SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Grizz1219]

As a side question... When is this all supposed to be voted on??? And when is it to take effect if it is passed???? 

[Doewhacker]

12 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

He is saying that he hunts where AR is already in place in NY. If you go to the DEC website they have data and information showing that it is working. Here I will show you for him as I have posted it before in this thread. Feel free to read through it.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/93857.html

Nope I know where he is from, butt out.

[Doewhacker]

17 minutes ago, Grizz1219 said:

As a side question... When is this all supposed to be voted on??? And when is it to take effect if it is passed???? 

It is in committee, no vote scheduled. It may never leave committee.

[Grizz1219]

36 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

It is in committee, no vote scheduled. It may never leave committee.

So allllllll of this could be for absolutely nothing but raising peoples BP????

[WNYBuckHunter]

51 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

first paragraph is beating a dead horse.  i think a majority of us posting here have reached a concensus that DEC data for ages needs improvement.  the info is there though and sometimes on a silver platter, DEC just has to be proactive and simply take some of it.  they can regulate because year to year they have the means to change those regulations.  you know deer management isn't a 'set it and forget it' kind of thing.  it should can evolve.  they don't need a majority just probably more than they get.

Its not beating a dead horse, it has everything to do with this proposal. The info is not there because the DEC doesnt collect it. Again, how can you base a management strategy on BS numbers and data?

i don't agree maybe due to semantics, but management techniques can be applied throughout the state and even throughout the country.  the devil is in their implementation and where it leads.  so i will agree with you in a sense that the decisions and what you get from them will be different. no where did i ever say this is my management plan and this will work everywhere else.  it's always been we use this and it'll work if you tailor it to your area.  if you don't agree i'd be lost for words.

I do agree that most management plans will start with the basics.

140" buck isn't relevant.  many deer out this way wouldn't see that score even if they lived a full life.  i get the point though it's big by most anyone's standards including for where you are.  where you are you've got bucks per square mile and better conditions to grow them bigger sooner.  i'm not in disagreement with you it's a nice situation to have.  not sure where you were going with the humble brag.  this area like any other area can produce nice bucks, but i'm not even going to entertain the idea that it can be compared to other places that might show up on the Sportman's Channel.  I mean God bless the Florida Keys trophy buck manager trying to grow a booner, but i'm just not that ignorant and ambitious.  i'm just saying out this way is different and a little change and go a long way to help.  i don't intend one imposing my will throughout the state.  some of you have faught against some decisions regardless of where it is or if it effects you.  DEC now thinks it's something not to be associated with to save face.  so here we are with legislation, despite i'd rather have regulation, that will give this area 3 points to a side.  i wish their were other provisions in the legislation for new hunters and not just youth.  this point i'm left with the mindset of i'll simply take what i can get despite i know it's not perfect.  i also i know nothing in life is.

I wasnt bragging, I was giving you a real world situation directly from one of the general areas where they want to put these regulations in. I used the number I did, because generally speaking, thats the ballpark for a really "big buck" in this area. Maybe you missed the point. The point was, that even without these types of regulations, there are "trophy" deer around to be hunted, you just have to learn how to hunt them. Not every hunter cares to do that, and I simply do not want to see those guys trampled on so that we can see a few more 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 year old deer in the woods. I would rather educate them about the benefits of letting younger bucks go, and let them make that decision on their own, you know, that "soft push" I was talking about earlier in the thread.

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

52 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

He is saying that he hunts where AR is already in place in NY. If you go to the DEC website they have data and information showing what you want to know.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/93857.html

That is not what he said

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Doewhacker said:

One more general question to all, if 70+% support AR's, why aren't they taking part now and not killing younger bucks. If they did then the over all 1.5 take should only be 30%.

Because they think that if they dont shoot that young, tender yearling, their neighbor might, and they cant have that happen. It really all boils down to people that like to talk the talk but have no self control IMO.

[Doewhacker]

18 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Because they think that if they dont shoot that young, tender yearling, their neighbor might, and they cant have that happen. It really all boils down to people that like to talk the talk but have no self control IMO.

