Land purchase

[growalot]

Hey Biz..I have to ask ...with you disagreeing and thinking it's a waste..do you hunt it a lot?  Do you offer him any tax funds for your enjoment of his wasted money..Are you secretly hoping he wills it to you?  Now that sounded nasty but honesty not ment to be. Im curious

[moog5050]

11 hours ago, sodfather said:

Questions for you hunting land owners. Did you pay for the entire property out of pocket or a loan. I'm reading online 20,30 and maybe 50 percent down. I've been looking for about 2 years now and have been saving but just wanted to know if anyone has input before I go on. Thanks for the replies 

I think cash and/or a home equity loan are your best options.  At least with a home equity, you can deduct interest on your taxes.  I didn't even know that loans are available for recreational land.

[BizCT]

27 minutes ago, growalot said:

Hey Biz..I have to ask ...with you disagreeing and thinking it's a waste..do you hunt it a lot?  Do you offer him any tax funds for your enjoment of his wasted money..Are you secretly hoping he wills it to you?  Now that sounded nasty but honesty not ment to be. Im curious

I hunt it a few times per year (probably more this year than last year since now I can hunt with compound). No I don't pay for any of it, but instead do all of the work that we have done to the land. He has a bad lower back, so I posted the entire property, I raked, prepped, limed, planted small food plots, setup blinds for the both of us, etc. My Dad wouldn't accept any $ even if I offered. He can't get a deer out of this property without my help. There is no secret to my parents will, we have a very small family and they will leave everything to me and my brother 50/50. My brother doesn't hunt, so at that point either I would have to buy him out or we just get the land logged for $ and then sell it? Hopefully my Dad is around for another 30 years so I don't have to think about that stuff anytime soon.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Biz-R-OWorld

[Rack Attack]

I find a lot of the responses to this subject interesting.  It seem that a bunch of people feel that purchasing land to hunt is a waste of money or a poor investment that they would never want to do.  Just curious, are these the same people that are complaining about not enough hunting access on private land?  Are they the same ones that think that people should open up their private land to allow them to hunt, but would never buy land themselves to hunt on?  Just interesting...

[sodfather]

55 minutes ago, steve863 said:

I am with BIz on this one.  Unless you are going to live on it or your whole family will enjoy spending time on it, purchasing land just to hunt on is a poor investment.  Most especially if you need to finance it.  Don't forget the taxes you will be paying and will never get back.  Leases I'd go for, but purchasing now way.  I had a chance to purchase some land a few years back in the Catskill region.  Sure glad I didn't.  The region now has antler restrictions in effect, plus doe permits are getting harder and harder to get there.  Would have become a big waste of time, money and energy.

Purchased land a poor investment- Wrong a poor investment is a toy like a quad or snowmobiles 

Leases are paying rent on a apartment you'll never ever own.

A ton of work? Everything is a ton of work but what we have to tell the millennials everyday that work for me, you get out of it what you put in. Growie works on her land everyday but guessing she enjoys it. It's not work when your doing something you love.

[Core]

A check from a bank is equivalent to cash. I'd rather a cashier's check from a credit union than a pile of cash.

I know some local CUs will let you buy land with 30% down and about a 6% interest rate.

If you have home equity that would be even better (assuming you need a loan). Lower interest rate and tax deductible!

[Core]

1 hour ago, kpkot said:

I just read somewhere land generally increases in value 4-8% per year. That is a decent investment if you ask me. 

I guarantee in western new york it doesn't appreciate this quickly (at least not most of it). Certainly not after costs anyway.

I'll start by saying I want some land myself to hunt on. But that said, it is a bad investment. Don't get it to make money, get it if you want it, but don't pretend it's a good investment.

Here's a scenario recently. A guy asked if I wanted to lease his land close to my house. About $20/acre. 45 acres. This land is probably worth $150k.

If I had $150k sitting in a bank account, what's the smart thing to do here? Buy his land and pay property taxes each year so I can hunt it, or stick that into the stock market, collect $12k/year, subtract $1k from that 12 to pay for the lease? The latter, obviously. That way I'm also pretty liquid and can get that money if I want. And despite its ups and downs, the stock market requires no time or effort and long term it reliably offers gains superior to land investing in most areas. Our property taxes make land investing particularly problematic.

