Sportsmen Strongly Support Yearling Buck Protection in NYSDEC Deer Plan

[steve863]

John, it's the same old story and we just keep going round and round. AR'S and food plots are for one reason only and lets just admit it right up front. AR's are for the bigger bucks with bigger antlers not a healthier deer herd.

Dave

This is a monumental moment that I am in full agreement with Dave here.   The supporters of AR's however will NEVER admit it.  When we corner them on this they will usually tell us "but who wouldn't prefer to shoot bigger bucks?", which brings us back to what we were telling them in the first place that AR's are there primarily for bigger antlers.  AR's, QDM's, all this was concocted by biologists who were paid by trophy hunters to come up with some ideas on how they could get bucks to grow bigger antlers, period.  You guys can beat around the bush all you want, but to many of us it's as clear as black and white.  At least if you guys told us that you like to hunt trophies and thus think that AR's should be implemented, we would give you the benefit of the doubt and respect your opinions.  Sugar coating things with this other mumbo jumbo about herd health makes you guys sound like typical politicians trying to sucker the masses into believing things that aren't true.

[burmjohn]

This is a monumental moment that I am in full agreement with Dave here.   The supporters of AR's however will NEVER admit it.  When we corner them on this they will usually tell us "but who wouldn't prefer to shoot bigger bucks?", which brings us back to what we were telling them in the first place that AR's are there primarily for bigger antlers.  AR's, QDM's, all this was concocted by biologists who were paid by trophy hunters to come up with some ideas on how they could get bucks to grow bigger antlers, period.  You guys can beat around the bush all you want, but to many of us it's as clear as black and white.  At least if you guys told us that you like to hunt trophies and thus think that AR's should be implemented, we would give you the benefit of the doubt and respect your opinions.  Sugar coating things with this other mumbo jumbo about herd health makes you guys sound like typical politicians trying to sucker the masses into believing things that aren't true.

And your wrong again, congrats.  Keep spreading your AR misperceptions , it only shows your misunderstanding and ignorance on deer management.

[Dave]

John, it's the same old story and we just keep going round and round. AR'S and food plots are for one reason only and lets just admit it right up front. AR's are for the bigger bucks with bigger antlers not a healthier deer herd.

Dave

This is a monumental moment that I am in full agreement with Dave here.   The supporters of AR's however will NEVER admit it.  When we corner them on this they will usually tell us "but who wouldn't prefer to shoot bigger bucks?", which brings us back to what we were telling them in the first place that AR's are there primarily for bigger antlers.  AR's, QDM's, all this was concocted by biologists who were paid by trophy hunters to come up with some ideas on how they could get bucks to grow bigger antlers, period.  You guys can beat around the bush all you want, but to many of us it's as clear as black and white.  At least if you guys told us that you like to hunt trophies and thus think that AR's should be implemented, we would give you the benefit of the doubt and respect your opinions.  Sugar coating things with this other mumbo jumbo about herd health makes you guys sound like typical politicians trying to sucker the masses into believing things that aren't true.

Like you Steve I call them as I see them, that one was a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's all about the antlers period.

Dave

[Geno C]

And yet it is pretty much impossible to ever find anyone who has been surveyed even though these kinds of surveys have supposedly been going on for decades (Cornell and all ... lol).

I really wonder what kind of credibility these surveys really have when you consider the tiny percent of population surveyed and the obvious failure of them to reach anyone that we know. But I guess, if policy is going to be made and laws passed, there has to be some attempt at legitimizing them. And holding up a survey done by a leading university probably is what keeps support for the things that the DEC wants to push. Who can question the findings of a university .... eh?

thats basically what i was getting at

[Geno C]

someone had it right, give the "hunter" the surveys to fill out upon receiving your hunting licence. i think that is the way to do it

[Localqdm]

We don't NEED older bucks. 1.5's can get the job done, sure; but older does prefer older bucks to breed them.  They are SURVIVING just fine w/out older bucks, sure;  But the 3 fish in my 10 gal aquarium are surviving just fine too.  However their QUALITY of life might be improved in some tropical lake somewhere with a variety of food, rainy seasons, river beds suitable for breeding, natural water filtration and turnover, etc. 

I'm not complaining, I'm very thankful for the opportunities I have and the Creation the Lord has blessed me to enjoy.  I just personally enjoy seeing bucks reach their potential, whether I shoot them or not,  like I enjoy fishing for fish bigger than the 2" fish in my aquarium.  Just seems like there just should be some older deer in a QUALITY herd and a full hunting experience.

Again, I'm not really advocating AR, but 'brown its down' just doesn't make sense to me.

