firearms or anything other than those time-consuming bows into your new bow season.

yes it was created for primitive pursuit... and that is exactly what a cross bow is.. cap and ball gun as well. my head shaker is the assumption that the compound is primitive. seeing some of these new bows, lighted pins, digital sights there is more technology in these bows then I have in my old ford pick-up. if the season was long/recurve I might look at it differently... but then again the 100 voices that use them would make no sound against the masses. so I stick with... if it allows more people to get in the field, it's good for the sport.

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[Five Seasons]

sometimes there simply not enough hours in the day. when my kids were toddlers time was more plentiful. you will see in a few years when kids 7:30 bed time turns into I hope we get home from practice or scouts by 9. when you trade opening weekend and 2 others to watch your daughters softball tournaments, or you end up working 2 jobs so you can have your kids participate in those activities... it's good to see the passion fueling these debates , but it appears there is a selfishness of some hunters that a particular season belongs to them because they choose to use one implement over another that operate on the same principle. and yes it is the same... insert arrow, draw, line up sites, pull the trigger. so if having a stock on a bow allows me or anyone the ability for whatever reason to spend more time in the field the answer should always be yes.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

it really only takes a few hours a week tops to train with your bow. Start in august when you can shoot till almost 9 at night. shoot a dozen or so arrows 2 nights a week. when you feel good about where you're at during the season, shoot a 1/2 dozen arrows or so once a week to keep the rust off during the season.

 

What this means is you might have to make a choice between having a beer with buddies after work, reading that book or watching that game or show. Again, I'll ask what do you want more? My last season and 2 seasons prior were very much shortened by the births of my sons. I didn't whine about it. It's life. If you can spend any amount of time hunting, you certainly have time to practice.

 

I'm truly sorry you have/had to work 2 jobs or just don't have the free time others do. But I guess that's where America's heading right? If I can't do it, either A. Make it easier for me or B. Limit those who do.

[Jmny]

Well, I finally was able to take the time and develop the patience to pursue factual information to show how distorted the views of the legislators and some on this site members are about the use of crossbows.

I use both a crossbow and muzzleloader.

The crossbow is a Barnett 410. I believe this to be the second fastest bow on the market.( for those concerned the fastest the Scoryd -175 # ( Orion & Vtec) 440 fps and 173 ke. With my crossbow I shoot an arrow that weighs 425 grains, 22" lenth, 2" vanes.

The following are the statistical information on the performance of my crossbow- ( distance, feet per second-speed, kinetic energy, and ARROW DROP).

0 yards- 410fps,158ke, 0

10 yards- 406fps,155ke, -1"

20 yards- 402fps,152ke, -4"

30 yards- 398fps,149ke, -10"

40 yards- 374fps,146ke, -17"

50 yards- 366fps,143ke, -28"

Now let's compare the second fastest crossbow with my muzzleloader Thompson/ Center omega 50 caliber. My ammunition used is a 45 caliber hornady sst bullet in a sabot with 120 grains of buckhorn 209 powder.

This has the following performance statisics:

Bullet speed of 2200fps

2" high at 100 hundred yards

4 " low at 200 yards. And still has,a kinetic energy of 1,285 foot pounds.

Now let's compare the cross bow to the muzzleloader.

Speed: 2,000 feet per second muzzleloader to 410 fps cross bow.

Drop: 4 inches @ 200 yards,muzzleloader to 28" @ 50 yards for the crossbow.

Energy @ 200 yards still has 1,285ke (foot pounds), 2nd fastest bow only has

143 KE at 50

And they are similar how? Maybe it's their comparable weight?

