SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Rack Attack]

Interesting...

http://www.bowhunter.com/feature_articles/feature_articles_bw_antlers_0409/

[Death From Above]

2 hours ago, grampy said:

So, I will respectfully ask. Are you advocating a forced change, through legislation, that will force your neighbors to conform to "your" way of managing the deer herd, on their property? And as previously confirmed, our properties are different. So will I be forced through legislation, to change what may be working for me? So that you can have better bucks on your property? Is either one of our properties more worthy, as to have someone else force their idea, of what constitutes, a quality hunting experience, on the other?

 

Grampy, I guess that I see the reasoning for AR as different than just the “quality” of bucks or the “quality” of the hunting.  As a hunter I would selfishly like to see AR.  But the key word is selfishly.  I agree with you that my motivation would be selfish if I wanted to forcibly control what my neighbors could shoot just so that I could shoot bigger bucks.  Likewise, their opposition might be selfish in origin as well, because they would like the choice to shoot what they want rather than be told what is OK.  For this reason I see very easily why you might oppose AR, and I cannot come up with a reason to argue when we talk about our selfish desires as hunters.

You may or may not believe me when I say that my opinions on this are not selfish in nature, and I do see that it might sound funny that I might want what to optimize our buck to doe numbers for “herd health”.  I also readily admit that there are advantages to this ratio that could directly effect my quality of hunting in a way that I perceive to be an improvement.  That is undeniable, and it certainly can be viewed as a determent to others freedom to choose.  I can’t argue that, and nothing I can say would likely convince anyone that my desire to see a more natural and diverse age to our bucks, and to our ratio of bucks to does, might simply fall in line to produce a more natural deer herd that is not as easily influenced by the impact we as hunters place on it.  These suggestions/proposals/legislative actions would ultimately improve my personal hunting, and I understand that makes me guilty in most people’s eyes as selfishly supporting any legislation that might benefit my experiences in the woods.

I have hunted in only four other states for whitetail.  I see the difference in a more stable and positive buck to doe ratio.  It certainly effects the hunting, and not just when considering antler size.  You can continually argue that this topic might be driven by those who want to shoot bigger bucks, and I AGREE that you are likely correct.  No argument for me on that.  I just would love to do something that optimizes our deer herd in a fashion similar to the article a page or two back, which pretty much mirrors my thoughts in a post I made about how AR would benefit our deer a few pages in this thread before that – not just the benefits it provides our hunters.  However, I cannot escape that the possibility of legislation is not being viewed through the eyes of the biologist or what is best for the whitetail deer, but it has come down to how it effects the right of the hunters.  I naively wish we could set it aside and do what might be best for the deer.  However, as you point out very well, most only see what they want their hunting experience to be as the determining factor of what changes might be important to the deer herd. 

To answer your question better, I guess that I'd be willing to lose choice and even bag limits if it was good for the deer I hunt.   I would hope that others would feel the same, but that doesn't seem to be a focus of what we discuss.  It only seem to be based on the hunter's satisfaction, regardless of what might be better for the deer. 

Final example:  After two rough winters our deer numbers were down in my area for a few years IMO.  I chose not to shoot any does during that season after I realized how few deer sightings we had.  Our neighbors complained big time as well, everyone was concerned.  My response was not to shoot any does even though we seemed to be attracting a lot of does into our brassica plots in the late seasons.  Our neighboring properties handled it differently.  The just put deer drives on and killed the few does they could find.   I felt I needed to do something better for the deer in our area, AND YES it certainly had an effect and likely improved my hunting in the next season or two.  Our neighbors were not as concerned about the deer numbers, but instead just in their opportunity to kill the deer that season.   Two different ways of looking at it, and two different ways of handling it.  Didn't mean that I didn't want to shoot a few deer those two seasons, just meant that I wanted to do something to benefit our deer herd.  For the record, neither method was illegal.  Just different points of view. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, tuckersdaddy said:

If you dont believe hunters dont chase rumors, hot tips, or any other lead that comes along you hunting land is privite and sucluded. Want to have some fun? post some pics of solid 8 or 10pt and slowly let it slide where thus big deer is 'at'. Just pick any cross roads on stateland. Put a trail cam up and watch the amount of traffic you get opening week. So as this new AR proposal goes into effect, It will get all sorts of praise.. Look at all these 8pt plus racks out program grows, check out these bucks from Madison county..... Next year there will be no stateland you will be able to comfortably hunt in Madison county, as the chasers flock.