[steve863]

Like you Steve I call them as I see them, that one was a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's all about the antlers period.

Dave

I've got nothing against the guys who want to hunt for the trophies.  They can hunt for them with the way the regulations are currently.  No one is stopping them and that is there free choice.  AR's however takes away the choice from the guy who is happy with the spike or forkhorn, especially in the areas where doe permits are not easy to get.  To me this is unfair and it gives preferential treatment to one group over another.  If hunters hunt for many different reasons, then ALL the reasons need to be considered and none of the reasons should be given priority over the other.  Keep AR's out of the picture and everyone will be able to hunt anyway they want.

[steve863]

We don't NEED older bucks. 1.5's can get the job done, sure; but older does prefer older bucks to breed them.  They are SURVIVING just fine w/out older bucks, sure;  But the 3 fish in my 10 gal aquarium are surviving just fine too.  However their QUALITY of life might be improved in some tropical lake somewhere with a variety of food, rainy seasons, river beds suitable for breeding, natural water filtration and turnover, etc. 

I'm not complaining, I'm very thankful for the opportunities I have and the Creation the Lord has blessed me to enjoy.  I just personally enjoy seeing bucks reach their potential, whether I shoot them or not,  like I enjoy fishing for fish bigger than the 2" fish in my aquarium.  Just seems like there just should be some older deer in a QUALITY herd and a full hunting experience.

Again, I'm not really advocating AR, but 'brown its down' just doesn't make sense to me.

Do you really think bucks will reach their full potential with AR's?  All AR's do is allow them to live one more year, and then an awful few hunters will be passing them up once they have 3 points on a side.  You might get to see full potential in a vast private expanse of land or an enclosure, but you will never see it in a state like NY where most of the land has different ownership every couple hundred acres or less.  You also need to have a hunting populace that hunts extensively and has unlimited time to hunt to be passing up the smaller bucks for the biggest ones.  Maybe you have an unlimited amount of time to hunt, but that is not the case for most hunters today and I doubt that it ever will be in the future. 

[TheHunter]

Do you really think bucks will reach their full potential with AR's?  All AR's do is allow them to live one more year, and then an awful few hunters will be passing them up once they have 3 points on a side. 

Yes, allowing those little guys to pass will allow them to grow over.  Yes some will be harvested the next year and some will go on to be 3+.  One year of passing on a 1.5 if AR is implemented in your area and you can go shoot those deer that are now 2.5's.    I think the real issue is your brown its down mentality and failure to read, learn and understand deer biology.

[growalot]

Just because yearling bucks are capable in breeding doesnt mean they  should be the sole ones doing it.  If you read about deer biology, in a  balanced herd the 1.5's only knock up about 1/3 of the does.

See...now that statement makes no sense to me...

ppl say we don't have a balanced herd....way too many 11/2 year old bucks are being shot...

If that is true..... than it would figure that more older bucks that have laid low during the hunting season due to being wise...... would be in a higher percentage of herd breeding...does it not?...I'm mean dead deer don't breed right?....so the deer that AR propontants say need to be doing the breeding ... actually already are.... occording to the all the young bucks are being shot fear....

[steve863]

  I think the real issue is your brown its down mentality and failure to read, learn and understand deer biology.

No, the real issue is your failure to understand why this biology you keep touting was ever developed in the first place.  If it weren't for the greater benefits that the hunter might potentially get from it, it would have NEVER even been devised.  So maybe you ought to "read, learn and understand" with a more skeptical mind.

[growalot]

also..maybe it's just our area....but I'm not seeing a 3 points one  side being a deterrent to shooting 1 1/2 yr.olds...I've seen many many 5....6 and even small 8's that were 1 1/2 yr olds...That is just genetics and not all areas in this state have the same genetics....not all areas have the same mineral composition in the soil...to improve antler growth...who's kidding  who here on it being for herd health....maybe in a vacuum....but the NY deer herd does not exist in a vacuum

[Doc]

older does prefer older bucks to breed them. 

This according to a recently completed survey of 2500 does conducted by a research team from Cornell University. 62% of the respondants claimed that age does matter.

[wztirem]

Sounds like these older does are in reality cougars.

[TheHunter]

  I think the real issue is your brown its down mentality and failure to read, learn and understand deer biology.

No, the real issue is your failure to understand why this biology you keep touting was ever developed in the first place.  If it weren't for the greater benefits that the hunter might potentially get from it, it would have NEVER even been devised.  So maybe you ought to "read, learn and understand" with a more skeptical mind.

Keep trying to cover up that brown it down old school ignorant mentality.

[Dave]

  I think the real issue is your brown its down mentality and failure to read, learn and understand deer biology.