SOURCE: Gunnersden.com

Bestcrossbowsource.com

Both these websites are a great source for both the gun and archery enthusiasts

[Core]

 

As for the wounding and losing deer, I suspect it is more the lack of training and mentors that a lot of the new hunters have. I have been seeing a lot of "urban/hipsters" take up hunting because eating what you have raised/killed is cool now for some. While a large number take it very serious and learn as much as they can, a lot also just go thru the motion of sitting in the classes and buy the equipment needed and just go out into the woods. I think one possible solution to this would be mandatory mentorship to all new hunters. Say they need to hunt under a seasoned hunter for two years before being allowed to hunt alone, no matter what age they are.

I wouldn't classify myself as a hipster, but I am a suburbanite. I really would have loved a mentor, but if you put that requirement in you're going to see even less hunters. I had a bad hit this year, but I also threw myself into this with a dedication I know most don't. Hour upon hour at the range practicing, time reading, time in the woods, never tried to buy my deer with silly tricks, but I did spend a lot of money on equipment that definitely helps (e.g. range finder). I think a good mentor could have saved me about half my trips, many of which were spent walking around crunchy woods and spooking deer like a fool.

 

I was surprised to read in some large study of recovered bow deer that the percentage of deer recovered from bow is close to that of gun. I don't know if it's true, but it makes sense in a way. I think about the deer I had within bow range this year. I believe with a shotgun all would have been immediately taken without any issue. However, I have a neighbor who had to chase a deer onto somebody's yard last year after a bad shot with his shotgun and finish it with a knife. I have a co-worker who goes out once/year with a shotgun and last year he missed a deer. He is barely a hunter. He puts no time in at all out of season, sights in the night before, then sits on a buddy's land over a food plot one day and that's all he does.

 

There's no doubt for a lot of people a crossbow is a better killing tool than a bow, like a gun is better than the crossbow,  but I think the reality is that people will realize it is better and just take further and further shots. Imagine if all shotgun hunters waited until the deer were within bow range? Recovery rates would be incredible. But they don't; or imagine if all rifle hunters waited until the deer are within shotgun range, but they bought the rifle to extend what they can do and expand their radius.

 

The first crossbow I saw at my range was this past week. A guy was sighting in to go hunting. In the past he was a bow hunter--and still kind of is. He has his bow at 50 lbs (I said he should lower it) and after practicing even 20 arrows his shoulder is toast. So a guy like that, who can't even practice with the bow but hasn't quite given it up (but probably should) is not putting in enough time to be a good shot, so his odds of wounding deer are very high IMO. But with the crossbow he can hit as hard as an 8 year old could. But as Doc mentions if the goal is more effective weapons, even crossbows should be banned and limit everyone to rifles.

 

I do understand that compound bows are only getting faster very slowly over time now, because the human body is the limit on them once they get near 100% efficiency. My guess without studying is that crossbows will keep getting more powerful. With a winched bow I think in theory the KE from one could be in the hundreds of lbs, because you could sit there spinning the winch for a minute or two as these ridiculous limbs are getting cranked down under insane pressure.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Core

[CFHunter]

I wouldn't classify myself as a hipster, but I am a suburbanite. I really would have loved a mentor, but if you put that requirement in you're going to see even less hunters. I had a bad hit this year, but I also threw myself into this with a dedication I know most don't. Hour upon hour at the range practicing, time reading, time in the woods, never tried to buy my deer with silly tricks, but I did spend a lot of money on equipment that definitely helps (e.g. range finder). I think a good mentor could have saved me about half my trips, many of which were spent walking around crunchy woods and spooking deer like a fool.

 

I was surprised to read in some large study of recovered bow deer that the percentage of deer recovered from bow is close to that of gun. I don't know if it's true, but it makes sense in a way. I think about the deer I had within bow range this year. I believe with a shotgun all would have been immediately taken without any issue. However, I have a neighbor who had to chase a deer onto somebody's yard last year after a bad shot with his shotgun and finish it with a knife. I have a co-worker who goes out once/year with a shotgun and last year he missed a deer. He is barely a hunter. He puts no time in at all out of season, sights in the night before, then sits on a buddy's land over a food plot one day and that's all he does.