Now for the QDMA... There website is where I verified them being a 504c. Which ever way this prop falls will effect the popularity of the organisation here in NY... giving them a vested intrest... less people less money.. that simple. Im not downing thier processes on growing deer, just the money push behind it. WNY ill buy you a beer sometime and explain the whole deal... but whats on the surface is a sales pitch.

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What you were insinuating was that NY was going to become some "hot spot" for out of state hunters, a destination, which would infer that it would become like the midwest. It wont for the reasons I listed. Im not talking about local guys trying to gain access to the farms or surrounding land that a few trail cam pictures came from. That happens now.

 

I dont need for you to explain the QDMA to me, I was involved in the organization as an officer and board member of a branch up until earlier this year. I know what their goals are, what their stance is on ARs and AR legislation. They are a 501c3 btw.

[growalot]

Just for the hell of it lets play this game...take a guess at the age of this buck and say why...

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

Just for the hell of it lets play this game...take a guess at the age of this buck and say why...

Isnt that a doe, i dont see a pedicle

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[growalot]

Is it?....if it were ,not saying one way or another...could you age it?

Edited March 22, 2017 by growalot

[Buckmaster7600]

Just for the hell of it lets play this game...take a guess at the age of this buck and say why...

Unless that's a pure bred Irish I'm thinking that's a doe. Grow if you can't tell the difference between a buck or a doe I don't think you should be worried about aging.

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[ManicOutdoorsman92]

Is it?....if it were ,not saying one way or another...could you age it?

Well its hard to judge from a photo, and with the snow is hard to see the length of the legs, that said it has an awefully short nose, gonna have to guess fawn

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[ManicOutdoorsman92]

Well its hard to judge from a photo, and with the snow is hard to see the length of the legs, that said it has an awefully short nose, gonna have to guess fawn

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Unless that's a pure bred Irish I'm thinking that's a doe. Grow if you can't tell the difference between a buck or a doe I don't think you should be worried about aging.
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It could be a year old, oh excuse me 1 1/2, hard to tell from pics the heads slighty angled so the nose may not be as short as it looks DID I WIN?!

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[Doewhacker]

16 minutes ago, ManicOutdoorsman92 said:

 

 

 

 

It could be a year old, oh excuse me 1 1/2, hard to tell from pics the heads slighty angled so the nose may not be as short as it looks DID I WIN?!

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You don't have to add the 1/2 all year you know, lol 

Its almost 1.75 at this point, it was born on a Tuesday at 137pm. West wind. 

 

[moog5050]

Was it wearing an orange collar before the photo was taken?

[growalot]

Your making assumptions my dear....as I said I'm not saying one way or another..though sex aside I see no estimates from you ..or Mr wise mouth...

Give Manic credit for questioning it though...

This is a telling post already.

Edited March 22, 2017 by growalot

[moog5050]

Grow it is obviously a young deer.  What is your point?

Edited March 22, 2017 by moog5050

[growalot]

Just looking to see who has what opinions and why..wasn't referring to you as Mr smart mouth.....It was a straight up question in a thread talking about deer age structure..curious..take the rack away and what happens ?

[growalot]

BTW...what are your points to it being a young deer...How young a deer?

[dbHunterNY]

7 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

We are back to the "need" portion of this. Let's say these hunters in these areas that were skipped were more likely to let the yearlings walk. That probably shouldn't have any bearing if we are being honest. If they are letting "enough" yearlings walk now wouldn't it be "better" to even let more walk?

The areas you are referring to about effect on antlerless harvest can't compared to areas like 8H where there are permits available the last day of the season. There aren't any or very few co-op's. It is a lot of broken tracts of habitat with access issues. I know hunters that say they only need a deer or two and they are done hunting. if that small 6 comes through at 7 am they are taking it. Remove that option and they will take the does to meet that one to two deer goal. I can see how having limited permits may yield other results. 

Again. If it is good for these other areas why not just have at it and get it over with. The some in and some out and others with 3 and some with 4 is BULL$HIT and typical NY. 

