200 Pound Draw Limit

[Rack Attack]

39 minutes ago, G-Man said:

It was patented in 2013.. crossbow was passed in 2013 finalized and  effective 2014 season..  so obviously the bow was not available in any quantity so it was not.looked at for specs.. I don't think months is Much longer unless you are talking about Leonardo divinci drawing of a reverse draw draw crossbow.

 

Actually Scorpyd was founded in 2010.  They where available for sale in NY when the first crossbow season was allowed.

[G-Man]

His patten was jan 18 2013..for reverse limb..previous bows were conventional.. directly.from his site..

[Rack Attack]

The fact of the matter is that the draw weight and limb width rules are both BS. I have a real hard time believing that the draw weight and width rules were established by a group of lawmakers (that know nothing about hunting) to try to equal out to a 70# draw weight conventional compound.  Why specific to a 70# bow? What draw length? What brace height? What arrow weight? How many archers in NY do you think shoot a shoot a 70#, 30" draw, 6" brace height bow with a 400 grain arrow to get this max KE number?  What about guys that shoot bows with heavier limbs than 70#, or have longer than 30" draw length?  Should they also be limited because they have an advantage?  Should we be limiting compound bows to some long bow, or recurve KE equivalent? Where does the BS end?  How are the DEC officers policing this?  Do they bring draw weight scales with them in the woods?  Do they check and see if someone shimmed the limb pockets on their crossbow to get more speed out of it using the same draw weight limbs?  The fact is that most of the officers wouldn't know what the draw weight even is, the only thing they have to go by is advertisements. How many people have actually checked to see what the real draw weight of their crossbow is compared to the advertised?  What if you buy a crossbow with a higher advertised draw weight and back it down like MANY conventional archers do, is this illegal? How is it verified?  Again, our state is creating laws (like the shooting hours) that they can't enforce properly. 

[G-Man]

25 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

The fact of the matter is that the draw weight and limb width rules are both BS. I have a real hard time believing that the draw weight and width rules were established by a group of lawmakers (that know nothing about hunting) to try to equal out to a 70# draw weight conventional compound.  Why specific to a 70# bow? What draw length? What brace height? What arrow weight? How many archers in NY do you think shoot a shoot a 70#, 30" draw, 6" brace height bow with a 400 grain arrow to get this max KE number?  What about guys that shoot bows with heavier limbs than 70#, or have longer than 30" draw length?  Should they also be limited because they have an advantage?  Should we be limiting compound bows to some long bow, or recurve KE equivalent? Where does the BS end?  How are the DEC officers policing this?  Do they bring draw weight scales with them in the woods?  Do they check and see if someone shimmed the limb pockets on their crossbow to get more speed out of it using the same draw weight limbs?  The fact is that most of the officers wouldn't know what the draw weight even is, the only thing they have to go by is advertisements. How many people have actually checked to see what the real draw weight of their crossbow is compared to the advertised?  What if you buy a crossbow with a higher advertised draw weight and back it down like MANY conventional archers do, is this illegal? How is it verified?  Again, our state is creating laws (like the shooting hours) that they can't enforce properly. 

Ever hear of new York bowhunters?  And yes compounds were restricted for many years..no fiber optic pins pr lighted or releases.hell just to get compounds legal . as for enforcement the dec is an enviromentsl orgizination ( pollution is primary concern).. game mansgement is secondary. You can do what you want .. don't bitch if your caught.. thing is there are hundreds of crossbows. Again read above post stop looking. At Dec for regs they are done by politicians ( paid off by lobbiest) we need a constitutional amendment for right to hunt and fish to be governed  by game department and let them make the regs...

[G-Man]

For an example the model 12 shotguns illegal to hunt with in N.Y.  with out being plugged.. before rifles were allowed I saw many of these guns in the a woods. 99% were not plugged nor did the users even know they were ilegal..99% were never stopped and checked but the ones that were found out quicknwhat w as the law.. crossbows are the same.. just follow the damn law! Want it changed change the law write your reps. Or better yet push for amendment ant put game in control of game managers..

[Hock3y24]

yeah its bs, there only like one excaliber crossbow that has a 200 lb dw or less and i want one of those. 