 

There's no doubt for a lot of people a crossbow is a better killing tool than a bow, like a gun is better than the crossbow,  but I think the reality is that people will realize it is better and just take further and further shots. Imagine if all shotgun hunters waited until the deer were within bow range? Recovery rates would be incredible. But they don't; or imagine if all rifle hunters waited until the deer are within shotgun range, but they bought the rifle to extend what they can do and expand their radius.

 

The first crossbow I saw at my range was this past week. A guy was sighting in to go hunting. In the past he was a bow hunter--and still kind of is. He has his bow at 50 lbs (I said he should lower it) and after practicing even 20 arrows his shoulder is toast. So a guy like that, who can't even practice with the bow but hasn't quite given it up (but probably should) is not putting in enough time to be a good shot, so his odds of wounding deer are very high IMO. But with the crossbow he can hit as hard as an 8 year old could. But as Doc mentions if the goal is more effective weapons, even crossbows should be banned and limit everyone to rifles.

 

I do understand that compound bows are only getting faster very slowly over time now, because the human body is the limit on them once they get near 100% efficiency. My guess without studying is that crossbows will keep getting more powerful. With a winched bow I think in theory the KE from one could be in the hundreds of lbs, because you could sit there spinning the winch for a minute or two as these ridiculous limbs are getting cranked down under insane pressure.

Core,

 

The fact that you are on this site asking questions and telling everyone your experiences and learning from them, shows you are the exception, not the norm. 

[growalot]

 

While a large number take it very serious and learn as much as they can, a lot also just go thru the motion of sitting in the classes and buy the equipment needed and just go out into the woods. I think one possible solution to this would be mandatory mentorship to all new hunters. Say they need to hunt under a seasoned hunter for two years before being allowed to hunt alone, no matter what age they are.

 

Ha..... then I would never have been a bow hunter...gun no problem...hunted with the guys and then the guys at camp...but bow was another story...NO one hunted bow and let me tell you....I took 10X's more flack from male bow hunters than I ever did gunhunters being a woman...and I know several other woman that did as well...Thankfully my archery guy that set me up (Hoyte dealer) was a good guy and his wife shot....Now I am far away and removed from being a womans liber...but the discrimination from male bow hunters back when I started was not nice! Which made me even more determined to become a good archery hunter... then it went from nasty to wow some of them got darn right mad when I was getting nice buck and doe...That may have changed now....... but I am still the only bow hunter ,other than my kids I taugh,  in this family...mentors would be hard to come by.... I think...could be wrong...don't think so.

[DirtTime]

 

While a large number take it very serious and learn as much as they can, a lot also just go thru the motion of sitting in the classes and buy the equipment needed and just go out into the woods. I think one possible solution to this would be mandatory mentorship to all new hunters. Say they need to hunt under a seasoned hunter for two years before being allowed to hunt alone, no matter what age they are.

 

That's insane. This makes as much sense as cutting of your finger to get better accuracy.

 

Do we really need to get into the major flaws of a statement like that?

 

 

[zeus1gdsm]

As a new hunter and a first season bow hunter.... The guidance of a seasoned hunter would be amazing... However I have Noone to provide it.. So as mentioned I have spent many hours reading. Watching videos. And alot of time reading hunt reports and discussions here.

I have put alot of time into practicing with my compound. And though I am comfortable in the backyard to 30 yards. Even after having my rig professional tuned and papered I would only dare to reach out to 20 in a prime shot. Certainly not over 20. I am sure over time my confidence,experience and accuracy will grow.. But for this season it better be close for me to take a shot.

It is the same with my Rifle. I can consistently reach 2-3inches groups or better at 100yards. But I doubt I would dare shoot past 50 in the field. Muzzle loader max is about 30-40.

With regards to cross bows and the debate in hand.....

I feel that they should be covered in the bow class.. And the class be required for the privilege. Simply because the wounding method is in the same vein. And its functions more closely correlates with bow.

