SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[chas0218]

On 3/11/2017 at 2:38 AM, growalot said:

So what your really saying is education is actually working,social media is also impacting the let them grow mentality. Which would have to prove AR legislation,really isn't needed.

Isn't needed but it IS working? Now if so many others could realize it!

 

On 3/11/2017 at 9:22 AM, Buckmaster7600 said:

As I have said many times before I don't shoot small bucks. I have before and most likely won't ever again. I cherish the memories of the spike 3 and 4 that I killed before I started not shooting small bucks just as much as my biggest bucks.

How in the hell can I support something that takes the ability to do something that I enjoyed so much away from someone else for my personal gains?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is in response to your earlier post with pictures. There are "scrub" bucks in every region or area, it all depends on 2 things the forage and genetics. You need minerals and nutrients for the deer to grow bigger head gear and healthier. Some deer will peak early others later, once that deer hits a certain age (based on their genes) their head gear and overall health will start to diminish and eventually be beat out of breeding by the younger stronger bucks. If they aren't killed by a predator they will die of old age. Some areas just don't have the ability to have "big bucks" but in terms of antlers and points the antlers may not grow larger (overall amount in inches) in areas lacking nutrition but will still increase in number of points. As you proved that deer that was aged at 6 1/2 wasn't a spike by any means. Granted a 6 1/2 in an area with adequate forage would have likely been much larger overall.

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

I really dont care what you think you know but to come on a site and make statements that are 100% not a fact about something that clearly shows you know nothing about is really not needed.
We are talking Whitetails here and you are talking....The safety of the Herd?????????  Really!

Question.. have the studies conducted on CWD/EHD and the like, been conducted of on long term effects on deer numbers, behavior and the herd in WILD herds, or captive deer in a more often than not " managed" environment. What effects captive deer, even the large acreage deer farms isnt any parallel to how wild deer respond,

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[Four Season Whitetail's]

30 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

Question.. have the studies conducted on CWD/EHD and the like, been conducted of on long term effects on deer numbers, behavior and the herd in WILD herds, or captive deer in a more often than not " managed" environment. What effects captive deer, even the large acreage deer farms isnt any parallel to how wild deer respond,

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk
 

Well we sure don't see much EHD in the state of Ny and studies of CWD of over 50 years has yet to show 1 negitive effect on the health or loss of any wild herds in any state. CWD does not kill deer before man kills them to see if they have CWD!  

[G-Man]

Here is an observation on older bucks..

My neighbor to the north sees small bucks and he doesn't understand that we see bigger bucks than he does .he starts a 8 point rule.. Still no seeing bigger bucks than he was before.. We have no rule but use cams to show us what's available and we try for top 3 or 4bucks. We can take a 120 plus in buck every year he sees on that side about ever 4 years..

He hunts out of tripods in open brush fields. We hunt in thick nasty stuff that maybe you can see past 30 yards.. We have 1900ft of boarder with him and deer cross back and forth.. 

His take..we need restrictions!! There are no big bucks... Our take.. No restrictions necessary.. We do fine.

It's not about restrictions it's about learning to. Hunt an area properly waiting for what you want. Even small properties can hold mature bucks if the habitat is there that they require. Looking thru an open woods at 300 yards or across an open field will not yield the same results as hunting in areas larger buck will hold to.

[Death From Above]

45 minutes ago, G-Man said:

Here is an observation on older bucks..

My neighbor to the north sees small bucks and he doesn't understand that we see bigger bucks than he does .he starts a 8 point rule.. Still no seeing bigger bucks than he was before.. We have no rule but use cams to show us what's available and we try for top 3 or 4bucks. We can take a 120 plus in buck every year he sees on that side about ever 4 years..

He hunts out of tripods in open brush fields. We hunt in thick nasty stuff that maybe you can see past 30 yards.. We have 1900ft of boarder with him and deer cross back and forth.. 

His take..we need restrictions!! There are no big bucks... Our take.. No restrictions necessary.. We do fine.