Exactly.

And its ok to want to shoot lots of deer, been there done that and I am happy I did because I have so much more experience because of it. I could care less what the neighbor shoots, it doesn't influence how or what I hunt. .

[WNYBuckHunter]

17 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Exactly.

And its ok to want to shoot lots of deer, been there done that and I am happy I did because I have so much more experience because of it. I could care less what the neighbor shoots, it doesn't influence how or what I hunt. .

Yessir, not a damn thing wrong with it. Other than bucks, I like to try and stack em like cord wood most years.

[dbHunterNY]

20 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

dbHunterNY

If you are part of a 20,000 acre area that takes part in AR's already why would the state need to step in and make it a law?

If it is working how about showing your co-op data proving how AR's improve the health and age structure that is touted. Also provide a hunter satisfaction survey of the co-op members showing how blissfully happy they are.

Lead by example, show us all the benefits and results.

One more general question to all, if 70+% support AR's, why aren't they taking part now and not killing younger bucks. If they did then the over all 1.5 take should only be 30%.

despite you're like DEC and just asked for info in general versus anything specific which p*** me off i'll post some up later when i'm not at work, have access to everything, and get a chance.

a hunter satisfaction survey?  you mean like a DEC questionnaire?  funny guy.  we keep a more practical one going 24/7.  it's real time and more accurate.  inclusion in the co-op is completely voluntary.  if at any point a property wants to leave the co-op simply let us know and no longer participate.  landowner retention since it started has been at 95+%, assuming each property is equal.  if we went by acreage it'd be even less.

you're right another survey came out that was over 70% in favor of antler restrictions.  excuses are like (insert word here) everybody has them.  without it being regulation or something else there's no real way to be sure that if you let it walk some else won't shoot it.  many try and end up disappointed or assume the worst when the hear a shot in the general direction a passed buck crossed a property line.  come man.  you do live under a rock?  that's the most prevalent argument against voluntary restraint out there, passing otherwise legal bucks... "if i don't shoot it, someone else will."  besides you call your neighbor and tell him what you should have for an AR and then have him call his, etc.  let me know what the word around town ends up being.  you need to have an organized structured AR that's defined.  otherwise it's all he said it was this but she said it was this.

[dbHunterNY]

52 minutes ago, Grizz1219 said:

So allllllll of this could be for absolutely nothing but raising peoples BP????

no hopefully people get some useful info from it, read between the lines of the bickering.

[dbHunterNY]

1 hour ago, Doewhacker said:

Nope I know where he is from, butt out.

hahaha.... wow.

[Doewhacker]

30 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

despite you're like DEC and just asked for info in general versus anything specific which p*** me off i'll post some up later when i'm not at work, have access to everything, and get a chance.

a hunter satisfaction survey?  you mean like a DEC questionnaire?  funny guy.  we keep a more practical one going 24/7.  it's real time and more accurate.  inclusion in the co-op is completely voluntary.  if at any point a property wants to leave the co-op simply let us know and no longer participate.  landowner retention since it started has been at 95+%, assuming each property is equal.  if we went by acreage it'd be even less.

you're right another survey came out that was over 70% in favor of antler restrictions.  excuses are like (insert word here) everybody has them.  without it being regulation or something else there's no real way to be sure that if you let it walk some else won't shoot it.  many try and end up disappointed or assume the worst when the hear a shot in the general direction a passed buck crossed a property line.  come man.  you do live under a rock?  that's the most prevalent argument against voluntary restraint out there, passing otherwise legal bucks... "if i don't shoot it, someone else will."  besides you call your neighbor and tell him what you should have for an AR and then have him call his, etc.  let me know what the word around town ends up being.  you need to have an organized structured AR that's defined.  otherwise it's all he said it was this but she said it was this.

Again, you are hard to understand, I recommend proof reading and correcting punctuation.

 

So no survey has been done to support your claims of all in support in your group? Just asking.