However I don't think the season should be expanded further than it currently sits. With the exception of disability permissions. I enjoy this bow season simply because it's quiet. I haven't seen a single animal other than birds. Probably due to my poor site selection. But knowing there is less people in the woods. And not hearing the regular Crack of rifles gives a certain serenity that I don't feel during Rifle season.

In its current state of legality. No required course and ease of use makes it easier for yahoo's to get in early and ruin what is the best part of hunting.. And then on top of that no prior education requirements will promote more ignorance on the use and practice of the Xbow and bow hunting itself.

That said I will eventually get a Xbow and use it as another tool in my arsenal during the appropriate times. Choosing it purely according to location and desired hunt experience.

I do not think it should be folded fully into bow season... I enjoy the separate seasons for the variety. And they have their own unique aspects and challenges.

***edit****to clarify... I Dont mean to imply that anyone who picks up a cross bow is negligent or a yahoo.... But I personally know 2 yahoo's. I won't hunt with for safety sake. Who are talking about getting Xbow.s

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Edited November 10, 2015 by zeus1gdsm

[Doc]

yes it was created for primitive pursuit... and that is exactly what a cross bow is.. cap and ball gun as well. my head shaker is the assumption that the compound is primitive. seeing some of these new bows, lighted pins, digital sights there is more technology in these bows then I have in my old ford pick-up. if the season was long/recurve I might look at it differently... but then again the 100 voices that use them would make no sound against the masses. so I stick with... if it allows more people to get in the field, it's good for the sport.

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First of all, I have never called a compound bow primitive equipment. Although 95% of the shooting principles and disciplines of a compound are exactly the same as those of longbows and recurves, no one can look at that contraption and call it primitive. I can't recall back when bowseason was established anyone using the word "primitive" either. Believe me with the laminated fancy recurves and the beautiful lines and the modern engineered designs of the day, we didn't look at them as being primitive. They were state of the art archery equipment. But we did understand that shooting any bow with all the form disciplines and drawing procedures, restrictions and other crazy rigid and unyielding requirements, shooting a bow of any kind did pose a unique challenge for harvesting deer and that was the appeal and the reason that the season was originated.

 

Frankly, I don't think that it would make any difference to the attitudes of any of the crossbow proponents whether or not "the season was longbow/recurve only". Actually the desire to force themselves into bow season has very little to do with the weapon itself other than the fact that it is pretty rifle-like and easy to shoot without all those nasty shooting form requirements. I don't believe there are a whole lot of people who are madly in love with crossbows. The whole deal is that people are looking at the season itself with the warmer weather, and the less frantic hunting atmosphere and the positioning of the rut and saying to themselves, "You know if I could get into that season with something that isn't so damn hard to shoot, I'd love to bust into that season". Come on, let's be honest. That's really what all the fuss is about.

 

As far as the comments about crossbows allowing more people to be afield, lets be honest, it really boils down to a simple re-distribution of gun hunters into bow season. A way has now been found to allow gun hunters to break into bow seasons without a lot of demanding pain, and don't be expecting that trend to end with crossbows.

[SteveB]

The only reason one chooses a compound over a recurve to hunt with is because it is easier to become and maintain hunting proficiency. Which is fine until they seek to have their choice of easier archery equipment be the only one allowed.

[Jmny]

Oh, how funny. I use to enjoy reading your posting, even if I disagreed with your train of thought. They were well written and a pleasure to read. But you have taken a big liberty with this one. In particular I refer to the last two paragraphs of your latest posting

As far as the attitudes of proponents of crossbows I will not attempt to speak for the group of individuals. Unlike others on this forum I can only speak for myself. But you first point couldn't be more truthful. It's not which type of bow you use, but our inclusion. It would extend my hunting season. Then you actually attempt to equate a long bow,recurve and compound as requiring " those nasty shooting form requirements"

Has the history of the bow been revised? The longhorns were extremely difficult to draw and hold at full draw. Can't remember the use of shooting triggers to insure a consistent release. For that matter, or sights every ten yards to assist in aiming point. Or carbon arrows, advanced broadheads ( sharper and reduced weight) . They also didn't stabilizers to assist with the keeping the bow still for the shot and follow up after discharging the weapon. And what was speed of the arrow flight? And now for all you guys who equate using a compound with it somehow be more manly, can't remember a long bow having any let off. LET ALONE THE 80% that is now available. How you can equate the three forms of bow as requiring those same nasty shooting form requirements.

