Rescinding antlerless in early bow in 8n

[dbHunterNY]

45 minutes ago, G-Man said:

10 % of hunters take 90% of the game.. and the average bow today is pretty easy to use
. My 12 year old.nephew is splitting noks at 20 yards after 2 day practice . Sights release kisser button.. and getting close to game is the key the average hunter tells.me head a 100 yard shot and it's much closer to 50.. and an average hunter usually doe not take up bow hunting under the premise it's too hard.. so your dealing with better than average hunters to begin with..

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

I and others who know me, consider me to be an effective hunter when it comes to doe harvest.  give me a bow and i'll have some close to sealing the deal type of opportunities.  i'll likely capitalize on some of them.  give me a gun though and goes from likely to I can practically guarantee it.  I'm effective with a bow but if they're allowed I'd be more effective with a gun (muzzleloader or rifle).  if a gun isn't allowed, I need quite a bit more time to even come close.

[Doc]

So with that point settled, back to the original point that I was making regarding the decision by the DEC to assign the task of thinning the herd to a season that has the least chance of success. Or even more peculiar is the choice to leave the fix completely out of the more efficient season. What really was the motive behind all of that. There is something going on there besides tackling a population problem. I think the threat to insert muzzleloaders into bow season (something they have wanted to do fir a decade) may be a clue as to what it really is all about.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

So with that point settled, back to the original point that I was making regarding the decision by the DEC to assign the task of thinning the herd to a season that has the least chance of success. Or even more peculiar is the choice to leave the fix completely out of the more efficient season. What really was the motive behind all of that. There is something going on there besides tackling a population problem. I think the threat to insert muzzleloaders into bow season (something they have wanted to do fir a decade) may be a clue as to what it really is all about.

Personally i think it was more of a slap on the back of the hand becasue of the % of doe take compared to the overall bow kill. It well way short of what takes place in the other seasons. I just think they underestimated the level of the angry response. 

[Doc]

12 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Personally i think it was more of a slap on the back of the hand becasue of the % of doe take compared to the overall bow kill. It well way short of what takes place in the other seasons. I just think they underestimated the level of the angry response. 

One thing no one has offered up is any documentation or public statements from the DEC or any other credible source that shows that bowhunters are anymore prone to passing does than gun hunters are. As far as I know, they have not ever justified their decision to make bowhunters shoulder the population control experiments.

My suspicion is that the DEC wants bowhunters replaced by or supplemented by the more efficient firearms hunters in that segment of the season in order to increase the general deer take.

[growalot]

A Slap..huh...remember when I put the notice up to giveaway doe during bow season? What happened?  I couldn't get a doe in range to save my life...I finally used my buck tag on a 6pt for an elderly gentleman that was in desperate.

How many times have I mentioned over the years on here,that buck are easier to kill here than doe....shown pics of doe  on trail cams walking around looking up into the trees?  A  old Roman nose doe is a trophy...for she is the one to nail you 30 yards out because you blinked....perhaps the real problem is...The people running the show don't hunt.

[nyslowhand]

The thing that absolutely amazes  me is, that aside from the fact the DEC doesn't have a good handle on the real deer population numbers, they do NOT understand the hunter's mentality. The data from last year shows bow hunters will avoid the temptation of seeing a BB and not being able to harvest it by simply not putting themselves in that situation. Most of us are BB addicts, so avoidance of the temptation is necessary with any doe-only regulations, regardless of weapon carried. Why the DEC thinks ML hunters will react any differently than bow hunters baffles me!

 

IMHO, the only logical regulatory solution is the dreaded EAB. Which opens the DECAL's system to a lot of fraud, unreported buck &/or false doe harvest reports. I still think education is the long term solution, where hunters micro manage the deer herd for their respective hunting locations.

 

Not to hijack this topic, but there's also the Xbow issue...... With what is looming in the near future (ML in Sept/Oct), you'd think the super avid bow hunters would concede and accept Xbows into bow season. Baby steps...

[WNYBuckHunter]

55 minutes ago, nyslowhand said:

Not to hijack this topic, but there's also the Xbow issue...... With what is looming in the near future (ML in Sept/Oct), you'd think the super avid bow hunters would concede and accept Xbows into bow season. Baby steps...

I agree 110%. Maybe that is the goal, and not muzzle loaders after all.

[G-Man]

The crossbow will get full inclusion before you see an early muzzleloader season.. that's why Dec has been pushing them, they want more take in archery. they feel the hunters will hunt do to better weather,not as dangerous as gun season and you can hunt in more populated areas with 150 ft set back vs 500 ft.

If the bow hunters would of taken doe the crossbow would never have been an issue. And yes many could of taken doe and pass them, some years maybe you don't see doe but overall most bowhunters are looking for a buck. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

The crossbow has been an issue for a while now. Its nothing new caused by bow hunters not going with the doe only season last year. Full inclusion should have happened from the get go anyhow.