It's not about restrictions it's about learning to. Hunt an area properly waiting for what you want. Even small properties can hold mature bucks if the habitat is there that they require. Looking thru an open woods at 300 yards or across an open field will not yield the same results as hunting in areas larger buck will hold to.

So if I put my cameras out like you do and I don't get pictures of the bucks that you speak of, does your theory about learning how to hunt still work?  Or do I just not know where to put my cameras?

 

[growalot]

I don't see where he said anything about cameras...though I know I've seen the pictures of the bucks he and others on his land have taken every year. I can show pictures of big buck and have...I don't take one every year ,but I also won't go to where I know they are every year on our place...I also can't go to where I see them every single year ,glassing the neighbors thick nasty swamp from my stands. All I can do is sit and watch them meander around in there hoping they'll decide to move my way during day light....

The Guys at camp could be getting nice buck yearly if they would go to where they are, but they are stand hunters and not climbing or portable stands...the bigger buck taken there last year, was by a friend during gun in his climber he brought. I have a neighbor that can sit in their kitchen and watch the big boys doing their thing on half their property with a spotting scope...They have only taken 4 big buck off that property in 20 years...because they won't go in and hunt them there  because they would push them to the guys behind them and I would think me as well..though that doesn't bother them as much. They also wont shoot them off the deck ..though with the trails I encouraged them to cut they could. They are also a "there are no deer" so have a no doe shooting policy in 8N...Crazy thing...that is where the doe live during daylight...go figure!

 What he has said is spot on in many instances.

Edited March 14, 2017 by growalot

[Death From Above]

His post stated that they used cameras to select the top three or four bucks to target.  It is in the second paragraph.

It certainly varies area to area for sure.  We have had seasons where we had we had four to five bucks that appeared to be three years old or better on our property.  Since the hard winters (two in a row) we had a couple years back, we have had just one of those in each of the last two seasons.  I personally think that has a lot to do with our new neighbors who like helping their friends and families by filling all their buck tags for them as well.  Hearing them brag to others about the 6 bucks that one of them killed in a year is hard to hear, and if true, hard to compete with.  I hope that is not the norm, and I don’t bring it up to hear than AR won’t solve poaching and that I should call the DEC.

Point is, not all areas of NY are blessed with mature bucks in abundance, and in some instances, they might be a rarity.  Some areas might see low numbers of older bucks even with completely compliant and legal buck harvest (please don’t see my suggestion that poaching is a major problem everywhere), if the hunting pressure is pretty good.  Just don’t like being told that I may not be harvesting older bucks due to my hunting ability or tactics because they are out there and I just can’t find them.    I run 7-8 cameras for 8 months a year on our food plots and lots of other good habitat.  Some years we just don’t have many older bucks to choose from, and where I choose to sit and watch for them on our property isn’t going to change that.  Years like last year our best chance was hoping for a buck form outside our property to come through looking for does.

[G-Man]

58 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

So if I put my cameras out like you do and I don't get pictures of the bucks that you speak of, does your theory about learning how to hunt still work?  Or do I just not know where to put my cameras?

 

You missed the type.of cover being hunted as well.. If you have 5 acres of open hardwoods your not going to get any daytime picture a of good older bucks.. Just like sitting over an open field won't get.you a big one except on a rare ocasion if it's pushed or chasing a doe.

Having more older bucks in an area will not make them appear in an. Open field or open hardwoods ..they will do what all older buck do. Stick to cover

[G-Man]

13 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

His post stated that they used cameras to select the top three or four bucks to target.  It is in the second paragraph.

It certainly varies area to area for sure.  We have had seasons where we had we had four to five bucks that appeared to be three years old or better on our property.  Since the hard winters (two in a row) we had a couple years back, we have had just one of those in each of the last two seasons.  I personally think that has a lot to do with our new neighbors who like helping their friends and families by filling all their buck tags for them as well.  Hearing them brag to others about the 6 bucks that one of them killed in a year is hard to hear, and if true, hard to compete with.  I hope that is not the norm, and I don’t bring it up to hear than AR won’t solve poaching and that I should call the DEC.