"Actually the desire to force themselves", you apparently have never been forced. I believe it is our desire to be included not denied the privilege for 38 days to appease the children that want the woods to themselves. Sort of like the kid who owned the basketball the other nine guys were using. I'm sure you remember the childish behavior that if something didn't go his way he would take his ball and go home. " Pretty rifle like" really? I'm not going to refer to rifle statistics basically because I don't know them or have the desire to look them up. Nor do I have any desire to mislead any members with false information.

But I do shoot what is one of the fastest bows on the market the has an 185 draw weight fires a 400 grain arrow at 410 fps with a 149 pounds of kinetic energy. Now I'm aware that these days there are numerous compound bows,available that have 80 % let off and arrow speeds of 350-366 fps.

Now my 12 gauge shotgun shooting a 300 grain hornady sst slug has the following

Muzzle 2000 fps and 2664 foot pounds of energy

50 yds 1816 fps and 2196 foot pounds of energy

100yds.1641 fps and 1793 foot pounds of energy

Muzzleloader:

50 cal 250 grains sst-ml Muzzle - 2250 fps/ 2735 kinetic energy

50 yrd- 2031fps/ 2290 kinetic energy

100 yrd- 1852fps/ 1904 kinetic energy

Rifle;

30 06 150 grain sp; Muzzle: 2910 fps, 2820 foot pounds of energy

100 yd: 2637 fps, 2317 foot pounds of energy

Crossbow ( second fastest on market) as far as I know.

Right after the arrow clears the bow

410fps-149 foot pounds of kinetic energy

So, where is the similarity between the Crossbow and either the shotgun or rifle??????? Your ability to express yourself in writing doesn't equate with your ability to comprehend. There is no way that you can justify placing the crossbow in in any season but the bow. Then the muzzleloader, pistol,shotgun and rifle would be in the gun season. Probably explains why the name of the weapon ends with the word bow

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Oh, how funny. I use to enjoy reading your posting, even if I disagreed with your train of thought. They were well written and a pleasure to read. But you have taken a big liberty with this one. In particular I refer to the last two paragraphs of your latest posting

As far as the attitudes of proponents of crossbows I will not attempt to speak for the group of individuals. Unlike others on this forum I can only speak for myself. But you first point couldn't be more truthful. It's not which type of bow you use, but our inclusion. It would extend my hunting season. Then you actually attempt to equate a long bow,recurve and compound as requiring " those nasty shooting form requirements"

Has the history of the bow been revised? The longhorns were extremely difficult to draw and hold at full draw. Can't remember the use of shooting triggers to insure a consistent release. For that matter, or sights every ten yards to assist in aiming point. Or carbon arrows, advanced broadheads ( sharper and reduced weight) . They also didn't stabilizers to assist with the keeping the bow still for the shot and follow up after discharging the weapon. And what was speed of the arrow flight? And now for all you guys who equate using a compound with it somehow be more manly, can't remember a long bow having any let off. LET ALONE THE 80% that is now available. How you can equate the three forms of bow as requiring those same nasty shooting form requirements.

"Actually the desire to force themselves", you apparently have never been forced. I believe it is our desire to be included not denied the privilege for 38 days to appease the children that want the woods to themselves. Sort of like the kid who owned the basketball the other nine guys were using. I'm sure you remember the childish behavior that if something didn't go his way he would take his ball and go home. " Pretty rifle like" really? I'm not going to refer to rifle statistics basically because I don't know them or have the desire to look them up. Nor do I have any desire to mislead any members with false information.

