Relying on tracker/dogs is out of control!

[mowin]

2 hours ago, New York Hillbilly said:

 

After oh so  many deer seasons, I still get pumped when I have any deer around me, let alone a big buck. I suspect the sight of a large racked buck makes most hunters pulses get going, which also has had me wondering.  If the craze and/or trend, however you want to frame it, is about passing smaller bucks to grow big ones, and knowing the reaction such encounters bring, will the increase chances of running into bigger bucks lead to more incidents of poor choices, and high risk shots to be that person who got the big one, and subsequently continued increase in lost animals?  Rather than making such behaviors acceptable as just part of the hunting experience, I think we will need exert a little peer pressure once in a while, to make a stand that it is not. Again, bad stuff happens under the best of circumstances, and ultimately only the shooter in  most cases knows what really went down, but we should not normalize wounding animals. Although I would like to take a big buck as much as the next hunter, the goal I thought ultimately was to feed our stomachs, not our ego!

I get excited when a yearling walks into view, but I've been hunting long enough that I know how to control my emotions that I'm not going to take a marginal shot on a big deer or a small one. 

The guys I was talking about are the essence of slob hunters.  And they don't understand when someone asks why did you shoot. Their answer is " well you gotta shoot or someone else will get em. They don't care if it's a buck or a doe.  I see these guys at a few gathering each yr, and just shake my head in disgust.  They been like this for 20+ yrs, and there not going to change. 

[BigVal]

Lots and lots of bad shots happen. Unfortunately it's a fact and I sire wish people would be smarter and care more. I've said on here before it's startling the number just on here that we see. I know it happens but wow. Alot has to do with having compassion for the deer. I only take very very high percentage shots because the one deer I ever lost I quit for the season and didn't know if I'd pick up a bow again. Of course I did but as a changed Hunter. 

Taking a bad shot and banking on a tracking dog is just ridiculous, no excuse for it. Using a tracking dog on a deer that a mistake happens is completely different. 

[jjb4900]

I tracked for people for a few years...what made me give it up was the attitudes of some of the hunters.....but I honestly don't believe guys are winging shots at deer just to hit them anywhere with the thought that they can have a tracking dog find it.

[mowin]

19 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

I tracked for people for a few years...what made me give it up was the attitudes of some of the hunters.....but I honestly don't believe guys are winging shots at deer just to hit them anywhere with the thought that they can have a tracking dog find it.

I think it's more of " I might get lucky and hit it in a good spot" mentality. 

When they can't find it, then they call the dogs. 

[Core]

We got a call the other day saying, "I'm so and so and I've used you guys four or five times, and hit another one! Can you come find him?"......click.

Ridoculous.

I have lost deer but I have never taken a shot I didn't think I could reliably make. No hail Mary's.

Maybe these services need to charge a fee or something (or more if they don't already and I don't think they do).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Core]

When i have been engaged  talking about topics like maximum hunting distance and ethical range, I have actually had bow hunters tell me that their range is "x" (25,30,40,45 whatever). And wouldn't dream of pushing it beyond that.... (wait for it, wait for it)..."unless it was a really really big buck".
 
I about lose my mind at that point. 

ok my hunting buddy right now practices very little with his bow pre season and had a clean miss on a deer earlier this season (ie not a great shot). He told me he wouldn't shoot out to 40 unless it was a huge buck. It's been minimum of a year since he even shot a target out that far. The good news for the buck is it would be unlikely to even be wounded in this scenario.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jjb4900]

It's a people problem....the vast majority of hunters have very little knowledge on how to track a deer or how to react after a shot. I can almost guarantee more deer are lost from poor tracking and post shot follow up then to bad shots...might not be the best shot, but the shot would result in a recovered deer if the hunter reacted properly....too many guys give up way too easily, when I was tracking a lot of the hunters would usually be ready to  throw in the towel before I would

Edited November 15, 2017 by jjb4900

[outdoorstom]

I see where poor decisions were made on some of my calls, others are in another category....unseen branch, buck fever, etc.   When I meet with the poor decision makers, I definitely talk to them about what they could/should have done differently. We discuss things like shot angles, finding a rest if at all possible, not shooting beyond your effective range etc.  United Bloodtrackers and Deer Search trackers all believe educating hunters is a big part of our mission and take the time to do just that.