[Buckmaster7600]

I'm still keeping hope for a late September or late December/early Jan muzzleloader. I don't want full inclusion. I love the way bow season is split up with the last 2 weeks being Xbow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

The thing that absolutely amazes  me is, that aside from the fact the DEC doesn't have a good handle on the real deer population numbers, they do NOT understand the hunter's mentality. The data from last year shows bow hunters will avoid the temptation of seeing a BB and not being able to harvest it by simply not putting themselves in that situation. Most of us are BB addicts, so avoidance of the temptation is necessary with any doe-only regulations, regardless of weapon carried. Why the DEC thinks ML hunters will react any differently than bow hunters baffles me!

 

IMHO, the only logical regulatory solution is the dreaded EAB. Which opens the DECAL's system to a lot of fraud, unreported buck &/or false doe harvest reports. I still think education is the long term solution, where hunters micro manage the deer herd for their respective hunting locations.

 

I think they could sell it if it didn't happen during a current season and it will be viewed as expanding the hunting opportunities. I chose to hunt in other areas during that time including the  ML season up north last year. We typically head up there to take does on the antlerless only tag but have the opportunity to take a good buck if one comes by. If there were a gun or ML in September that was antlerless only I know a lot of guys that would love to take part in it. 

[dbHunterNY]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

A Slap..huh...remember when I put the notice up to giveaway doe during bow season? What happened?  I couldn't get a doe in range to save my life...I finally used my buck tag on a 6pt for an elderly gentleman that was in desperate.

How many times have I mentioned over the years on here,that buck are easier to kill here than doe....shown pics of doe  on trail cams walking around looking up into the trees?  A  old Roman nose doe is a trophy...for she is the one to nail you 30 yards out because you blinked....perhaps the real problem is...The people running the show don't hunt.

multiple deer related folks in dec do hunt.  the big game unit leader Hurst included.  not all doe are roman nosed old doe.  an adult 1.5 year old doe counts just the same for harvest.  we had a doe taken on a neighboring property that's on the co-op.  CA results came in that she was 13.5 yrs old.  If I told you she had nailed down all the permanent stand locations I'd be a liar.

[dbHunterNY]

DEC doesn't seem to be fond of EAB.  exact reasons I haven't asked but I'm sure they're the typical ones.  I big reason including angry hunters.  expanded September seasons seem like the way their leaning for now.  ML or bow depending on the WMU in question.

crossbow is difficult and would probably get full inclusion if they could get it passed through legislation to be regulated under DEC as archery equipment.

[growalot]

Quote

.perhaps the real problem is...The people running the show don't hunt.

Quote

  How many times have I mentioned over the years on here,that buck are easier to kill here than doe.

Maybe my wording wasn't specific enough....

[dbHunterNY]

36 minutes ago, growalot said:

Maybe my wording wasn't specific enough....

 ....not meant for corrective purposes so much as just sayin' what I know.

[growalot]

So the front page of the NYODN:                         Fewer DMPS this year

                                                                 Concerns remain over the winters of 2013-14,14-15.

So what do you think the DEC 's take on how hunters will respond to this article. Granted it goes on to speak of the the Finger lakes/lake plains region where " hunters interest didn't meet the target allocation"

Here's my take They will read or hear of this and in the end will not get past:

Quote

Concerns remain over the winters of 2013-14,14-15.

or

Quote

the total allocation of 551,050- NOT INCLUDING WMU's where there are No DMP targets and in essence unlimited tags.

Oh boy...hahaha I'm sorry it is beyond comical to me  Think about this thread  BTW from Oct 1 to Nov1 in 8N(quotas not met and unlimited tags) I have just one doe tag to fill.

Now you have guys that remember a Boo Boo the DEC made and zapped the doe population but good...and there are still areas trying to recover from that. This happened JUST as they were finally getting the no doe guys to start shooting doe...NY hunters have long memories and little patients for Oooppppssss. So 10 or so years later  hunters are coming back around and....the DEC kicks them in the pants with the doe only doe fiasco. So we are back to yet ...another Oopppss...Now they are announcing this one year later and....What was the prevailing sentiment in this hunting site and across much of the state...We did not get and barely saw any deer last season...It's like watching  a keystone cops flick. It was so bad I personally avoid deer chat with guys because I didn't want to tell them how I did...I hunt more than most....NY hunters will have the past and this headline in their minds when deciding how many times to pull that trigger on a doe. The DEC has got to learn how to communicate properly to NYS hunters...There is a mind set..Which is plainly put .....Distrust...   