Why not just bite the bullet. Let's put ALL antleress into a lottery regardless of the seaon or weapon used. put the entire state at a 4 point minimum and close ALL buck hunting for 2 years. 

i think you're not being realistic in that neither one of us can determine and define the "need" for areas throughout NYS, but it should be defined none the less. collectively with an open minded DEC that can be done.  percentage of yearling bucks protected isn't much different than say doe harvest quota for a property, they're both a close approximation.  your right that at some point "better" isn't worth it.  there's areas in NY that aren't even close to that situation though, despite pushing education like crazy.  i've been told that number's probably around 60+% or so for yearlings being harvested that would substantiate action.  using statewide stats to dissolve any apparent deer management short comings just aren't being accepted anymore, because some areas are getting the shaft in comparison. i agree with the all or nothing, despite likelihood of hunters being okay with that is less likely.  with absolute certainty it is not BS that the restrictions would vary in different parts of the state.  they have to in order to achieve a common goal.

National and state we're associated with seem to be following up on DEC's intent and direction with the whole young buck protection, to make sure education and effort doesn't fall off flat so soon.  there's still not the best working relationship with DEC though, maybe due to actions of some people and despite some of us go out of our way to help it improve.

DEC's management (for doe included) is structured around buck harvest and the buck take objective. yet things are getting shaky introducing this voluntary buck protection road they've already started heading down.  in my opinion, they should get statistically sufficient data to start looking at buck harvest at the WMU level, enough to determine where things like high yearling buck harvest show up.  then they should to do something about it to steer the ship and let hunters sail between the navigational buoys.  whether that's one buck only, ARs, or whatever i really don't care.  nobody's asking for a miracle, just to be more proactive.  otherwise stuff like this legislation won't be going way and instead just stall progress.  pushing against things like ARs regardless if it effects you only fuels things like this legislation.  it's imposing your will on other people no differently with the tool of choice being ARs.  heck the branches across NYS were just pooled and ones that opposed ARs were in the minority.  it's beating a dead horse to claim more surveys are needed.  the ones opposed are just trying to be the loudest in the room. bigger antlers is the last reason i'm doing it, despite if you'd asked me years ago my answer would've been different.   the idea that hunter "needs" trump conservation, i'll never understand.  deer aren't just a commodity i pay for with a bullet.

[moog5050]

13 minutes ago, growalot said:

BTW...what are your points to it being a young deer...How young a deer?

Short snout, short ears.  I would guess a 1yr old doe but I guess it could be going on 2.  It's definitely not a big ole doe.  

[dbHunterNY]

30 minutes ago, growalot said:

Just looking to see who has what opinions and why..wasn't referring to you as Mr smart mouth.....It was a straight up question in a thread talking about deer age structure..curious..take the rack away and what happens ?

it's an adult doe.  it gets shot.  it's obviously young.  from a deer management stand point that i care about anyway it's younger than 4.5 yrs old.  hold onto the orange collar give me the jawbone and i'll give you more detail.  the testosterone filled buck characteristics don't all apply to doe.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

i think you're not being realistic in that neither one of us can determine and define the "need" for areas throughout NYS, but it should be defined none the less. collectively with an open minded DEC that can be done.  percentage of yearling bucks protected isn't much different than say doe harvest quota for a property, they're both a close approximation.  your right that at some point "better" isn't worth it.  there's areas in NY that aren't even close to that situation though, despite pushing education like crazy.  i've been told that number's probably around 60+% or so for yearlings being harvested that would substantiate action.  using statewide stats to dissolve any apparent deer management short comings just aren't being accepted anymore, because some areas are getting the shaft in comparison. i agree with the all or nothing, despite likelihood of hunters being okay with that is less likely.  with absolute certainty it is not BS that the restrictions would vary in different parts of the state.  they have to in order to achieve a common goal.
National and state we're associated with seem to be following up on DEC's intent and direction with the whole young buck protection, to make sure education and effort doesn't fall off flat so soon.  there's still not the best working relationship with DEC though, maybe due to actions of some people and despite some of us go out of our way to help it improve.