Point is, not all areas of NY are blessed with mature bucks in abundance, and in some instances, they might be a rarity.  Some areas might see low numbers of older bucks even with completely compliant and legal buck harvest (please don’t see my suggestion that poaching is a major problem everywhere), if the hunting pressure is pretty good.  Just don’t like being told that I may not be harvesting older bucks due to my hunting ability or tactics because they are out there and I just can’t find them.    I run 7-8 cameras for 8 months a year on our food plots and lots of other good habitat.  Some years we just don’t have many older bucks to choose from, and where I choose to sit and watch for them on our property isn’t going to change that.  Years like last year our best chance was hoping for a buck form outside our property to come through looking for does.

Your problem is poaching.. Why you dont report it is your business.. Ar would not change that as they would still kill the bucks.. As for your situation personally I can show you hundreds of hunters who have hunted the same piece of property for decades who bitch about there being no bucks.. While that brush draw they hunted 20 years ago has grown into a mature woods and the bucks are now on neighbors land using that clear cut to cruise for does..  Ar's will not solve that issue.. And unfortunately that is the case for many hunters.. On friend had same problem unroll he cut some timber and left tops.. Now deer are all over his place as he enjoys what the habitat can provide.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, Death From Above said:

So if I put my cameras out like you do and I don't get pictures of the bucks that you speak of, does your theory about learning how to hunt still work?  Or do I just not know where to put my cameras?

 

if his neighbor were to place his cameras like he placed his stands, I would think the results would be similar. 

[Death From Above]

11 minutes ago, G-Man said:

You missed the type.of cover being hunted as well.. If you have 5 acres of open hardwoods your not going to get any daytime picture a of good older bucks.. Just like sitting over an open field won't get.you a big one except on a rare ocasion if it's pushed or chasing a doe.

Having more older bucks in an area will not make them appear in an. Open field or open hardwoods ..they will do what all older buck do. Stick to cover

Agreed.  I bow hunt during the entire season here in the Northern Tier.  Guns are blazing, and I still am crazy enough to hang the bow in the tree with me.  This also means that I stick to heavy cover for several reasons.  That is where I see the deer, and to your point, not in the open fields or hardwoods.  Add the fact the majority of my hunting season sees them rather skittish due to both the guns and the fact that gun hunting allows for a good bit more of human movement (still hunting) and deer drives, then heavier security cover is where I spend my time in.

Have to say, the thing that has cost me the most opportunity to harvest older bucks is the weapon I choose to take with me.  That is A HUGE reason that I don't hunt open areas.  I hate sitting there watching nice bucks walk by at 100 yards with my bow in my hand.  When it is a big one that I am really excited about harvesting, and I see him walking in the wide open, it makes me wonder what I am doing.  Guess I just love to bow hunt, and I have come to realize that limits my potential to shoot bigger bucks up here in the northern tier.  While this is 100% my choice,  I still can't help wishing we could do more to increase the number of older bucks in my herd. but that is just my opinion.

[Five Seasons]

are we changing anyone's minds yet or just repeating ourselves?

[Death From Above]

34 minutes ago, G-Man said:

Your problem is poaching.. Why you dont report it is your business.. Ar would not change that as they would still kill the bucks.. As for your situation personally I can show you hundreds of hunters who have hunted the same piece of property for decades who bitch about there being no bucks.. While that brush draw they hunted 20 years ago has grown into a mature woods and the bucks are now on neighbors land using that clear cut to cruise for does..  Ar's will not solve that issue.. And unfortunately that is the case for many hunters.. On friend had same problem unroll he cut some timber and left tops.. Now deer are all over his place as he enjoys what the habitat can provide.

 

I think I mentioned that AR would not solve those issues, probably twice in that post.

We have 300 acres which we manage for bow hunting.  10 acres of food plots, probably 80 acres of sanctuary that doesn’t get touched unless we blood trail a deer into it.  We also have a good bit of swamp that makes me question how the deer even use it (but believe me they do).  I am not telling you I am a super hunter, or a know-it-all, but I am pretty sure that we do a good job managing our property for our bow hunting needs. 

