Antler restrictions

[Four Season Whitetail's]

52 minutes ago, Deerstalker said:

Dont know where you hunt but I know people that go  up on  public land every year opening  weekend in groups 4 more guys every years and most the time they come back with nothing  or only one guy gets one . 

What it takes is to hunt lots of days on public land . And even more so  if you want a bigger buck . 

Well surly all public land is not the same but just as not every hunter is the same. Some hunters could be put on deer rich property and still not kill a deer.

[Deerstalker]

9 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Well surly all public land is not the same but just as not every hunter is the same. Some hunters could be put on deer rich property and still not kill a deer.

 how many hunters go to a hunting preserve and dont get a deer ?

A Deer is a large target  for someone using a scoped rifle .

But it all depends on how you hunt.

If your a tracker stalker type hunter or using a ground blind or stand . You cant  say one hunter is better then the other cuz everybody's hunting different ways for different reasons  on different Terrain in different areas of the state and deer populations are vastly different depending where your at .

 

[Buckmaster7600]

 how many hunters go to a hunting preserve and dont get a deer ?
A Deer is a large target  for someone using a scoped rifle .
But it all depends on how you hunt.
If your a tracker stalker type hunter or using a ground blind or stand . You cant  say one hunter is better then the other cuz everybody's hunting different ways for different reasons  on different Terrain in different areas of the state and deer populations are vastly different depending where your at .
 

I don't agree, some have it some don't. A hunter that consistently shoots mature deer can do it many ways in many places. A stalker knows where to stalk and would know where to put a stand or a blind and a stand hunter would know where to stalk.

A scoped rifle doesn't make someone a better shot it makes someone see what they are shooting better. A few years ago when the Marine Corps went to scopes on their rifles the rifle scores stayed the exact same.

There are good hunters and there are bad.




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[Four Season Whitetail's]

30 minutes ago, Deerstalker said:

 how many hunters go to a hunting preserve and dont get a deer ?

A Deer is a large target  for someone using a scoped rifle .

But it all depends on how you hunt.

If your a tracker stalker type hunter or using a ground blind or stand . You cant  say one hunter is better then the other cuz everybody's hunting different ways for different reasons  on different Terrain in different areas of the state and deer populations are vastly different depending where your at .

 

What does a hunting preserve have to do with anything?  I see many, many hunters hunt deer rich state land and come out and make a statement that there are no deer. Then another goes sits and see's 5-10 every sit. Ya still have to have a clue on what your doing and most important what the deer are doing every part of the season. I would guess that most state land has a population of deer and hunters that know the game will find them most times.

[Deerstalker]

34 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

I don't agree, some have it some don't. A hunter that consistently shoots mature deer can do it many ways in many places. A stalker knows where to stalk and would know where to put a stand or a blind and a stand hunter would know where to stalk.

A scoped rifle doesn't make someone a better shot it makes someone see what they are shooting better. A few years ago when the Marine Corps went to scopes on their rifles the rifle scores stayed the exact same.

There are good hunters and there are bad.




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Yea but to know that you have to be hunting the same area  and in the same way . To be able to judge another Hunter.

Deer populations are different all over the  state. 

 

[Larry]

I SEE WE ARE STILL FLOGING THIS DEAD HORSE!!!!

[Buckmaster7600]

Yea but to know that you have to be hunting the same area  and in the same way . To be able to judge another Hunter.

Deer populations are different all over the  state. 

 

I'm not trying to argue but I don't agree with this either. Deer are deer they all need water food and cover. I have hunted deer in 7 states and have been successful in all of them and they all did the same thing to an extent.

Yes deer populations are different all over the state but I don't see your point?

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[Deerstalker]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

I'm not trying to argue but I don't agree with this either. Deer are deer they all need water food and cover. I have hunted deer in 7 states and have been successful in all of them and they all did the same thing to an extent.


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Well if your hunting all those states with a bunch of  your friends and your getting more deer , you can definitely say you're a better Hunter than they are .

But how can you judge other hunters  

That you dont hunt with ? Its some what subjective. 

I saw your adks bucks you definitely are a above-average hunter thats for sure to get anything there.

But  other parts of the state is different from one another  and not well know .

What i mean is adks is know for hard hunting .

But other parts of the state are not well know like the adks .

So it makes it harder to judge.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Deerstalker

[Buckmaster7600]

My point is there are some hunters who will consistently kill mature deer when others don't. It doesn't matter where you put them they would continue to kill them. It only takes 3 things for a hunter to consistently kill mature bucks-a mature buck,skill and time.