Until recently I was trying to buy land to build a home on. It proved very hard because the little remaining land left the landowners are greedy fools. I know they are greedy because the amount of money they are asking is so high that they let land sit on the market for years (overvalued). But, they think they are sitting on a gold mine. One guy in particular comes to mind he's now churning through realtors, he's been trying to sell his land for over five years. Had he simply taken an offer (I know he got a decent one) early on and put it in the stock market he'd already be ahead of where his current asking price is. Instead he sits there with all his equity tied up in a piece of land that he doesn't live on, and I doubt the farmer who farms it is even covering his annual tax burden. Another guy has been trying to sell his for over a decade. But he's just stubborn. Meanwhile what has the stock market done in the past decade?

It's hard to put money value to land you'll use a lot. if you think you will, go ahead and do it. I would, too. I would recommend against unless you think you'll use it a lot, though, as your money can better serve you elsewhere if you're looking to grow it.

[steve863]

31 minutes ago, sodfather said:

Purchased land a poor investment- Wrong a poor investment is a toy like a quad or snowmobiles 

Leases are paying rent on a apartment you'll never ever own.

A ton of work? Everything is a ton of work but what we have to tell the millennials everyday that work for me, you get out of it what you put in. Growie works on her land everyday but guessing she enjoys it. It's not work when your doing something you love.

A lease for hunting land is NOTHING like renting an apartment.  You are simply paying some money for a recreation you want to participate in.  You wouldn't be living on it like you would be doing in an apartment.  Once you don't want the lease, you simply don't renew it.  Case closed and no headaches unlike land that you would now have to try to sell if you owned it.

For myself any hunting land I'd purchase would be at least 2 or 3 hours drive from where I live.  My wife would surely not be interested in going to it more than once or twice a year, and with school and other activities the kids would probably not be able to go more than that either.  So for whom would I be purchasing this land for??  Just myself for the few trips a year I'd go hunting?   Would make absolutely NO sense, and quite honestly be a bit selfish.  Kids grow up fast, and I think it would be more beneficial to them and the whole family to be closer to them at this stage of life then me killing weekends by going upstate all by myself to check out the land.  That's my take on it anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by steve863

[steve863]

8 minutes ago, Core said:

 

I'll start by saying I want some land myself to hunt on. But that said, it is a bad investment. Don't get it to make money, get it if you want it, but don't pretend it's a good investment.

 

Thank you, you've nailed it right there!

 

 

 

[sodfather]

All good takes and interesting to hear all the different opinions, thanks definitely things to consider. But your all explaining your own situations. I would for sure use it a lot more than a couple weekends a year. The stock market yes of course that makes money I'm in it mostly mutual funds so not arguing that , I'm aware.. I don't want to get to be at an age we're im to old and tired to do the work that's involved. Definitely you all gave me some insight for sure 

[kpkot]

Many are saying its not a good investment,  but to each their own. Timber value roughly every 15 years can offer a nice bonus. We also lease to a farmer that covers our taxes, thats a nice perk. 

[moog5050]

Interesting comments.  A corvette isn't a good investment either but I owned one because it was fun to drive.  And it depreciated at a significantly greater rate than my hunting parcel (and cost more).  I bought 40 acres so that I know that I have a place to hunt no matter what (within 35 min of my home) and the cost was worth the piece of mind to me.  My parcel is 50% wetlands, which made it cheap to buy and cheap taxes.  Bonus is that it holds some great deer and hunts much larger due to the large number of transition lines throughout.   Doesn't hurt to have it surrounded by AG and a preserve where no hunting is permitted.  Sodfather, look for the right parcel and I suspect you will be happy you bought it.  I am.  Most items bought for recreational purposes aren't investments, but the pleasure is worth the cost to us.  And while not an investment, property will still hold value (or increase) better than that car or boat you bought to use for fun.  

[Core]

36 minutes ago, sodfather said:

 I don't want to get to be at an age we're im to old and tired to do the work that's involved. Definitely you all gave me some insight for sure 

Yeah, I get that. I pushed very, very hard this year looking for land for partly the same reason. I want it now. I don't want it when I'm 55 and the kids are gone and I'm basically maintaining land and mowing a bunch just for myself. I gave up on it this year because it's not doable in my area without paying spectacular costs (I'm possibly in the worst suburb of rochester to get a house with land).

But, things have a way of working out. Shortly after giving up I visited a friend's place and it's exactly what I would have loved: 20+ acres surrounded by crops and he has a refuge of trees with water down the middle. It's not over-populated with trees, and he keeps it mowed with his own trails. He has so many deer he doesn't know what to do with them so I'll be there every weekend this fall by the look of it. I'll pay him a day of labor cutting firewood.