[Doc]

Yes, these are the kinds of mindless wrestling matches you get involved with when you try to cram something into a season that was never intended to be there. It is a bow season, and everybody is trying to turn themselves inside out trying to achieve operational parity between the two entirely different weapons. It will never make sense. You cannot regulate parity between two completely different weapons that don't even look or fire the same and that operate on two completely different theories of operation. It's a case where you need to simply accept the fact that they are not the same, will never be the same, and open the floodgates to simply allow technology to shoehorn in whatever the manufacturers want to market. That is the natural path that compounds forced on bow seasons, and the incorporation of the crossbow into bow season is an even greater stretch. I am not as surprised as most seem to be that there are goofy and arbitrary regulations as the regulators try to justify the inclusion. What did you all expect?

Edited January 4, 2018 by Doc

[erussell]

I killed my first 5 deer with a 35lbs recurve before i got to busy and lazy to shoot everyday to keep up the muscle memory and eye coordination.  I think 200 lbs should be enough to kill a deer at arrow ranges. Lol

 

[Hunter007]

48 minutes ago, erussell said:

I killed my first 5 deer with a 35lbs recurve before i got to busy and lazy to shoot everyday to keep up the muscle memory and eye coordination.  I think 200 lbs should be enough to kill a deer at arrow ranges. Lol

 

Not the point of  can it kill  the point is some  crossbow bow companys don't offer the bow you want in 200ib  because to get the same speed you do from there models (recurves ) you need more draw weight to = the same speed level as a compound  crossbow at 200ib 

The cams gives  you a mechanical advantage at the same 200ib 

That a recurve crossbow can only get with more poundage. 

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

Yes, these are the kinds of mindless wrestling matches you get involved with when you try to cram something into a season that was never intended to be there. It is a bow season, and everybody is trying to turn themselves inside out trying to achieve operational parity between the two entirely different weapons. It will never make sense. You cannot regulate parity between two completely different weapons that don't even look or fire the same and that operate on two completely different theories of operation. It's a case where you need to simply accept the fact that they are not the same, will never be the same, and open the floodgates to simply allow technology to shoehorn in whatever the manufacturers want to market. That is the natural path that compounds forced on bow seasons, and the incorporation of the crossbow into bow season is an even greater stretch. I am not as surprised as most seem to be that there are goofy and arbitrary regulations as the regulators try to justify the inclusion. What did you all expect?

No, this is what you get when a small group of elitists like NYB are allowed to influence the legislators that push through laws that deal with things that they have no knowledge about. If NY hunting laws were passed purely by a real wildlife management agency or committee, I doubt we would see as much stupid, arbitrary nonsense go through.

Things change and evolve over time, if you cant or wont adapt, you get left behind. Its always been that way and it will always be that way.

[G-Man]

9 hours ago, Hock3y24 said:

yeah its bs, there only like one excaliber crossbow that has a 200 lb dw or less and i want one of those. 

Again the question was why the reasons were given .. if you want it changed write your reps not the Dec.  The law needs to be changed Dec does t make laws just asked to enforce them

[Hunter007]

9 minutes ago, G-Man said:

Again the question was why the reasons were given .. if you want it changed write your reps not the Dec.  The law needs to be changed Dec does t make laws just asked to enforce them

Really to be fair the limit should be by speed  or foot pounds of energy . If they don't want bow or crossbow technology to get to powerful or = to each other .

And they should probably just add everything other then gun in one season that can kill a deer ethically .

Instead  of all these limits on single shot weapons with limited range cabilitys. 

 

 

[Five Seasons]

my compound is 70lbs and kills deer just fine. 

[Hunter007]

6 minutes ago, Belo said:

my compound is 70lbs and kills deer just fine. 

Yep and what ever = the same power out put for crossbow is , should be the same limit ,(if your going to have a limit ) that is why they should do  it by speed or foot pounds of energy . Not this crazy  limb width and 200ib limit bs 

 

[Rack Attack]

45 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

Yep and what ever = the same power out put for crossbow is , should be the same limit ,(if your going to have a limit ) that is why they should do  it by speed or foot pounds of energy . Not this crazy  limb width and 200ib limit bs 

 

That's right, the way the law is written virtually eliminates Excalibur crossbows from being used in NY.  Not that Excalibur is worried about it, but they are very much limiting their market share in NY with laws.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

11 hours ago, G-Man said:

For an example the model 12 shotguns illegal to hunt with in N.Y.  with out being plugged.. before rifles were allowed I saw many of these guns in the a woods. 99% were not plugged nor did the users even know they were ilegal..99% were never stopped and checked but the ones that were found out quicknwhat w as the law.. crossbows are the same.. just follow the damn law! Want it changed change the law write your reps. Or better yet push for amendment ant put game in control of game managers..

why would the model 12  have been illegal?