No, the real issue is your failure to understand why this biology you keep touting was ever developed in the first place.  If it weren't for the greater benefits that the hunter might potentially get from it, it would have NEVER even been devised.  So maybe you ought to "read, learn and understand" with a more skeptical mind.

Keep trying to cover up that brown it down old school ignorant mentality.

How many hunters do you think have that mentality, brown its down? I have been hunting since 1968 and none of the hunters I know subscribe to that mentality. Are you talking about the people you hunt with? Don't paint every hunter with such a wide brush.

Dave

[TheHunter]

How many hunters do you think have that mentality, brown its down? I have been hunting since 1968 and none of the hunters I know subscribe to that mentality. Are you talking about the people you hunt with? Don't paint every hunter with such a wide brush.

Dave

I'm not, pay attention there skipper and troll some other thread.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

How many hunters do you think have that mentality, brown its down? I have been hunting since 1968 and none of the hunters I know subscribe to that mentality. Are you talking about the people you hunt with? Don't paint every hunter with such a wide brush.

Dave

I'm not, pay attention there skipper and troll some other thread.

Nice to see some one kicked over a rock to let you crawl out...or did they finally get the ankle bracelet attached for you so you could go home. Back again spewing the same ole' story. You are right....everyone else is wrong......no one hunts the way superman "thehunter" does.....we get it.

[wztirem]

What we truly need to settle this argument is some enlightening words from Mr.VJP.

[Dave]

How many hunters do you think have that mentality, brown its down? I have been hunting since 1968 and none of the hunters I know subscribe to that mentality. Are you talking about the people you hunt with? Don't paint every hunter with such a wide brush.

Dave

I'm not, pay attention there skipper and troll some other thread.

Nice to see some one kicked over a rock to let you crawl out...or did they finally get the ankle bracelet attached for you so you could go home. Back again spewing the same ole' story. You are right....everyone else is wrong......no one hunts the way superman "thehunter" does.....we get it.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Be more specific , What does superman "the hunter mean? What does ankle bracelets have to do with anything?

Dave

[Dave]

How many hunters do you think have that mentality, brown its down? I have been hunting since 1968 and none of the hunters I know subscribe to that mentality. Are you talking about the people you hunt with? Don't paint every hunter with such a wide brush.

Dave

I'm not, pay attention there skipper and troll some other thread.

Don't be a D---?

Dave

[jusputtn]

I find the AR arguement that bucks aren't reaching maturity to be untrue.  I've been hunting the same property for 30 years with a few friends.  Wé've seen some really nice ones but have only gotten 3 of them in that time.  Just talking about the nice ones, not mediocre bucks or does.  Once a buck gets past a 1 1/2 then tend to get real sneaky.

I find it hard to believe that the status of a heard, that has been growing for 20 years to be unbalanced/unhealthy.  I've read books on deer biology, QDM & TDM.  I understand how a balanced herd, buck to doe, is important.  QDM & TDM are purely personal choices to obtain bigger racks.

If horn size isn't a vanity issue, then why are there "trophy buck" breeding programs and canned hunts for them.  Shooting one of those is like bragging about climbing Mount Everest after getting a helicopter ride up to 29000 ft.  (yes, I'm aware that helicopters can't fly that high, just making a point with a liberal dose of sarcasim tossed in)  Why is the market value increasing for mounted trophies?

[G-Man]

Here is an 8 1/2 year old buck i was lucky enought to get this is without ar's... 8 1/2 in catt county one of the heaviest hunted counties nys has. old bucks are out there they hide!! right spot right time... my experiance tells me that those that want ar's are looking to stockplie big bucks for easy hunting.. truth is an area will only support maybe 1 big buck 140+ i on 160 acres and without adequate doe harvest will never reach their potental. Big dominant bucks they dont get along with each other,. the big bucks are out there... every spring big ones are found dead winter kill/old age. Hunter density and land use/ ownership have a much bigger effect than you realize. nys does not have large family farms like the mid west 50 acre avg. vs 400 acre avg. Forcing taxpayers to wait on a buck with more than 4 on a side is just nuts.. I know what my property can hold and am far ahead of the dec on knowing the local deer population. this should be a private decision..not state mandated.

[nyantler]

G-man.. you are right that big bucks are out there.. but not in the numbers that they should be... every other species of animal has a well balanced age representation amongst the males of the species... that is not true of the whitetail buck in NYS... I will agree that the motivation for most AR supporters is just to have larger bucks to hunt... the buck age structure aspect is really the more important reason for AR's... but not as highly promoted.. although it should be.

[SteveB]

Still looking for those actual before and after harvest numbers used to promote the per centages.