[Steve D]

26 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

might not be the best shot, but the shot would result in a recovered deer if the hunter reacted properly....too many guys give up way too easily, when I was tracking a lot of the hunters would usually be ready to  throw in the towel before I would

Amen...what most don't realize is the tracking ability is just as important as a good responsible shot. Most don't take the time. I have seen hunters go in the general direction they shot;  shake their head and walk away.

 I and a couple others on here have tracked the rest of the day and gone back the next day and more. If a deer is shot it is the hunters obligation to follow up on that shot to the best of their ability and beyond or call in help.

Tracking ability only comes with experience and unfortunately there are not enough around willing to pass on their knowledge and in today's world if there isn't an app for it forget it.

[Pygmy]

Bulls**t,,, I  have been hunting deer since the early 1960s, and although I choose to no longer bowhunt I did it for many years...

It is the same as it has always been.....Many hunters take marginal shots and with bowhunting tackle there are lots of little things that can crop up even with a GOOD shot that can cause a bad hit, or make it difficult to recover a deer even after a good hit..

The idea that the availability of tracking dogs encourages hunters to take marginal shots is ludicrous...A bad hit is a bad hit no matter  what, and whether the tracker is human or canine doesn't make much difference in the end result..

There has always been a significant loss/wound rate associated with bowhunting...The only thing that might make it seem worse today than it was 20 years ago is the fact that today it is related all over the internet...

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pygmy

[New York Hillbilly]

I think the volunteer work you and others like you do is noble and selfless, and speaks to your good character. It also shows a level of patience most, including me, fail to possess, at least when it comes to this subject. While life teaches us something new everyday, and none of us are above making mistakes and learning from them, I think the basics I would venture to guess are still taught in  hunter safety classes, should be pretty hardwired long before one pulls the trigger or release. My extended fear is that poor decision making and reckless behaviors are not likely limited to just one activity. In other words; I'm certain many of the same people who make such poor choices will be out and about the woodlots next week, this time armed with firearms. A slippery slope, and not a comforting thought! 

[Pygmy]

5 minutes ago, New York Hillbilly said:

I think the volunteer work you and others like you do is noble and selfless, and speaks to your good character. It also shows a level of patience most, including me, fail to possess, at least when it comes to this subject. While life teaches us something new everyday, and none of us are above making mistakes and learning from them, I think the basics I would venture to guess are still taught in  hunter safety classes, should be pretty hardwired long before one pulls the trigger or release. My extended fear is that poor decision making and reckless behaviors are not likely limited to just one activity. In other words; I'm certain many of the same people who make such poor choices will be out and about the woodlots next week, this time armed with firearms. A slippery slope, and not a comforting thought! 

You speak of this poor decision making  and reckless behavior as being something new..

Consider the reduction of the rate of hunting accidents over the last 50 years or so...Admitedly it is the result of improved hunter education,  but I hardly think that today's hunters are LESS responsible than those of 50 years ago...I personally believe that today's hunters are more responsible and ethical than they were 50 years ago, and I was hunting then...

[New York Hillbilly]

4 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

but I hardly think that today's hunters are LESS responsible than those of 50 years ago...I personally believe that today's hunters are more responsible and ethical than they were 50 years ago, and I was hunting then...

You have me beat by 4 or 5 years of deer season it seems, and you are entitled to your opinion. We will simply disagree, as it has not been what I have experienced or witnessed. 

[Pygmy]

2 minutes ago, New York Hillbilly said:

You have me beat by 4 or 5 years of deer season it seems, and you are entitled to your opinion. We will simply disagree, as it has not been what I have experienced or witnessed. 

Perhaps my memory is just better than yours.....<<grin>>...

[New York Hillbilly]

2 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

Perhaps my memory is just better than yours.....<<grin>>..

hahaha......yup......as long as you keep taking your Aricept it probably will remain that way!      :  0

[New York Hillbilly]

3 minutes ago, New York Hillbilly said:

6 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

Perhaps my memory is just better than yours.....<<grin>>..

hahaha......yup......as long as you keep taking your Aricept it probably will remain that way!      :  0

or they put me on it....then I'll catch up....lol!