But I do shoot what is one of the fastest bows on the market the has an 185 draw weight fires a 400 grain arrow at 410 fps with a 149 pounds of kinetic energy. Now I'm aware that these days there are numerous compound bows,available that have 80 % let off and arrow speeds of 350-366 fps.

Now my 12 gauge shotgun shooting a 300 grain hornady sst slug has the following

Muzzle 2000 fps and 2664 foot pounds of energy

50 yds 1816 fps and 2196 foot pounds of energy

100yds.1641 fps and 1793 foot pounds of energy

Muzzleloader:

50 cal 250 grains sst-ml Muzzle - 2250 fps/ 2735 kinetic energy

50 yrd- 2031fps/ 2290 kinetic energy

100 yrd- 1852fps/ 1904 kinetic energy

Rifle;

30 06 150 grain sp; Muzzle: 2910 fps, 2820 foot pounds of energy

100 yd: 2637 fps, 2317 foot pounds of energy

Crossbow ( second fastest on market) as far as I know.

Right after the arrow clears the bow

410fps-149 foot pounds of kinetic energy

So, where is the similarity between the Crossbow and either the shotgun or rifle??????? Your ability to express yourself in writing doesn't equate with your ability to comprehend. There is no way that you can justify placing the crossbow in in any season but the bow. Then the muzzleloader, pistol,shotgun and rifle would be in the gun season. Probably explains why the name of the weapon ends with the word bow

It does make the conversation easier to follow if you use the quote or at least the members name in responding so the readers know who it is directed towards.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I didn't say anyone using a crossbow was lazy. He said people should use it because they are lazy. don't put words in my mouth.

 

and to your second point... why have archery at all if there's "a chance" of wounding a deer. Why not just all rifle, all the time?

 

I apologize, I read it as you were saying it. Thanks to Doc for pointing that out. Given your history on crossbows, it made sense though.

 

Theres a chance of wounding with a rifle too. I fail to see that logic, and in no way would I agree with doing away with archery and allowing guns into the season. My point had more to do with allowing archery equipment thats easier for those that dont have the time for vertical bows, not just allowing the easiest hunting tool you can come up with.

[Five Seasons]

The only reason one chooses a compound over a recurve to hunt with is because it is easier to become and maintain hunting proficiency. Which is fine until they seek to have their choice of easier archery equipment be the only one allowed.

 

I think everyone has a different level of challenge. And at some point you need to draw the line. I believe for decades now, the majority have agreed that a verticle bow was enough of a challenge. Weapons aren't the only limitation.

You can challenge yourself by hunting public land, you can not play the wind, you can not do any scouting, you can stalk, you can stink and make noise. At some point, you have to decide what's "challenge enough". And it's different for everyone.

[Five Seasons]

I am very thankful to have a family of bow hunters to guide me in the sport growing up. They accelerated my knowledge, but still most of what I've learned has come from time in the field.

 

There are many things in life I'm passionate about or good at that I didn't have a mentor for. Working on cars, riding a motorcycle and golf to name a few. And like you first time bowhunters in this thread I learned by reading and practice. Would have been nice to have mentors in those fields, but simply not having one around wasn't going to stop me either.

[Jmny]

I try not to personalize my remarks, but I can't believe anyone would be left in the dark with whom my comments were directed too. Ninety five percent of my comment is directed to compound fanatics that are opposed to having crossbow bow hunters in the woods. And the root of that resentment is based in selfishness. They want an extended parcel of public land to themselves. One would think that these individuals with their adamant want of isolation as far as deer hunting is concerned, would have bought their own private land. And it is extremely quizzical to me why they haven't? Unless their station in life doesn't afford them the opportunity to make purchases that bring them so much joy. That was the situation my dad was in, back in the mid seventies. But he did the leg work,found a farmer willing to sell him some acres on a land contract with further acreage held for further purchase pending completion of the existing contract. So,if sharing the woods with others is a major concern of any of you, solve your problem by getting up and following your desire to have your own piece of hunting property.