Edited August 17, 2016 by growalot

[wolc123]

I agree with Grow that doe are much harder to kill with a vertical bow than bucks.   The main reason for that seems to be that the doe are almost always in groups thru archery season, and more than one set of eyes must be fooled in close while making the draw.    That quick motion is exactly the type of thing those deer are wired to detect with their excellent periforal vision.  Usually it sends the group high-tailing it into cover immediately or at the very least puts them in a state of high alert, which greatly increases "string-jump".

I see the crossbow as the ultimate doe-killing weapon for three reasons, with the most important being the elimination of the need to draw with groups of deer in close.   The second reason is it's silence, equal or nearly equal to that of a vertical bow.   This gives it a big advantage over the ML, who's blast would alert other deer at great distance.  Finally, I think most would agree that far less time and effort is required to attain lethal accuracy with a crossbow, especially if fired from a rest using telescopic sights, than a vertical bow.  That means there will be more efffective hunters in the woods.

 

The key is to let those hunters in the woods when they can do the most good at lowering the antlerless population.  That would be the start of archery season, before the bulk of the population has gone nocturnal after detecting the early archery pressure.   I would even settle for a compromise with the anti-crossbow bowhunters whereby the crossbow could only be used on antlerless deer for the first two weeks in the overpopulated zones only (those that had 2 week antlerless only last season), and ether sex for the rest of the season.   They don't seem willing to give an inch however.  I guess they would rather keep the automobile as the best control of antlerless deer in these overpopulated zones.   

 

[dbHunterNY]

15 hours ago, wolc123 said:

I agree with Grow that doe are much harder to kill with a vertical bow than bucks.   The main reason for that seems to be that the doe are almost always in groups thru archery season, and more than one set of eyes must be fooled in close while making the draw.    That quick motion is exactly the type of thing those deer are wired to detect with their excellent periforal vision.  Usually it sends the group high-tailing it into cover immediately or at the very least puts them in a state of high alert, which greatly increases "string-jump".

I see the crossbow as the ultimate doe-killing weapon for three reasons, with the most important being the elimination of the need to draw with groups of deer in close.   The second reason is it's silence, equal or nearly equal to that of a vertical bow.   This gives it a big advantage over the ML, who's blast would alert other deer at great distance.  Finally, I think most would agree that far less time and effort is required to attain lethal accuracy with a crossbow, especially if fired from a rest using telescopic sights, than a vertical bow.  That means there will be more efffective hunters in the woods.

 

The key is to let those hunters in the woods when they can do the most good at lowering the antlerless population.  That would be the start of archery season, before the bulk of the population has gone nocturnal after detecting the early archery pressure.   I would even settle for a compromise with the anti-crossbow bowhunters whereby the crossbow could only be used on antlerless deer for the first two weeks in the overpopulated zones only (those that had 2 week antlerless only last season), and ether sex for the rest of the season.   They don't seem willing to give an inch however.  I guess they would rather keep the automobile as the best control of antlerless deer in these overpopulated zones.   

 

try not to take this as a glib reply but I see the use of crossbows as an irrelevant fart down wind until DEC can regulate them like normal archery equipment.  I hope the soap box you use here all the time is seen by legislators.  it'd be a shame otherwise.

[growalot]

And we can call that yet another  "Oopppsss"....... because they let the Genie out of the bottle on that one and getting it back in will be nearly impossible. Having already allowed them into a gun season for general use by hunters without a bow hunter certificate...What kind of reaction do you actually think would occur if they told all these non certificate x-bow owners, whom have been hunting with them a few years, they have to take a class now?

That has been a big issue with archery hunters from the get go...

[WNYBuckHunter]

16 minutes ago, growalot said:

And we can call that yet another  "Oopppsss"....... because they let the Genie out of the bottle on that one and getting it back in will be nearly impossible. Having already allowed them into a gun season for general use by hunters without a bow hunter certificate...What kind of reaction do you actually think would occur if they told all these non certificate x-bow owners, whom have been hunting with them a few years, they have to take a class now?

That has been a big issue with archery hunters from the get go...

They could make it an online class for people that already have their license, and then make the archery course mandatory for those that are new to the sport. It wouldn't be that painful that way.

[growalot]

Correct...but then you'd have to wonder just how good a on line class they'd have or if they would tell them they have to take the regular on line one... you may see a bigger bulk to it than you think...but granted possible......BTW their license is actually ML with that dumb on line certificate...How do you prove they have been past hunters with cross bow and not just someone that quick popped on line for the certificate?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Past big game hunters would be able to take the online class.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

And we can call that yet another  "Oopppsss"....... because they let the Genie out of the bottle on that one and getting it back in will be nearly impossible. Having already allowed them into a gun season for general use by hunters without a bow hunter certificate...What kind of reaction do you actually think would occur if they told all these non certificate x-bow owners, whom have been hunting with them a few years, they have to take a class now?

That has been a big issue with archery hunters from the get go...

grandfather , I believe the bow class was the same way. Could be wrong, a bit before my time.