[Core]

5 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Interesting comments.  A corvette isn't a good investment either but I owned one because it was fun to drive.  And it depreciated at a significantly greater rate than my hunting parcel (and cost more).  I bought 40 acres so that I know that I have a place to hunt no matter what (within 35 min of my home) and the cost was worth the piece of mind to me.  My parcel is 50% wetlands, which made it cheap to buy and cheap taxes.  Bonus is that it holds some great deer and hunts much larger due to the large number of transition lines throughout.   Doesn't hurt to have it surrounded by AG and a preserve where no hunting is permitted.  Sodfather, look for the right parcel and I suspect you will be happy you bought it.  I am.  Most items bought for recreational purposes aren't investments, but the pleasure is worth the cost to us.  And while not an investment, property will still hold value (or increase) better than that car or boat you bought to use for fun.  

This is true. I'm honestly still open to a nice piece of land. We all spend money on stuff we don't need, so if you really think you want land, it's a better way to blow money than on a car, like you said.

[BizCT]

7 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Interesting comments.  A corvette isn't a good investment either but I owned one because it was fun to drive.  And it depreciated at a significantly greater rate than my hunting parcel (and cost more).  I bought 40 acres so that I know that I have a place to hunt no matter what (within 35 min of my home) and the cost was worth the piece of mind to me.  My parcel is 50% wetlands, which made it cheap to buy and cheap taxes.  Bonus is that it holds some great deer and hunts much larger due to the large number of transition lines throughout.   Doesn't hurt to have it surrounded by AG and a preserve where no hunting is permitted.  Sodfather, look for the right parcel and I suspect you will be happy you bought it.  I am.  Most items bought for recreational purposes aren't investments, but the pleasure is worth the cost to us.  And while not an investment, property will still hold value (or increase) better than that car or boat you bought to use for fun.  

What year Vette? I bought a '92 ZR1 w/ 30K miles in 2002 for $12K when I graduated high school. I kept it mint condition and sold it for $18K 6 years later in 2008 with 39K miles on it to a guy from Tennessee who flew in and drove it home. He paid cash and told me he was stocking up on Vette's as an investment.

Regarding land, you are right about wetlands/non buildable. My parents got 30 acres and pay less than $2K/year in taxes because of this. Otherwise taxes would be exponentially more. Also, some lands hunt bigger than others. This 30 acres is 5-10 miles from home, but hunts like 80 acres because it borders 50 acreas of land lock property that is 100% legal to hunt and the only other neighbors who border it don't hunt. so its like 80 acres for the price of much much less.

[moog5050]

I had a 2008 wide body convertible that I wasted too much money making go faster.  lol  It was nice.  Now that the Z06's have a convertible, I see one in my future at some point.  No rush though.

And you know its a rarity to make money on any car other than collectibles.  I didn't buy it to collect, but to drive way faster than I should.

My total taxes for the 40 acres is $900/yr. I think.

Edited August 30, 2017 by moog5050

[land 1]

Well i bought mine last year 90acres know somepeople will question what i did but i bought it from a energy corp, they still own all mineral and gas rights on the property, I havea ten acre buffer zone that they cant touch that is where i placed my camp. The camp is a steel pole barn that i had built then did the finish work inside using mostley rough cut lumber.  The energy company when it comes to gas does hydro-fracking and when they bought it they were betting that NY would allow it but NY banned it as did the town. With that being said sure i may wake up one day and a well is going in but at 450.00 an acre i cant complain. As far as the building saved a ton of cash by not doing a log cabin or something along those lines, I have over 800sq ft of living space for less the $20,000. And to get the money i had only a couple yrs on my house left so got a new  morgage 3%intrest rate paid  off the first morgage and the land. to me it was worth it twice i have had propety the i could hunt for free for many years but lost it do to diffrent reason tried the lease thing but that didnt work when the landowner found out about land leases he contacted a company who put on a web site he know gets 1600.00 bucks for 55 acres wtf....Any way my land is less then an hr away I luove it there doing stuff at least every 2weeks

 

[growalot]

I didn't read all of these...that said...land is ONLY a bad investment if you pay the wrong price for it...If you don't have a clear long term plan for it...If you don't understand your nature and the nature of ownership....last but not least...buying in the wrong place... Took me 4 years of looking then an emergency to buy the first parcel...but because we had looked over the area several times in 4 yrs...I knew what we had....Took 2 yrs to find Our sons...

BTW   we have NO mortgage ...for a few years now...just taxes...our son backs up to a farm with his 5 acres on a dead end road and his neighbor has 50 acres and he watches over her...he can hunt his 5 with no issues plus his neighbors..he has no mortgage and is only 30...So You have to think and plan to the point your planning for future neighbors as well, when you look to buy any property.