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[BigVal]

47 minutes ago, Larry said:

I SEE WE ARE STILL FLOGING THIS DEAD HORSE!!!!

I see your still posting obvious statements in strange fonts. Lol but your right 

[BowmanMike]

So here is a crazy idea. Why not connect AR to how long you have been hunting?

Most hunters go through a maturing process skill wise and for their goals. So let new hunters shoot small bucks to get them excited about the sport and then have the ARs kick in later.

I see myself going through that process. This is my fifth year hunting and I can say I have seen more deer this year than in all my seasons before. My skill is growing and so are my expectations. I shot a 4 point during bow season,but let a lot of other young bucks walk. This four had a nice tall rack and he will be tasty. Just passed on his bigger twin the other day with the gun. Building up credit for the encounter with a 2 1/2 year old or older deer.

Seems like one can get a doe pretty easy,so that works for meat for me.

I also saw a real bruiser last night on my drive home,he was right by some state land here on 4F.

[Doc]

Apparently everyone loves restricting harvests in all kinds of ways. Shorter seasons, AR, one buck rule, eliminate rifles, no hunting during rut, and on and on. Just love those regs and restrictions and can't get enough!

But then you have the DEC that swears there is an absolute need to whack on the herd and mow them all down. Heck, they have even taken to harassing bow hunters with threats of incorporating firearms into bow season if archers don't bring the populations down all by themselves in certain areas.

The point is that it appears that hunters and those that manage the herds (DEC) have entirely different objectives. Who is right? Hunters that want to place all kinds of restrictions on what you can take, shorter seasons, more disadvantaged season timing, smaller bag limits, or the DEC that wants to take all the deer out? It just seems that we are all working in opposite directions.

[nodeerhere]

idk in my area it seems as if the dec is trying to take the herd out. They give so many doe permits it ain't funny. I can get 4 if I want. And that's every hunter in the area that wants them. And trust me from hunting here for many years. there ain't that many deer. And as for antler restrictions I'm going to say it would be nice to see some more mature deer but idk if antler restrictions will help. Idk what the answer is. All I know is I sure hope the whitetail herd stays strong and preserves or right to hunt them for many years to come

[Larry]

I don’t care what side of the AR issue you are on. I’m going to make a suggestion: Spend more time hunting and less time worrying about what the other guy is doing or shooting. It’s none of your business As long as they are following the rules there’s nothing you can do about anyways. Maybe then you can shoot 9 P&Y bucks. Here’s another suggestion for you if you can’t do that then it’s time to quit hunting because you no enjoying yourself, find something else to do like maybe join the Democratic party or maybe PETA.

[Chef]

I have no problem with AR it does help grow bucks but in areas where there are AR's it shouldn't take 3 years to get a doe tag like it does where I hunt


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[Buckstopshere]

So many impassioned comments from both sides of the issue. But I think there is one false underlying biological principal that pro-antler restriction advocates should consider. And that is, our bucks and does are wild...and they have their genetic history which is different than farm raised or deer in-a-pen researched animals. Many of the studies which track and chronicle the progress of a yearling buck to mature use top quality genetic animals. Like breeding pure-bred anything. And whitetails have been selectively bred to produce big antlers. Look at the bucks in hunting preserves. So out comes the history in photos of the spike buck that is a 150 class in four years. Our wild whitetails are mutts. Sorry, but it is the truth. Once in a while they will produce a great antlered animal in a few years...like they do in the deer farmer's pen...but that is the rare exception. Chances are much greater that a four or  six point at 2.5 years in our wild areas...will be no better than a huge six-point, with coke-bottle bases at three years down the road. Some will never be more than big 7 pointers. They are great animals...that's not my point. We have a genetic mix that is not going to produce 14, 16 point bucks that approach 200 B&C and P&Y at any age. And the promise of antler restrictions to produce "bigger" and mature deer by protecting the yearling buck at all costs is overlooking the fact that our wild deer often will only produce big four or six pointers due to the wild genetics. An old bird dog breeder with many champions told me, "breeding always goes toward the mediocre."

Edited November 25, 2016 by Buckstopshere

[Zuke]

Buckstopshere, I agree with most of your post that wild deer will rarely reach that 200" mark, but, I also think it is just as rare to see a 4 1/2 year old 4 or 6 point without some extreme lack of food or other factor beyond genetics. With that being said, I'm not a fan of the term "antler restrictions". In my eyes it puts too much focus on the headgear and not enough on the actual management of the deer... does included. On the flip side, I'm also not a wildlife biologist and I have trouble forcing someone to follow rules they don't agree with on land they pay taxes on. I think I once heard it put "It's his ranch. Let him wipe his ass with cactus if he wants to."

