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New world record non typical

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10 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Im almost tempted to lock the thread, but I really enjoy watching people dig holes...

Come on....don't...this is just too good. 

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

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That Deer was not shot in that  part of the county and those deer that migrate that's a specific group they  would have different gentics to deer from other parts of the country that don't migrate.   DNA would be able to show that .
If it couldn't,  Doing a DNA test to find ones ancestry would not be worth the paper its printed on .
 
 

So now your saying that there is a diversified genetic group of Whitetails from areas that migrate?


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1 minute ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:


So now your saying that there is a diversified genetic group of Whitetails from areas that migrate?


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Animals  that migrate  in a set pattern and direction that is because of genetic factors Instinct they are born with it , a scientist could study there DNA find out what specific gene those deer have that makes them migrate 

Because most deer don't annually migraine  far  . If at all the gene will be specific to that group that others will not have .

It's like geese flying south for winter it's  genetic there is a specific gene marker  that makes them do that . 

Read up  about FSW 

There are two kinds ofbehavior: innate and learned. Innate behavior comes from an animal's heredity. Ananimal's instincts are examples of its innatebehavior. For example,migrating birds use innatebehavior to know when to begin their migration and the route that they should follow.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

FSW 

Why are deer in Florida smaller then deer in Minnesota?

Different gentics that you could test with DNA.  

https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/yes-eastern-coyotes-are-hybrids-coywolf-not-thing/

Just like  testing eastern coyotes  shows  different make up of genetics depending on what part of  the north east  the  coyote came from. 

 

Bergmann's Rule

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1 minute ago, dbHunterNY said:

Bergmann's Rule

Yes its evolution at work animals evolve to best deal with there environment 

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still i'm not so sure it helps your case much.  too broad.


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Yes its evolution at work animals evolve to best deal with there environment 

Lol. Yeah evolution. That's why there has only been a handful. Best part is that blows the shit out of your theory last night that an area of deer will all have the same genetic makeup. Lol. A buck from 300 miles away comes and boinks 5 does just totally changed the makeup of those animals from that area and then another buck boinks a female offspring of that buck and it just changed again. Like your Long Island theory.


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30 minutes ago, The Jerkman said:

The world is round NOT flat

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Those are fighting words!!!!!! 

:drinks:

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11 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:


Lol. Yeah evolution. That's why there has only been a handful. Best part is that blows the shit out of your theory last night that an area of deer will all have the same genetic makeup. Lol. A buck from 300 miles away comes and boinks 5 does just totally changed the makeup of those animals from that area and then another buck boinks a female offspring of that buck and it just changed again. Like your Long Island theory.


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Show my the study u are just talking s the only one I saw says a seasonal migration 150 miles and its specific to only that part of the county 

In fact just show me one study that says what I'm telling you can't be done 

Or else you are basically like a flat earther  

I already gave you 4 articles about this .

And your response Is just your full of s 

You are  full of s is not a scientific study FSW 

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26 minutes ago, Moho81 said:

Those are fighting words!!!!!! 

:drinks:

only for you central and WNY folks. out here around the Adirondacks it's kind of common knowledge.


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Genetics (deer or human) is far more complicated in reality than in Storm or FSW's arguments.  Which in itself works in FSWs favor.  Comparing this deer's DNA to a handful of deer from the area; or even to a database of deer from different regions, would still not prove wild vs. farmed.   You could maybe say it is more closely related to deer from one area or another, but not if it was farmed.  (This would be similar to human genealogy/ancestry test which suggest your ancestry based on a few markers in their database).  The only genetic test that would prove this deer is farmed would require a database for all farmed deer, to which this individual deer could be matched.  Ill assume if this exists FSW would've mentioned it by now.  

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29 minutes ago, johnplav said:

Genetics (deer or human) is far more complicated in reality than in Storm or FSW's arguments.  Which in itself works in FSWs favor.  Comparing this deer's DNA to a handful of deer from the area; or even to a database of deer from different regions, would still not prove wild vs. farmed.   You could maybe say it is more closely related to deer from one area or another, but not if it was farmed.  (This would be similar to human genealogy/ancestry test which suggest your ancestry based on a few markers in their database).  The only genetic test that would prove this deer is farmed would require a database for all farmed deer, to which this individual deer could be matched.  Ill assume if this exists FSW would've mentioned it by now.  

It is complex  it is  hard to explain  but still will give you a good idea of the background of that deer and the likelihood of that deer being wild from the area 

A DNA  test Is going to give you   a percentage  it is going to say sonething like this deer is 80% from zone A and  20% from zone B   . 