[Pygmy]

3 minutes ago, New York Hillbilly said:

hahaha......yup......as long as you keep taking your Aricept it probably will remain that way!      :  0

Whatever  Aricept is.....

[New York Hillbilly]

lol......memory medication...... for old guys like us!    Thanks for the laugh by the way, you got me laughing hard enough to hack up a lung!  I may clear this illness in time for the opener after all. :  )

[Pygmy]

2 minutes ago, New York Hillbilly said:

lol......memory medication...... for old guys like us!    Thanks for the laugh by the way, you got me laughing hard enough to hack up a lung!  I may clear this illness in time for the opener after all. :  )

I hope you do...Good luck  !

[New York Hillbilly]

Thanks Pygmy, you too! Stay safe...I'll try to do the same!

 

[nyslowhand]

Agree with grampy's philosophy! Maybe "searchers" should keep a database with a sliding scale of the cost to use a deer search trainer & dog!?! First time-a donation, 2nd call - a higher fee, maybe $200 and each subsequent call from same hunter or address might be doubled in $$ or service refused. Would this stop a lot of the questionable shots? Probably not, just many more unretrieved deer. Unfortunately some hunters view the deer search services as a sort of permanent get out of jail free card.

[outdoorstom]

6 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

Agree with grampy's philosophy! Maybe "searchers" should keep a database with a sliding scale of the cost to use a deer search trainer & dog!?! First time-a donation, 2nd call - a higher fee, maybe $200 and each subsequent call from same hunter or address might be doubled in $$ or service refused. Would this stop a lot of the questionable shots? Probably not, just many more unretrieved deer. Unfortunately some hunters view the deer search services as a sort of permanent get out of jail free card.

We are not allowed to charge unless we are a licensed NYS guide.  Personally I haven't bothered to get my guide license because I know charging would drastically cut the number of calls I get. My area is depressed economically and lots of people wouldn't spend the money.

[steve863]

10 hours ago, Pygmy said:

You speak of this poor decision making  and reckless behavior as being something new..

Consider the reduction of the rate of hunting accidents over the last 50 years or so...Admitedly it is the result of improved hunter education,  but I hardly think that today's hunters are LESS responsible than those of 50 years ago...I personally believe that today's hunters are more responsible and ethical than they were 50 years ago, and I was hunting then...

 

Absolutely agree.  I don't go back as far as Pygmy, but I do go back a ways and I sure don't remember hunters back then needing to go to therapy like some seem to need today if they wounded a deer.   No one liked losing one, but if it happened it happened.  You moved on.  Today hunters talk about waiting for deer with big enough antlers, not shooting young ones, waiting for the deer to give a perfect angle before the shot, etc., etc.  Back then if you saw ANY deer that you had a tag for you shot at it.  Not much thought or debate about it as you have today.  So maybe someone could tell me how exactly were the ethics better back then??

[Jeremy K]

Is it because there are more people hunting archery? Is it it because we can share more info via the web? Is it people taking bad shots in the name of bragging rights to shoot a big buck? Is it because people don't know how to track anymore? It could be a little of all of these which is why it seems like such a huge problem these days ,I don't know answer for sure but those 4 examples have to be considered.

[New York Hillbilly]

48 minutes ago, steve863 said:

I sure don't remember hunters back then needing to go to therapy like some seem to need today if they wounded a deer. 

Nor do I, but you nobody wanted the reputation of being the person repeatedly wounding deer, or hunting with those with the attitude

 

50 minutes ago, steve863 said:

but if it happened it happened.  You moved on.

People with that philosophy were not welcomed in any deer camp, or game club I ever knew of or was associated with, and in fact I was an officer for many years of our local F&G club, as well as at the county level, 

50 minutes ago, steve863 said:

Today hunters talk about waiting for deer with big enough antlers, not shooting young ones, waiting for the deer to give a perfect angle before the shot, etc., etc.

As they say, talk is cheap, and a picture is worth a thousand words. The seeming endless pictures of deer shot in hind quarters, guts, head, neck and everyplace other than where you are taught to shoot one from day one, tells an entirely different story.