DEC's management (for doe included) is structured around buck harvest and the buck take objective. yet things are getting shaky introducing this voluntary buck protection road they've already started heading down.  in my opinion, they should get statistically sufficient data to start looking at buck harvest at the WMU level, enough to determine where things like high yearling buck harvest show up.  then they should to do something about it to steer the ship and let hunters sail between the navigational buoys.  whether that's one buck only, ARs, or whatever i really don't care.  nobody's asking for a miracle, just to be more proactive.  otherwise stuff like this legislation won't be going way and instead just stall progress.  pushing against things like ARs regardless if it effects you only fuels things like this legislation.  it's imposing your will on other people no differently with the tool of choice being ARs.  heck the branches across NYS were just pooled and ones that opposed ARs were in the minority.  it's beating a dead horse to claim more surveys are needed.  the ones opposed are just trying to be the loudest in the room. bigger antlers is the last reason i'm doing it, despite if you'd asked me years ago my answer would've been different.   the idea that hunter "needs" trump conservation, i'll never understand.  deer aren't just a commodity i pay for with a bullet.

You are missing my point. If ARs are truly all that then why not do it across the board. Why complicate it? Is there a point where they are bad? It's touted as the end all be all so let's just do it. No need to complicated things with had to follow delineations. Skipped areas and multiple variables. Just do it then.

I want to know where you are getting the "fact" that most branches support this? Be curious to hear that one.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

i think you're not being realistic in that neither one of us can determine and define the "need" for areas throughout NYS, but it should be defined none the less. collectively with an open minded DEC that can be done.  percentage of yearling bucks protected isn't much different than say doe harvest quota for a property, they're both a close approximation.  your right that at some point "better" isn't worth it.  there's areas in NY that aren't even close to that situation though, despite pushing education like crazy.  i've been told that number's probably around 60+% or so for yearlings being harvested that would substantiate action.  using statewide stats to dissolve any apparent deer management short comings just aren't being accepted anymore, because some areas are getting the shaft in comparison. i agree with the all or nothing, despite likelihood of hunters being okay with that is less likely.  with absolute certainty it is not BS that the restrictions would vary in different parts of the state.  they have to in order to achieve a common goal.
National and state we're associated with seem to be following up on DEC's intent and direction with the whole young buck protection, to make sure education and effort doesn't fall off flat so soon.  there's still not the best working relationship with DEC though, maybe due to actions of some people and despite some of us go out of our way to help it improve.

DEC's management (for doe included) is structured around buck harvest and the buck take objective. yet things are getting shaky introducing this voluntary buck protection road they've already started heading down.  in my opinion, they should get statistically sufficient data to start looking at buck harvest at the WMU level, enough to determine where things like high yearling buck harvest show up.  then they should to do something about it to steer the ship and let hunters sail between the navigational buoys.  whether that's one buck only, ARs, or whatever i really don't care.  nobody's asking for a miracle, just to be more proactive.  otherwise stuff like this legislation won't be going way and instead just stall progress.  pushing against things like ARs regardless if it effects you only fuels things like this legislation.  it's imposing your will on other people no differently with the tool of choice being ARs.  heck the branches across NYS were just pooled and ones that opposed ARs were in the minority.  it's beating a dead horse to claim more surveys are needed.  the ones opposed are just trying to be the loudest in the room. bigger antlers is the last reason i'm doing it, despite if you'd asked me years ago my answer would've been different.   the idea that hunter "needs" trump conservation, i'll never understand.  deer aren't just a commodity i pay for with a bullet.

You are missing my point. If ARs are truly all that then why not do it across the board. Why complicate it? Is there a point where they are bad? It's touted as the end all be all so let's just do it. No need to complicated things with had to follow delineations. Skipped areas and multiple variables. Just do it then.

I want to know where you are getting the "fact" that most branches support this? Be curious to hear that one.

[Buckmaster7600]

Your making assumptions my dear....as I said I'm not saying one way or another..though sex aside I see no estimates from you ..or Mr wise mouth...
Give Manic credit for questioning it though...
This is a telling post already.

You literally said how old is this BUCK! I think that's saying one way or the other.


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

40 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

You literally said how old is this BUCK! I think that's saying one way or the other.


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That's what it said all right.........

[wolc123]

A true tale of two bucks:

Prior to last season, I was dead set against AR's.  Two bucks, who's home range included our farm last year, changed my opinion on that.   They may have been brothers or cousins, possibly even father and son, but they were almost always together.   The smaller one was a 1-1/2 year old three-point, and the larger one was a 2-1/2 year old eight-point.  My neighbor to the west was the first one to see this pair, on the first week of archery season.   He was holding out for an older buck, so he passed on each.  He did kill a nice doe that day.  He told me about the bucks, when he dropped her off for me to butcher. 