[Adkhunter1590]

I guess it's all about what your looking for. To me I think land is the most valuable resource we have left. It's not going to get cheaper so I want to acquire as much of it as possible over my lifetime to leave to my kids. Because of a family fall out my dad sold our 111 acres out by oneonta. He bought that piece back in the late 80s for 20 grand. Had it logged 2 times since then which made him a little over 125k. Taxes were around 1700-1800 a year with a 980 sq ft cabin. If you can get the right land cheap enough with good timber, that alone can pay off a property in the long run. We could of logged that way harder than we did and made a bunch more to.
My plans are to buy the 40 bordering my house and then eventually another 60-70 off the other neighbor when he's done farming. Possibly even buy his entire farm as he doesn't think his kids are going to be able to afford it and have no ambition to continue farming it. Personally I could care less if it's a bad investment at any point in time. Having land is much more personally satisfying than a big bank account. I'd rather be land rich any day. And being able to leave my kids a boat load of land to hunt on and do whatever the heck they want is most important to me.

[Uncle Nicky]

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 8:18 AM, kpkot said:

I just read somewhere land generally increases in value 4-8% per year. That is a decent investment if you ask me. 

Yes, but the rub is you have to pay hefty real estate taxes on your investment each year, NY property taxes are some of the highest in the country. I loved having my own land/camp, but writing these checks in October & February is killing me.

I bought my hunting property in NY with a home equity loan, thankfully I was able to write off both the property taxes and the mortgage interest on my annual tax return (itemized). Most of my itemized write-offs are disappearing as I get older, so I sold the land this year (new owner takes posession early 2019).

Edited September 5, 2017 by Uncle Nicky

[slickrockpack]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 7:42 PM, sodfather said:

Questions for you hunting land owners. Did you pay for the entire property out of pocket or a loan. I'm reading online 20,30 and maybe 50 percent down. I've been looking for about 2 years now and have been saving but just wanted to know if anyone has input before I go on. Thanks for the replies 

these are all good questions for your wealth manager or in the least your accountant.

usaa is 5% down, on some land to get the 5% or less down I had to supply building plans.

options and available deals vary during the year I would run it by your accountant and if you don't hve one of those go get one with the clear statement that you are looking for financial advice and help making decisions for your future not someone to file taxes alone for you.

 best thing we ever did.

recommend Jim Reynolds company in Rutland, VT

[stubborn1VT]

Land is something they aren't making any more of.  Land prices aren't going down.  How is that a bad investment?  You buy land.  You use it for hunting, recreation, firewood etc.  It goes up in value over time.  It's worth more than you paid for it.  Am I missing something? 

[sodfather]

1 hour ago, slickrockpack said:

these are all good questions for your wealth manager or in the least your accountant.

usaa is 5% down, on some land to get the 5% or less down I had to supply building plans.

options and available deals vary during the year I would run it by your accountant and if you don't hve one of those go get one with the clear statement that you are looking for financial advice and help making decisions for your future not someone to file taxes alone for you.

 best thing we ever did.

recommend Jim Reynolds company in Rutland, VT

Thanks my wife and I have been talking about this for years. I do have a financial guy that handles whatever finances we have. Now with 2 daughters that comes with 2 in college eventually and hopefully but not soon 2 weddings. But if I wait for all that to pass I'll be in my 50's. Don't get me wrong that's not old but I'd like to enjoy it while they grow up.. Thanks for the advice 

[Buckmaster7600]

Land is something they aren't making any more of.  Land prices aren't going down.  How is that a bad investment?  You buy land.  You use it for hunting, recreation, firewood etc.  It goes up in value over time.  It's worth more than you paid for it.  Am I missing something? 

I have land that was a terrible investment, I bought it cheap had it logged and only have about 60k invested in 97 acres. The taxes are over 4K a year. It was one of the worst investments of my life. For that same 4K a year I could have a lease in another state that understands deer management.

I could buy a lot of fuel oil to heat my house for what I have invested in that piece of land to cut fire wood.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[catskillkid]

I would vote to purchase the land. In my case, I purchased a large parcel of land with a neglected house that needed a lot of work about 17 years ago. The prior owner held the mortgage at a very attractive interest rate and was paid off in a few years. The property is now worth over double what I paid for it and timber harvests now make it a money making operation. Myself & family truly enjoy it every weekend. The hunting is great with lots of deer & turkeys taken. It's also nice to know that another hunter will not be setting up next to me or a landowner terminating the lease. We have never second guessed our decision to buy. As I opened with, I would vote to purchase.

Edited September 6, 2017 by catskillkid