What FSW  is  saying about a deer going 100 miles and mating with deer in that area changing gentics  is partially correct but most deer will not go 100 miles and mate with  those deer most deer will be mating with deer that are in the area and stay pure  .

For example 

If a Chinese guy  has kids  with a  girl from the uk 100 years ago does that me all people in the uk are now  genetically Chinese ? 

And if you  DNA test them they will come out all Chinese, not having unique genetic markers from the UK?  

No it's not going to show that a small percentage will have DNA from for away most will have localized DNA 

DNA test will give you a percentage   of what that deer is and it will be more from that local area  then not .

If you test it and it shows  the opposite then you know something is wrong not going to be 100  Percent  but what are the chances that a deer that  big manage to travel so far and not get shot on the way  , and what are the chances the deer in the area are not closely related to it slim to none.

Unless someone trucked it in from a deer farm then shot it .

 

 

 

 

Edited by Storm914

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I haven't read all of this thread, but I am sure an investigation into the kill site was conducted and they may have even done testing on blood at the kill site.  It has been done to catch poachers and debunk world class deer before.  I recall it with a monster killed in NY.  Regardless, perhaps we can leave it to those that certify these things.  I am sure they take it seriously.

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So Im just going to throw a turd into the punchbowl, which is going to screw up the whole theory about deer genetics staying static in a given area. Even more so than how far bucks travel during the rut. Ill do it in one word too.

Dispersal.

Look it up.

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So there ya go. The vast majority of the time, you will not be able to track a buck down by his DNA because depending on the area, he traveled between 3-30 miles from his birthplace, and started spreading his genetic seed into a completely different herd. Its natures way of limiting in-breeding.

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14 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

So there ya go. The vast majority of the time, you will not be able to track a buck down by his DNA because depending on the area, he traveled between 3-30 miles from his birthplace, and started spreading his genetic seed into a completely different herd. Its natures way of limiting in-breeding.

That depends that study says some deer  go farther then others  in areas  so you would need a  bigger  DNA sample in certain areas  then others to  study then others 

Its complex but you could still get a idea if someone wanted to  and had the  resources to do it . 

That's just another tool a investigator could use to tell not going to be 100%  

 

Edited by Storm914

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1 minute ago, Storm914 said:

That depends that study says some deer  go farther then others  in areas  so you would need a  bigger  DNA sample in certain areas  then others to  study then others 

Its complex but you could still get a idea if someone wanted to  and had the the  resources to do it . 

 

No you cant, its just not feasible to take samples from as may deer as you would need to within a 30-40 mile radius. Theres not just dispersal to think about, but some bucks will travel long distances in the rut. I have trail cam pics of a buck that was very easily identifiable on the farm I hunt in Honeoye NY, and he was killed on a property in West Sparta, NY that very season. Those two areas are 15-20 miles apart.

Take dispersal and then factor in deer traveling during the rut, and all of the genetic mixing that happens and the chances of ever matching at least 70% of bucks to where they were born would be so tiny that you may as well call it impossible, or at least improbable.

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21 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

So there ya go. The vast majority of the time, you will not be able to track a buck down by his DNA because depending on the area, he traveled between 3-30 miles from his birthplace, and started spreading his genetic seed into a completely different herd. Its natures way of limiting in-breeding.

let's jut average that and say 15 miles. now look at the deer density across just our state on a county by county basis. take a 7.5 mile radius around all those data points that are bucks and see the over lap. Then look at this breeding area over the last 200 years. It's suck a melting pot there is no way to reach a determination. even if you could test the deer and site you would need a huge database to compare against to find anything out. 

Actually who give s a flying F. whether there is a new world record or not, whether there was cheating or not, my 2019 season will still be the same. lol

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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14 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

No you cant, its just not feasible to take samples from as may deer as you would need to within a 30-40 mile radius. Theres not just dispersal to think about, but some bucks will travel long distances in the rut. I have trail cam pics of a buck that was very easily identifiable on the farm I hunt in Honeoye NY, and he was killed on a property in West Sparta, NY that very season. Those two areas are 15-20 miles apart.

Take dispersal and then factor in deer traveling during the rut, and all of the genetic mixing that happens and the chances of ever matching at least 70% of bucks to where they were born would be so tiny that you may as well call it impossible, or at least improbable.

Ok let's say you are right or it's just to big a study to do 

You could  have a  DNA  data  base of  all the farm deer in the country  it would be pretty easy then . Even just of the really huge ones  on farms would give you a  good idea of if it is or isn't  . Because chance's are if its from a farm  it is  going to be the off spring of a farms prize buck the biggest on the farm .

Edited by Storm914

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