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

Really to be fair the limit should be by speed  or foot pounds of energy . If they don't want bow or crossbow technology to get to powerful or = to each other .

And they should probably just add everything other then gun in one season that can kill a deer ethically .

Instead  of all these limits on single shot weapons with limited range cabilitys. 

 

 

The question is why do you need to see these limits raised? Many crossbows are available.that fit them. 

I'd like a Ferrari  but the Subaru will do ...speed limit is 65 anyway..

[G-Man]

21 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

why would the model 12  have been illegal?

6 plus one.. shotguns are 5 plus one.. was law till mid 90s

[G-Man]

54 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

That's right, the way the law is written virtually eliminates Excalibur crossbows from being used in NY.  Not that Excalibur is worried about it, but they are very much limiting their market share in NY with laws.

Isn't that up to the company? If you want to sell cars i they have to be emmision compliant.. and there are several Excalibur  bows that meet requirement 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 minutes ago, G-Man said:

6 plus one.. shotguns are 5 plus one.. was law till mid 90s

wow. gonna have to dig  out my old game books. I thought that always was for semi's. There were more shotguns than the model 12 that were higher capacity too. How did they handle the Winchester 94?

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

Really to be fair the limit should be by speed  or foot pounds of energy . If they don't want bow or crossbow technology to get to powerful or = to each other .

And they should probably just add everything other then gun in one season that can kill a deer ethically .

Instead  of all these limits on single shot weapons with limited range cabilitys. 

 

 

The mathematical formula comes up with an average of 200lbs and 17 in limb.. I'm not the mathtician who figured it out. Tech has changed rapidly  law.is set just get it changed

[G-Man]

1 minute ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

wow. gonna have to dig  out my old game books. I thought that always was for semi's. There were more shotguns than the model 12 that were higher capacity too. How did they handle the Winchester 94?

Just never enforced.. I hunted with a 12 that carried 8..for years till I read old regs. Ignorance is not an excuse I try my best to be compliant and read new regs every year..(Like electronic calls for deer see other thread). same as there are shows out there being used that don't comply.. on private land chances of being stopped and checked are slim. To none.. we really.do need an amendment and a true game department 

[Hunter007]

25 minutes ago, G-Man said:

The question is why do you need to see these limits raised? Many crossbows are available.that fit them. 

I'd like a Ferrari  but the Subaru will do ...speed limit is 65 anyway..

Because  there not limiting power or speed there limited what type of crossbow you can buy with that dumb 200 ib law .

Compounds  crossbows  get around  it  by  using better and better cams and mechanical advantage. 

The law is only limiting recurve crossbows like Excalibur models , mean while they can make a compound crossbow  shoot way faster past any recurve even if the recurve is over 200 ib  .  The law does not do what it was intended to do.

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Storm914

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

Because  there not limiting power or speed there limited what type of crossbow you can buy with that dumb 200 ib law .

Compounds  crossbows  get around  it  by  using better and better cams and mechanical advantage. 

The law is only limiting recurve crossbows like Excalibur models , mean while they can make a compound crossbow  shoot way faster past any recurve even if the recurve is over 200 ib  .  The law does not do what it was intended to do.

 

unfortunately it is no different than 100's or 1,000's of other NYS's arbitrary laws. Just think Safe act 

[dbHunterNY]

19 hours ago, G-Man said:

Limb with has to do with power stroke = ke

the restriction is that it has to be a at least a certain width. it can be wider.  shorter axle to axle would be less power stroke.  so with that in mind the at least 17" width restriction doesn't make sense.  I think they were concerned with poaching? idk but in that case a poacher is better served with a 22LR rifle and subsonic ammo. still doesn't make sense.  I agree with your thoughts on weight limitations. that said 200lb eliminates a lot of nice recurve crossbows that would still be equivalent to your faster compounds out.