What percentage of your current buck take are 1.5's? 2.5's and so on, how does it compare to other regions in and out of the current Ar zones.

I don't suppose you have a starting point before you started collecting data in the co-op?

One tidbit, I lived in the Town of Northumberland for a few years and all I ever heard was how bad the crooks were in the area and how I better shoot whatever came in blah blah blah. I had a night in the summer once where I Saw a handful of mature bucks that changed everything I had been told. All with in a mile radius of my house (not a part of your co-op). That was when I realized that the evil neighbors cant kill them all, nor can the next guy. It was all perception.

[Doewhacker]

1 hour ago, Grizz1219 said:

So allllllll of this could be for absolutely nothing but raising peoples BP????

I have found its not the subject matter that gets people razzed, it is how it is discussed.

[dbHunterNY]

9 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

Again, you are hard to understand, I recommend proof reading and correcting punctuation.

 

So no survey has been done to support your claims of all in support in your group? Just asking.  Whether my reply supported my claims or not is your opinion.  All hunters are not blissfully satisfied with everything.  As a group that hunts a property they are more satisfied than not.  If they weren't they'd get out.  why wouldn't they?  we also have a rep from each property attend meetings or collect tags or simply we go out of our way to talk to the group and get their thoughts.  i don't have a piece of paper though that says "are you happy? circle Y or N" and then another that has any sort of tally.

What percentage of your current buck take are 1.5's? 2.5's and so on, how does it compare to other regions in and out of the current Ar zones.  i can't give you the 2.5 % right now.  the yearling buck take % is very very low.  basically only first time, youth hunters, or a wounded deer being put out of it's misery.  our ARs are designed that way though. not sure what you mean by region but the yearling buck take in the surrounding area is high even with more 2.5+ yr olds being a biproduct of the co-op efforts.  DEC is closer to finalizing 2016 harvest when they do i'm going to ask for it to supplement hunter observations and the other stuff.  before the co-op started i'd bet money yearling take was over 60% for that area.  education, co-op's sheer size, and other similar efforts have improved that obviously.

I don't suppose you have a starting point before you started collecting data in the co-op? only DEC data and general observations.  some have observation logs and other stuff that's been shared.  that's the point though there wasn't really any good quantitative data before the co-op was started and collected it the first year.  since we've collected data though we've actually seen average # of points go up for each age class. we've seen opportunity and harvest increase for restriction compliant bucks. doe harvest has remained the same despite DEC says we shouldn't be seeing that many deer and will probably think about pumping the brakes.  we'll see.  this was an area where it was taboo to shoot a doe.  this past season we sent one in for CA aging that came back at 13.5 and we still have well over 30% of harvested doe coming in at 4.5+.  weights for both doe and bucks haven't changed enough to write about for each age class, they should slowly start to go up.  at this point we pretty much focus on herd management and not habitat yet.  average weights harvested in general did go up because there's slightly older age class deer being taken.

One tidbit, I lived in the Town of Northumberland for a few years and all I ever heard was how bad the crooks were in the area and how I better shoot whatever came in blah blah blah. I had a night in the summer once where I Saw a handful of mature bucks that changed everything I had been told. All with in a mile radius of my house (not a part of your co-op). That was when I realized that the evil neighbors cant kill them all, nor can the next guy. It was all perception.
Many people think the neighbors are more evil than they really are.  Many times you're probably trying to do the same thing.  you're just not on the same page.  One thing i've learned is that with ARs people are now more vested and make it a point to talk to their neighbor come hunting season. Even if they otherwise don't get along.

 

[ncountry]

I have said before that i am mostly on the side against antler restrictions.. After following and partipating a little in  these threads, I am thinking of climbing back on the fence..

It seems that most, who do not want the DEC to limit our choice in what buck you shoot are happy to limit our choice in how many we shoot.

If that is our option, I am fully onboard with antler restrictions. I usually try to shoot a buck that's 120" or more,Roughly.. I'm far from an expert... l have settled. If the rut is winding down  that bigger 6 or smaller 8 that got a pass before , is fair game    .If I'm successfully then I am monster hunting. Never been successfull on a monster....yet....lol.. So basically the 2nd tag allows me to have successful hunt on a decent N.Y. buck and still allow me to be in the woods and hunt for the next one. 