Near the end of archery season, on an afternoon hunt, the three-point stepped out of some thick cover.   He walked within 15 yards of my stand, stopped and turned away, offering me a "chip-shot" if there ever was one.   I passed, not so much due to his tiny rack, but because of his equally small body.   After standing there for a few minutes, he continued off our farm, into some heavy cover, on my neighbor's to the east. 

5 minutes later, his "big brother" showed up on the same track.  His body looked to be about 2x larger than the little guy.  He looked like decent 8-point, based on the horn on my side.  I decided immediately that he was a "shooter".   He did not offer me the  same "chip shot", but detoured around into a corn field on the other side of the hedgerow that my stand was on.   It was peak rut, and I could smell him as he approached from upwind.  When he stepped out of the corn, about 20 yards away, my arrow sliced thru behind his shoulder.   He stumbled about 50 yards, out into an open field, and dropped dead in sight.   He only had 5 points left, with both brow tines and another point broken off during the rut.  That did not bother me too much, because I hunt mainly for the meat.

Fast-forward two weeks, to Thanksgiving morning.  After gun-hunting the first hour, I heard two shots to the east, from the spot where that little buck had disappeared into.   My neighbor's nephew killed the little guy.   I saw the carcass out by the road, next to his truck, as we drove by on the way to the in-laws in the Adirondacks.  I killed a buck up there and when I was taking the scraps out to my bait pile, I ran into the guy out back.  He said he did not see those little antlers, and he thought he was shooting a doe.   

I now see two ways where MANDATORY AR's would have directly benefited me.   First, There would have been one more 2-1/2 year old (my favorite bucks to shoot) available for me this year.   Second, I would feel safer hunting back there, if these less experienced hunters would be forced to positively identify their targets before pulling the trigger.                         

[dbHunterNY]

You are missing my point. If ARs are truly all that then why not do it across the board. Why complicate it? Is there a point where they are bad? It's touted as the end all be all so let's just do it. No need to complicated things with had to follow delineations. Skipped areas and multiple variables. Just do it then.

I want to know where you are getting the "fact" that most branches support this? Be curious to hear that one.

I'm not really. I've agreed with you in that why not apply it all over, but that's not really what's on the table. Feel free to call your legislative reps and ask for it. Not really my area to do so.

Conference call just this past monday. Every branch was asked to have someone call in to represent them in addition to anyone on the SAC. The GRST branch had someone call in so I have to think you know about it or will. AR's were polled 8 in favor and 2 against. 4 others abstained for various reasons. I would've been on the call but had family matters to attend to.

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[growalot]

That's right and Manic questioned it and I answered. I said from the get go to give reasons for your answers. Why do you think I did that ?.  Why do you think I picked that particular picture? I'll tell you.

1. Close enough to the cam to show what looks like a difference in size between 2 deer

2. Pretty dark stained hocks. Buck or doe ...doe in heat will have staining so ?...

3 . Belly fur long"guard" hairs a bit forwards...blow the pic up, older doe udder area,fawn fatty, or penis? See it could pose a question

4 . Head turned just enough to question size and smooth or not..BTW buttonbucks never loose those "buttons" they just continue developing into their first rack the following season. You can see the deer in the back grounds right side button. Also here early drops which most did,will cover over in fur,especially on a first time small mass deer. Though buck and older doe show a particular forehead distinction and fur coloration.

5. All the deer here are fat and have sway bellies,even this time of year. I believe most of my past pics have shown that.

6. Then yes body definitions...length to height(clearly snow wasn't too deep 2") Neck length and line to chest . Back line...Oh,even how the tail hangs,most buck even in a relaxed state tend to tuck their tails to their genitals..doe  usuallyhave a more relaxed tail oh and leggy or not.

So that picture has a few things in it that one would or could question. Though I really wanted to see how many talking with such conviction on age structure and herd heath would be as vocal  in their knowledge when asked to age a healthy deer of unknown age and questionable sex. Take a rack away and have a few questionable things how much real knowledge is out there....

One person stepped up without getting  defensive,and gave honest opinion to what he saw..instead of trying to turn it into whether I knew it to be a buck or doe..one picture out of dozens in a series I posted and only a few responded...Moog yes you did give an answer but more concerned with my reasoning That should have been clear I did clearly say let's play a game. I got what I expected actually. Most avoided a couple questioned but answered and others turned it into a personal thing...pretty much standard..No one  simply just answered with reasons as asked.

Edited March 23, 2017 by growalot