Instead a majority of these compound enthusiast decided it would be cheaper to have less hunters in the areas by denying other hunters the opportunity to hunt. Very friendly of you all. By the way, who is doing the forcing??

By the way, most cross bows shoot between 300-350 fps. And there are compounds with 80% let off and 350-366 fps.

Another fallacy that I see quoted is that if crossbows were allowed during the whole archery season the woods be infiltrated with ex gun hunters shooting wildly into the woods wounding deer. How convenient to use fear, as others have done over the years, to intimidate their fellow archers. Believe other groups, cults,racial groups (KKK,BLACK PANTERS,HITLER) etc Have,also used fear successfully.. It would be so refreshing if the compound enthusiast would realize that a high percentage of the would be crossbow deer hunters have the same ethical traditions that the majority of all hunters possess. Quite a number of these crossbow hunters, hold archery stamps( or at least have taken and successfully passed archery certification ) myself I used,a compound when the Martin bows were in the upper echelon of speed, and 50,% let off was standard. But a combination of age and unfortunate circumstances halted my archery hunting for four years. But the use of crossbows in Ohio gave me the opportunity to bow hunt again. Fortunately for me, I had relatives,and friends that decided to join me, even though it entailed additional expenses( non resident license, lodging and other travel expenses) and a 5 hour car trip. You see, I couldn't have done this alone, My unfortunate circumstance was a motor vehicle accident in which I sustained a traumatic brain injury. After 18 days in a coma, ten weeks of hospitalization and 3 months of outpatient rehab. I decide to take advantage of the ohio archery season and the use of a cross bow. So I bought a crossbow, Polaris ranger,Reinhardt rhinobrute target. But I still was,unable to go alone. I recovered most of my facilities with the exception of walking independently( without a rollator). So you see, if you actually think lowly of anyone that chooses a crossbow to hunt, you will have absolutely no respect for me as a hunter. Of The last five deer I have killed, not one did I track, more astoundingly I never field dressed any of those deer. Always had a friend or relative willing to do both services for me. Thank heavens I took the time and effort to teach them how to both services years ago. I hesitated to include this in my posting, not because it embarrasses me but I hate that it reinforces in small minds that crossbow choice is ok for those elderly or handicapped.

I believe the crossbow is an acceptable means of harvesting deer as evident by the statistics I have delineated earlier.

And to those that are still unable to comprehend my desire for full inclusion into the whole archery season, I wish you the financial means that allows you to afford your deer hunting dreams( ownership of private land.

[Doc]

.....So, where is the similarity between the Crossbow and either the shotgun or rifle???????

Not that all this hasn't been discussed to death, you seem to avoid the point that the whole principle of shooting disciplines are essentially the same between all vertical bows. The ideas of back tension, follow through, arm positioning, grip, and all the other form and execution shooting principles that books have been written about are uniform across all the vertically held bows and absolutely irrelevant to crossbow shooting. Yes, the shooting principles of crossbows are firearms related. Even the methods of resting, sighting, various stances, and steadying the crossbow are directly related to rifle shooting. All of these things have been discussed ad infinitum.

 

But I am not going to begin the re-hash of the years of argument all over again. There is no point. I am willing to explain my point of view and opinions, and will occasionally rise to the untrue charges of selfishness and elitism, but there is no point re-explaining things to people who really have no interest in listening.

[Five Seasons]

you might get better responses and less people left in the dark if you didn't write a novel everytime. I've never made it past paragraph 1 of your posts. clear concise thoughts are your friend.

[nyantler]

you might get better responses and less people left in the dark if you didn't write a novel everytime. I've never made it past paragraph 1 of your posts. clear concise thoughts are your friend.

 

You make up for it with number of posts per thread... LOL