So for me anyways AR would not really take my choices away. OBR would definitely .. Like we say.....jmho

OBR is fine for those of us who can move on to another state to hunt a buck after filling their N.Y. tag. But many/most cannot . 

Edited April 5, 2017 by ncountry
More info

[grampy]

16 minutes ago, ncountry said:

I have said before that i am mostly on the side against antler restrictions.. After following and partipating a little in  these threads, I am thinking of climbing back on the fence..

It seems that most, who do not want the DEC to limit our choice in what buck you shoot are happy to limit our choice in how many we shoot.

If that is our option, I am fully onboard with antler restrictions. I usually try to shoot a buck that's 120" or more. Roughly, I'm far from an expert. If I'm successfully then I am monster hunting. Never been successfull on a monster....yet....lol.. So basically the 2nd tag allows me to have successful hunt on a decent N.Y. buck and still allow me to be in the woods and hunt for the next one. 

So for me anyways AR would not really take my choices away. OBR would definitely .. Like we say.....jmho

OBR is fine for those of us who can move on to another state to hunt a buck after filling their N.Y. tag. But many/most cannot . 

I can definitely see this side too, and it makes perfect sense to me. As you and I have common hunting goals. I can honestly say, that I've jumped on and off the fence a time or two during this discussion too. Mixed in with the absurd, there have been some very good points made, from totally different perspectives.

[Doewhacker]

So no survey has been done to support your claims of all in support in your group? Just asking.  Whether my reply supported my claims or not is your opinion.  All hunters are not blissfully satisfied with everything.  As a group that hunts a property they are more satisfied than not.  If they weren't they'd get out.  why wouldn't they?  we also have a rep from each property attend meetings or collect tags or simply we go out of our way to talk to the group and get their thoughts.  i don't have a piece of paper though that says "are you happy? circle Y or N" and then another that has any sort of tally.

Shorter answer, no survey done. If I were you I would think about stepping up to the plate and conducting a small survey and send it along with any pertinent info on the subject, that is if you want to push for AR's.

What percentage of your current buck take are 1.5's? 2.5's and so on, how does it compare to other regions in and out of the current Ar zones.  i can't give you the 2.5 % right now.  the yearling buck take % is very very low.  basically only first time, youth hunters, or a wounded deer being put out of it's misery.  our ARs are designed that way though. not sure what you mean by region but the yearling buck take in the surrounding area is high even with more 2.5+ yr olds being a biproduct of the co-op efforts.  DEC is closer to finalizing 2016 harvest when they do i'm going to ask for it to supplement hunter observations and the other stuff.  before the co-op started i'd bet money yearling take was over 60% for that area.  education, co-op's sheer size, and other similar efforts have improved that obviously.

I am interested in the results and percentages you are seeing. Hard data, not observations make a difference.

I don't suppose you have a starting point before you started collecting data in the co-op? only DEC data and general observations.  some have observation logs and other stuff that's been shared.  that's the point though there wasn't really any good quantitative data before the co-op was started and collected it the first year.  since we've collected data though we've actually seen average # of points go up for each age class. we've seen opportunity and harvest increase for restriction compliant bucks. doe harvest has remained the same despite DEC says we shouldn't be seeing that many deer and will probably think about pumping the brakes.  we'll see.  this was an area where it was taboo to shoot a doe.  this past season we sent one in for CA aging that came back at 13.5 and we still have well over 30% of harvested doe coming in at 4.5+.  weights for both doe and bucks haven't changed enough to write about for each age class, they should slowly start to go up.  at this point we pretty much focus on herd management and not habitat yet.  average weights harvested in general did go up because there's slightly older age class deer being taken.