[BuckThornBooners]

Well BST I would disagree I bet if you could show me one WNY 4 1/2 scrub  6pt  I could show you 20 4 1/2 that would go p&y if not B&C..  now I know every buck won't reach B&C  just because it's gets mature but I think all deer in wny have the potential to reach trophy status to 90% of hunters..  

it's funny a guy just showed me his "old"  dark racked gray faced broken up 6pt he had to take out of the herd...he was positive it was at least 10 years old.  it had the body of a doe and teeth as Sharp and clean as a toddler .. a classic wny 1.5y .  so many misinformed deer managers out there.  there is a small little organization that does a little reserch on this matter called qdma. 

I would say finding a 4 1/2yo 70" 6pt would be as rare as finding a 130" 1.5yo.. 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by BuckThornBooners

[Buckstopshere]

9 minutes ago, Zuke said:

Buckstopshere, I agree with most of your post that wild deer will rarely reach that 200" mark, but, I also think it is just as rare to see a 4 1/2 year old 4 or 6 point without some extreme lack of food or other factor beyond genetics. With that being said, I'm not a fan of the term "antler restrictions". In my eyes it puts too much focus on the headgear and not enough on the actual management of the deer... does included. On the flip side, I'm also not a wildlife biologist and I have trouble forcing someone to follow rules they don't agree with on land they pay taxes on. I think I once heard it put "It's his ranch. Let him wipe his ass with cactus if he wants to."

Buddy of mine shot a 8.5 year old buck in Connecticut this year during archery. Six point. Huge bases. Weighted 203 pounds, dressed. Most of us would love to shoot an animal like that. But the point is that most will never grow tines and be high scoring critters if the genes ain't there. Just big, ugly bucks. 

[Buckstopshere]

17 minutes ago, BuckThornBooners said:

Well BST I would disagree I bet if you could show me one WNY 4 1/2 scrub  6pt  I could show you 20 4 1/2 that would go p&y if not B&C..  now I know every buck won't reach B&C  just because it's gets mature but I think all deer in wny have the potential to reach trophy status to 90% of hunters..  

it's funny a guy just showed me his "old"  dark racked gray faced broken up 6pt he had to take out of the herd...he was positive it was at least 10 years old.  it had the body of a doe and teeth as Sharp and clean as a toddler .. a classic wny 1.5y .  so many misinformed deer managers out there.  there is a small little organization that does a little reserch on this matter called qdma. 

I would say finding a 4 1/2yo 70" 6pt would be as rare as finding a 130" 1.5yo.. 

 

How 'bout a sub-100 class 8.5 year old taken two weeks ago? What do you think he scores? Here's two views. (By the way, a great animal!)

[Four Season Whitetail's]

9 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

How 'bout a sub-100 class 8.5 year old taken two weeks ago? What do you think he scores? Here's two views. (By the way, a great animal!)

We have one of these also and he likes to run around with a 120 and 130in plus bucks. For every 1 of these bucks there is a half dozen that are book deer in the same herd and area. Givin time most of Wny bucks would grow to trophy proportion.

[Trial153]

The outliers of the bell curve are ridiculous examples to use in this argument.

[BuckThornBooners]

Like I said rare but not impossible.. he is legal under the AR 3 on one side rule so.  Looks like he made it to a matures age with a great rack and body. great trophy ! 

 

Here is a free range wny buck example 

http://www.lakeontariounited.com/fishing-hunting/topic/60756-legacy-2016-deer-season/?p=449541  

If some redneck deerologist shot this buck as a 1.5 4pt because a 4pt will always be a 4pt this magnificent deer would have never grown to show its true potential.

the reason why they use AR is to protect young bucks just like this one.

You don't age a deer by its rack but the use of AR would protect the majority of 1.5s allowing them a better chance to reach maturity. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by BuckThornBooners

[Zuke]

At 8.5 he is potentially on his way downhill and may very well have been at least an 8 in years prior.

[Buckstopshere]

30 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

We have one of these also and he likes to run around with a 120 and 130in plus bucks. For every 1 of these bucks there is a half dozen that are book deer in the same herd and area. Givin time most of Wny bucks would grow to trophy proportion.

That's the crux of the issue, isn't it? From my limited experience, I believe that there are a lot more of these sub-par bucks, as yearlings out there. And if they get old...which of course few do. They are like this six point.