I will gladly read you suggestions, and I understand you think that we may be not hunting it correctly.  I am just saying that it is hard to be sure what others experience by only using your own personal observations to determine what they are seeing.  It is just possible that we are accurate in understanding what the current potential is in our area.  As I have said many times here, I think that there are much better solutions to handling the issue that AR would be put in to address, and those would better solve our issues here with our neighbors to some extent as well.  Those changes are less likely to occur than AR.

I don’t have to go back very far or look to other hunters to find good success on our property.  I killed a 140” just about five years ago, and we had pictures of one bigger and saw another one comparable a well during that same season.  I expect that we had that success in large part because were doing just what you are now doing.  We were waiting for the bigger ones, and we still are.  However, what other hunters do around you impacts your own efforts sometimes. You can certainly suggest that our situation is not the norm, and I can show you another township near me that offers outstanding bucks because of how the area has really pushed for the QDM theory.  I’d say that most of the state might fit comfortably in the middle and that most areas will certainly hold a few big bucks like you are suggesting.  I just happen to be for increasing the potential of buck numbers in the state, even if my hunting spot was fantastic by those standards already.

[Death From Above]

13 minutes ago, Belo said:

are we changing anyone's minds yet or just repeating ourselves?

Yup.  Think I'd go with the repeating theory...

[Lawdwaz]

I'd like a brief breakdown on the goings-on here.  

100 words or less.....

[G-Man]

33 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

I'd like a brief breakdown on the goings-on here.  

100 words or less.....

Here are the questions that are not addressed.. 

Will passing yearling based on points make us shoot bigger bucks because there Will be more of them or will we still lack success as they are older but more experienced and will avoid us same as older deer do now?

Yes individual experiences will vary across the state but an individual filling all the buck tags for everyone in the party will not and isn't that a bigger problem? 

Does anyone think perhaps just using continuing education is better than exceptions based on age? Do you get a break if you start hunting at 30? And if so for how many years..how do you enforce it?

 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

49 minutes ago, Belo said:

are we changing anyone's minds yet or just repeating ourselves?

are we changing anyone's minds yet or just repeating ourselves?

[moog5050]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 3:02 PM, phade said:

 

I had this great witty response and I can't post it because it only reverts back to a less than witty response to Phade that I started to draft and decided not to post.  But now I expect FREEDOM like William Wallace.  Speaking of which, great movie for a snow day!

[growalot]

Sorry I didn't catch that DFA...that said...you have a problem ,one I know all too well...and there are guys on here that think that's OK..hey a tag is a tag...BS!...I would rather see a one buck rule over AR's because what all this really boils down to is more and bigger buck sightings , not herd health or any of the other smoke and mirrors tossed out as feel good reasoning. Would it help? Not in all areas because...There are too many let me fill your buck tag for you and sure my wife hunts. BS...My kid who is in college 5 states away is hunting too.The majority of that isn't doe tags being filled...especially in areas like mine where you can get up to 6 doe tags every year...it's the buck tags they use...but Try and get certain DEC regions to do anything about it...not all but one in particular comes to mind....Though that would increase hunter registration and tag income...Watch how many wives and kids suddenly become hunters, you know, that's what happened during the party permit days. One buck rule would make the DEC and big buck hunters somewhat happy.

No ones minds will ever be changed...I can't wait to see what the next 2 yrs bring...Cross bows are a done deal the writing is on the wall...I think the harvest report will take an interesting turn..for better or worse.