 

It sounds like you are dealing with more than simple AR's in your group. I have hunted in AR area's, its not that big of a deal honestly. I just don't agree with it and find it to be useless in most of the state. If you look at where it began, it is areas with the highest hunter densities and poorest habitat. Kind of makes sense there, not at all in the rest of the state.

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, ncountry said:

 

It seems that most, who do not want the DEC to limit our choice in what buck you shoot are happy to limit our choice in how many we shoot.. 

I believe that allowing someone to choose what buck they want to shoot, which everyone does, is more important than shooting two of them each year, which very few do with any regularity. Cost vs benefits to me.

[moog5050]

I am holding off to be the 1000th reply before offering my opinion.  Won't be long now!

[NFA-ADK]

I will reply again, next year when we start this all over.

[dbHunterNY]

3 hours ago, Doewhacker said:

....it sounds like you are dealing with more than simple AR's in your group. I have hunted in AR area's, its not that big of a deal honestly. I just don't agree with it and find it to be useless in most of the state. If you look at where it began, it is areas with the highest hunter densities and poorest habitat. Kind of makes sense there, not at all in the rest of the state.

our restrictions are only slightly more complex.  we've got soon to be hunters not even in their teens figuring them out just fine.  point wise they're inline with what DEC would recommend for this area and what shows up in the legislation discussed.  however, we added spread to the restriction similar to a handful of state wildlife agencies do now.  the goal is we want to protect all yearlings (with exceptions for youth and new hunters) to see the true potential of what bucks could be at 2.5 yr old around here.  as well as push as much into the 2.5+ year old classes as possible to keep opportunity for a buck many would be happy with high as possible.  if people don't often see what they can shoot it won't be excepted.  especially as big as we are.  lot of people to please.  due to hunter density, habitat, and whatever else as soon as a buck is fair game it's usually taken around here.  seems we've got a hunter for every 30 acres come gun season and sometimes more.  groups of deer are driven by rifle shots more than anything. lol  no need to do drives.  just sit and wait.

[stubby68]

On 3/28/2017 at 7:49 AM, dbHunterNY said:

Our is only limiting the number of bucks you can take. Still leaves the choice to take a monster if you want and still let's the other take a spike if he wants. If it is truly about the health of the herd then why isn't cutting down the number of bucks taken better. Less bucks killed means more alive to grow older right? That would mean the next year there would more 2.5 year old bucks to kill. Meaning more 1.5 could make it out alive. It is OK to tell someone what size buck they can kill though because that means there will be more big bucks for those who want them horns. That is the whole point of AR trying to make there be a 160 inch buck behind every tree so the horn hunters can get as much bone as they want.. 

[stoneam2006]

I have said before that i am mostly on the side against antler restrictions.. After following and partipating a little in  these threads, I am thinking of climbing back on the fence..
It seems that most, who do not want the DEC to limit our choice in what buck you shoot are happy to limit our choice in how many we shoot.
If that is our option, I am fully onboard with antler restrictions. I usually try to shoot a buck that's 120" or more,Roughly.. I'm far from an expert... l have settled. If the rut is winding down  that bigger 6 or smaller 8 that got a pass before , is fair game    .If I'm successfully then I am monster hunting. Never been successfull on a monster....yet....lol.. So basically the 2nd tag allows me to have successful hunt on a decent N.Y. buck and still allow me to be in the woods and hunt for the next one. 
So for me anyways AR would not really take my choices away. OBR would definitely .. Like we say.....jmho
OBR is fine for those of us who can move on to another state to hunt a buck after filling their N.Y. tag. But many/most cannot . 

I think the OBR gets thrown around bc many AR guys believe AR's would increase the buck population and help the herd. When in all reality if they were concerned about the health of the herd they would be pushing OBR but they're not they want bone

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[growalot]

That's called compromise. See non AR supporters are willing to say hey if it is actually close to being for herd health, we are willing to compromise and drop a buck tag. Where AR supporters want the power to be dictators and there is no compromise in a dictatorship. It's all or nothing. More and bigger racks is all that will squelch their need to be top dogs.

Mathewzshooter...if you want to fit in you need to learn how snide really is worked..lol