 

[Death From Above]

20 minutes ago, growalot said:

Sorry I didn't catch that DFA...that said...you have a problem ,one I know all too well...and there are guys on here that think that's OK..hey a tag is a tag...BS!...I would rather see a one buck rule over AR's because what all this really boils down to is more and bigger buck sightings , not herd health or any of the other smoke and mirrors tossed out as feel good reasoning. Would it help? Not in all areas because...There are too many let me fill your buck tag for you and sure my wife hunts. BS...My kid who is in college 5 states away is hunting too.The majority of that isn't doe tags being filled...especially in areas like mine where you can get up to 6 doe tags every year...it's the buck tags they use...but Try and get certain DEC regions to do anything about it...not all but one in particular comes to mind....Though that would increase hunter registration and tag income...Watch how many wives and kids suddenly become hunters, you know, that's what happened during the party permit days. One buck rule would make the DEC and big buck hunters somewhat happy.

No ones minds will ever be changed...I can't wait to see what the next 2 yrs bring...Cross bows are a done deal the writing is on the wall...I think the harvest report will take an interesting turn..for better or worse.

 

 

Cannot disagree with any of your thoughts. 

If it came down to it, and if in my dream world we could choose between AR and a one buck tag rule, I’d take the one buck tag change personally.  I guess I realize that none of the issues with either reported harvests or “bonus” buck tags are completely avoidable or solvable.  However, I’d love to see a way of making it more difficult to take advantage of by those who choose to play by their own rules.  If AR made multiple buck tags harder to fill, or half of the tags available were gone based on the single buck rule, at least it is plausible to think that abuse as it happens in some areas might be a bit riskier. 

Add to this that I’d like to think that the majority of our hunters are very ethical, then the one buck tag would likely limit the number of bucks taken overall.  But when someone says that they don’t think they have had a successful season without filling both buck tags (and there is nothing wrong with that due to the fact that is perfectly legal in NY right now), I am quite sure that many would not go for that change.

[wolc123]

On 3/11/2017 at 0:37 PM, wolc123 said:

 I do not consider a hunting season a complete success, unless I kill two bucks. 

 

2 hours ago, Death From Above said:

 

 But when someone says that they don’t think they have had a successful season without filling both buck tags (and there is nothing wrong with that due to the fact that is perfectly legal in NY right now), I am quite sure that many would not go for that change.

 

To me, any season that ends with enough meat (4-5 average sized deer) in the freezer is successful.  As I stated on 3/11, it is only the ones where two of those are bucks, that I consider completely successful.   A one buck rule would bother me a bit, but my suffering would be minimized with full inclusion of the crossbow.  That would make replacing that missing buck in the freezer with a doe a much easier proposition.   

[Death From Above]

22 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

 

 

To me, any season that ends with enough meat (4-5 average sized deer) in the freezer is successful.  As I stated on 3/11, it is only the ones where two of those are bucks, that I consider completely successful.   A one buck rule would bother me a bit, but my suffering would be minimized with full inclusion of the crossbow.  That would make replacing that missing buck in the freezer with a doe a much easier proposition.   

Sorry, know that sounded like I was being critical.  You are well within your right to fill both of the those tags for sure.  Heck, I miss the days around here when I felt if I didn't fill all my doe tags it wasn't a successful year.  For a few years now I've felt like I had to hold off from filling those tags even though they are in my pocket.  Look forward to seeing 15-20 deer a hunt again someday, hopefully. That was always fun and I think I almost get just as excited about shooting does with my bow as I do about bucks.

 

[phade]

I had this great witty response and I can't post it because it only reverts back to a less than witty response to Phade that I started to draft and decided not to post.  But now I expect FREEDOM like William Wallace.  Speaking of which, great movie for a snow day!

Lawyers get snow days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[moog5050]

30 minutes ago, phade said:

Lawyers get snow days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Closed our office at 2pm today.  But don't worry, I am still billing you!

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

Well we sure don't see much EHD in the state of Ny and studies of CWD of over 50 years has yet to show 1 negitive effect on the health or loss of any wild herds in any state. CWD does not kill deer before man kills them to see if they have CWD!  

If u carefully read my posts thats the point im getting across,through natural selection the strong will find there place, antler growth is no inducation of strong genetics . And this notion of, we have to let bucks grow, and " cull this buck" becaus it has bad genetics ( low antler potential) is absurd especially the hunters stating, " its for a healthier herd"

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk