It begins again

[Robhuntandfish]

its to each its own..... but it just cant understand how people think a crossbow isnt easier to hunt with than a bow.  It almost seems like have they ever used one?  It has the same capabilities as a 50 yard gun.  I hunt from treestands mostly, but on the ground or from the stand you just look thru a scope and shoot.  Bow has to be drawn and more movement can be seen, have to hold it and there are more targeting issues with a bow by far.  Correct form, if shooting down bend the right way, right anchor point, no scope, etc.  even with practice those variables are still there.  I actually love the way the seasons are setup right now cause i like to hunt with everything bow, xbow, gun.  To say the crossbow is heavy - mine weighs the same as my -06.  both 7+lbs.  I can shoot my xbow quarter groups at 50.   My bow I limit to 45 and shoot 6" groups then and it would have to a perfect shot to even consider it.  Ive killed with the crossbow from the ground and from a stand and have held it on a deer - last year - for a few minutes to get the right shot.  I can have most anyone shooting bulls with my xbow in 3 shots or less - the compound takes a whole lot of practice. I would certainly like to see xbow open with a dr note though for those that cannot draw a bow.  - which in itself proves it is easier to use.   

Hell there is even an academy in Western NY for bow practice, havent seen it open to crossbow yet.  Lol  

Edited May 17, 2019 by Robhuntandfish

[Five Seasons]

10 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

... Yes, historically a Xbow projectile was called a bolt, but a lot of name brand Xbow mfgers refer to them now-a-days as arrows. In your defense Eddie I do see Easton/Beaman call them bolts, while Gold-Tip does NOT call them either a bolt or an arrow. Confusing!?! Over past ~5yrs bolts &/or arrows for Xbows has sort of become an interchangeable term. Same mfgering process, material, diameter, weight choices for vertical bow & Xbow use, simply shorter with different nocks for Xbows. Not something I'm going to get obsessed over, what to call my Xbow projectile. Tomato.. Tomato', Puhkahn....Peecan. You call it a bolt, I know what you're talking about if we're discussing Xbows!!!!!

you'd think for simple marketing and customer satisfaction they'd keep the delineation. I'd hate to make a hasty purchase of arrows for my compound only to get a package of crossbow bolts in the mail. Until they're identical in nature, they should be labeled and marketed separably. 

[bugsNbows]

20 hours ago, fasteddie said:

Did some checking . They are BOLTS . Victory makes arrows for bows and Bolts for crossbows .

https://www.victoryarchery.com/CROSSBOW/

I also re-checked their website. Apparently, they have two offerings for crossbow projectiles. One is the Victory XBolt and one is the Voodoo. I think they are using the Bolt term as a marketing name. Further down the page they have charts  / features under a heading of Victory Xbolt Crossbow arrow and Voodoo Crossbow arrow. They are certainly free to call their product whatever they wish. However, I stand behind my original assertion. 

[nyslowhand]

9 hours ago, Belo said:

you'd think for simple marketing and customer satisfaction they'd keep the delineation. 

I believe there is a little more than merely semantics. Most Xbow mfgers refer to them as arrows. Possibly attempting to keep their products more in line with vertical bow archery. Marketing smoke n mirrors.

I'll admit to being guilty of buying wrong items when in a hurry or not paying attention! Shouldn't be an issue with Xbow projectiles. Don't recall ever seeing unfinished Xbow bolts/arrows. You're always prompted or it's clearly displayed on pkging their length, either 20" or 22". Not to mention you have to specify a nock style, either flat or 1/2 moon. Agreed.. would make things so much less confusing if Xbows used apples and vertical bows used oranges.

[bugsNbows]

For the very best arrows made (IMO), I highly recommend Jerry at Tapp Nation. You can buy whatever you want... including  shafts and/or custom arrows. All he does now-a-days is make arrows and sell Scorpyd crossbows. His shop is over towards Tampa on the west coast of Florida. I've been there and talked extensively with him. Great guy. He also frequents Crossbow Nation.

[G-Man]

Good news!!  Same as status applied to assembly bill!!

Assembly Bill A7627A has been assigned a "Same As" bill in the Senate: S5818A

Assembly Bill A7627A Relates to hunting and hunting licenses; repealer Sponsor: WOERNER Recent Actions: May 14, 2019 - REFERRED TO ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION May 21, 2019 - AMEND AND RECOMMIT TO ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION May 21, 2019 - PRINT NUMBER 7627A

Review A7627A on NYSenate.gov

What this Means:

In New York State, both the Senate and Assembly must pass a bill before the Governor can consider it for signature (approval) or veto (rejection). S5818A is an identical version of A7627A in the Senate. Experienced observers know that a bill with a “same as” in the alternate house is an important early sign that a bill could pass both the Senate and Assembly. It indicates that individual lawmakers in each house are supportive of the bill.

What Happens Next:

The committee may amend the bill to satisfy concerns of committee members, leave it as is, or refer it to another committee for further deliberation. The bill may be reported to the full Senate chamber for consideration if a majority share of the committee members support it. If a bill has not been addressed by the committee by the end of the two-year legislative term, the bill is said to have 'died in committee'.

What Can I Do?

You can subscribe to email alerts for S5818A at the following URL: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/S5818A. Additionally, all members of the Senate welcome legislative feedback from constituents at nysenate.gov. When you use the New York State Senate website to officially support or oppose this bill, your feedback will be shared directly with your senator

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:23 AM, Robhuntandfish said:

 I actually love the way the seasons are setup right now cause i like to hunt with everything bow, xbow, gun. 

So if they were fully included in bow season, what would change for you? You'd still have the same implements and the same choice the day you walked out the door. No?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 5/17/2019 at 7:16 PM, nyslowhand said:

I believe there is a little more than merely semantics. Most Xbow mfgers refer to them as arrows. Possibly attempting to keep their products more in line with vertical bow archery. Marketing smoke n mirrors.

I'll admit to being guilty of buying wrong items when in a hurry or not paying attention! Shouldn't be an issue with Xbow projectiles. Don't recall ever seeing unfinished Xbow bolts/arrows. You're always prompted or it's clearly displayed on pkging their length, either 20" or 22". Not to mention you have to specify a nock style, either flat or 1/2 moon. Agreed.. would make things so much less confusing if Xbows used apples and vertical bows used oranges.

Looking back when I first started bow hunting the arrows I used were different that anything that was used in a crossbow of that time. The Bear Whitetail 2 that I shot didn't generate nearly the pressure on the arrow that the crossbow did on a bolt. I think the same could be true way back in history. With the modern advances in vertical bow technology the construction is about identical now except for length. 

 A buddy had a crossbow in early 90's and we were shooting the same arrows as each other out of our vertical bows. His crossbow was just for plinking and one day the dope loaded in one of his 2413 arrows he shot out of his Vertical. Those 2413's were pretty stiff then and were like Lincoln Logs. He is lucky he came away with no injuries becasue that arrow blew apart on the trigger squeeze. 

The Full Metal Jacket arrows I shoot out of my compound is identical construction to the Full Metal Jacket "bolts" they sell based on description and construction sizes, just shorter. That might account for some of the terminology switching. 

[Robhuntandfish]

15 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

So if they were fully included in bow season, what would change for you? You'd still have the same implements and the same choice the day you walked out the door. No?

I would certainly use the crossbow if it was allowed in all of bow.  For me at least it's a better weapon and I really enjoy mine.  It's one of my favorites to hunt with.  I enjoy the bow and would still keep it and use it.  But the crossbow would take most of it's time. 

So many people want to change the seasons all different ways. I enjoy all of them. But generally I would use the implement that has the best chance of taking a deer if given the choice and for me an Xbow is a click above the bow.  Less variables. 

I have places I hunt that are bow only so having xbow gives me more of a choice.  But no matter the season I will use what is determined. I just like them all. But once gun season opens I use that and don't go back to the bow.  It would be the same for crossbow for me most of the time.  The crossbow might be my favorite now.  I've done very well with it. 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Robhuntandfish

[G-Man]

I believe the terminology change is simply for the legislators.  They do not have a back ground so bolt sounds foreign and exotic to them and they wonder why it should be in archery..arrow is simply common and less intimidating. 

[Core]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:23 AM, Robhuntandfish said:

its to each its own..... but it just cant understand how people think a crossbow isnt easier to hunt with than a bow.  It almost seems like have they ever used one?  It has the same capabilities as a 50 yard gun.  I hunt from treestands mostly, but on the ground or from the stand you just look thru a scope and shoot.  Bow has to be drawn and more movement can be seen, have to hold it and there are more targeting issues with a bow by far.  Correct form, if shooting down bend the right way, right anchor point, no scope, etc.  even with practice those variables are still there.  I actually love the way the seasons are setup right now cause i like to hunt with everything bow, xbow, gun.  To say the crossbow is heavy - mine weighs the same as my -06.  both 7+lbs.  I can shoot my xbow quarter groups at 50.   My bow I limit to 45 and shoot 6" groups then and it would have to a perfect shot to even consider it.  Ive killed with the crossbow from the ground and from a stand and have held it on a deer - last year - for a few minutes to get the right shot.  I can have most anyone shooting bulls with my xbow in 3 shots or less - the compound takes a whole lot of practice. I would certainly like to see xbow open with a dr note though for those that cannot draw a bow.  - which in itself proves it is easier to use.   

Hell there is even an academy in Western NY for bow practice, havent seen it open to crossbow yet.  Lol  

Frankly, people pretending that hunting white tail deer with a crossbow is no easier--all other factors equal (e.g. distance, temperature, etc.)--are either lying or ignorant. I've yet to see a third option.

Anybody who has hunted with a vertical bow and a crossbow and pretends they are net equal is either using a child's crossbow or they are the world's best archer. Xbow groups better, has optical zoom, shoots flatter, hits harder.

I also like how the seasons are setup.

[Core]

On 5/30/2019 at 2:20 PM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

So if they were fully included in bow season, what would change for you? You'd still have the same implements and the same choice the day you walked out the door. No?

The same argument could be made about allowing full gun season to start Oct 1. How would that change you? You can still hunt with a bow if you like.

[Skillet]

Why should anyone have a say in the weapon I use, on my own land?

Not saying I hunt with x bow illegally, I don't.

But, what business is it to anyone who isn't paying my damn taxes? 

Yes crossbow is easier. I can pick it up after a month, and shoot a bull the first shot. This is exactly why I prefer it. In the hands of a hunter who knows it's limitations, it is a more effective and humane weapon, with less room for error.

The only drawbacks are the poor trajectory, the noise, and how easy it is to hit a limb on something.

I'd be very interested to see the amount of deer wounded by vertical bows, vs crossbows.

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Skillet

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, Skillet said:

Why should anyone have a say in the weapon I use, on my own land?

Not saying I hunt with x bow illegally, I don't.

But, what business is it to anyone who isn't paying my damn taxes? 

Yes crossbow is easier. I can pick it up after a month, and shoot a bull the first shot. This is exactly why I prefer it. In the hands of a hunter who knows it's limitations, it is a more effective and humane weapon, with less room for error.

The only drawbacks are the poor trajectory, the noise, and how easy it is to hit a limb on something.

I'd be very interested to see the amount of deer wounded by vertical bows, vs crossbows.

 

The land is yours game Is not, if we used the English system where landowner managed game your insistence of your land game.id use what I want would work but it's not all game belongs to state. Hence the rules on what is legal 

[Skillet]

28 minutes ago, G-Man said:

The land is yours game Is not, if we used the English system where landowner managed game your insistence of your land game.id use what I want would work but it's not all game belongs to state. Hence the rules on what is legal 

No insistence here. Just what I feel is a valid question. I disagree with you. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Skillet

[wolc123]

2 hours ago, Core said:

The same argument could be made about allowing full gun season to start Oct 1. How would that change you? You can still hunt with a bow if you like.

The big difference there,  is that guns go "boom", while crossbows are silent like vertical bows.  That means every deer in the county is alerted that they are being hunted when the guns open up. That tends to make them go nocturnal.

[G-Man]

11 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

The big difference there,  is that guns go "boom", while crossbows are silent like vertical bows.  That means every deer in the county is alerted that they are being hunted when the guns open up. That tends to make them go nocturnal.

It's not the boom that makes deer go nocturnal but the pressure recieved, more hunters = more pressure. More scent in woods = deer leave or hide . The main reason no one is allowed in my woods from labor day till opening day of season. Meanwhile down the road all the camps are out scouting, putting up stands ,driving ATV around clearing trail..  while the push the deer into my nice quiet safe scent free woods...

[Skillet]

2 minutes ago, G-Man said:

It's not the boom that makes deer go nocturnal but the pressure recieved, more hunters = more pressure. More scent in woods = deer leave or hide . The main reason no one is allowed in my woods from labor day till opening day of season. Meanwhile down the road all the camps are out scouting, putting up stands ,driving ATV around clearing trail..  while the push the deer into my nice quiet safe scent free woods...

Exactly. No one in my woods after 1st week of Sept. The deer will move all gun season if you're smart and hunt like you were bowhunting.

I've seen deer move like normal, right after some nearby shooting. I don't think it's the noise.

[Core]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

The big difference there,  is that guns go "boom", while crossbows are silent like vertical bows.  That means every deer in the county is alerted that they are being hunted when the guns open up. That tends to make them go nocturnal.

It's a difference, but I bet if every gun hunter only used xbow all season long you'd still see a lot of pattern changes and going nocturnal. Full inclusion absolutely would change patterns. The biggest losers in all this would be gun-only hunters, who instead of having light pressure from vertical for six weeks prior now have ever-increasing pressure from xbow as well, leaving them with even slimmer pickings and tweaked out deer come the start of regular.

[G-Man]

20 minutes ago, Core said:

It's a difference, but I bet if every gun hunter only used xbow all season long you'd still see a lot of pattern changes and going nocturnal. Full inclusion absolutely would change patterns. The biggest losers in all this would be gun-only hunters, who instead of having light pressure from vertical for six weeks prior now have ever-increasing pressure from xbow as well, leaving them with even slimmer pickings and tweaked out deer come the start of regular.

Yet if a split season was created of full inclusion for 4 weeks closed for 2 and reopen for gun that issue would be removed as well as removing the rut when most bucks are taken allowing an older age class within the herd to develop

[wolc123]

I do like it a lot, that in the southern zone, the crossbow gets the whole rut.  That has always been my favorite time to hunt deer.   I don't mind using the earlier part of archery season for turkey hunting with my shotgun or squirrel hunting with my .22.  It is usually too warm to deal with a large deer carcass at that time anyhow.   The thing that really sucks about the current rules, is that in the northern zone, the crossbow only gets (3) days before the early ML opens (who in their right mind would carry a crossbow rather than an in-line ML).  It would be a lot better if the north got 14 days like the south has.  That would open up another weekend, so us working stiffs could take advantage of the crossbow without having to burn vacation days.    I think that other "big weekend" would be a real help to merchants up in that economically depressed area.         

[Hock3y24]

I find crossbow to be about 10 times easier than compound hunting, and i'm pretty proficient with my vertical. I personally don't care either way if it happens but i won push for it or fight it. Absolutely would use the cross bow more to fill some tags as its far easier. 

[nyslowhand]

1 hour ago, Core said:

..... The biggest losers in all this would be gun-only hunters, who instead of having light pressure from vertical for six weeks prior now have ever-increasing pressure from xbow as well, leaving them with even slimmer pickings and tweaked out deer come the start of regular.

Respect your opinion, but I don't think this is the case at all. If it were to be known bet a lot of Xbow hunters are vertical bow converts for one reason or another - or - gun hunters eager to get in on the prime-time hunting. Meaning ... the only pre-gun season added pressure would be from the newly converted gun hunters taking up a Xbow...

I just don't get or understand the "easier" arguments against Xbow usage. The main squeaky wheel agreement seems to  be coming from the die-hard compound bow users who probably have bows that perform close to what Xbows do, fps/Ke. I haven't heard much from the true archery enthusiasts still using long bows. That I'd understand. Admire you vertical bow hunters that spend hour upon hour, day upon day practicing to improve accuracy &/or consistency. Been there, done that & at 72yo - NO more! Conversely, also assuming the gun hunters that are against Xbows are the ones using near-sniper type rifles. I've read some of your posts about 2-300yrd kill shots.  Again, not much anti-Xbow chatter from the true or authentic BP long gun hunters. And the anti-Xbow argument I saved for last truly puzzles me!!! It's not fair for hunters on nearby or adjacent properties to have access to an "easier" weapon to kill "my" deer.

[G-Man]

6 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

 It's not fair for hunters on nearby or adjacent properties to have access to an "easier" weapon to kill "my" deer.

That is the root of it in a nutshell, "my" deer. I've had people on back side of hill shoot bucks I've had on camera and people call me up and say so and so shot your buck.. they seem shocked I don't get upset as I tell them it's not my buck ,I'm glad he/she got it.

As I said earlier all game belongs to the state the only benefit you get as a land owner is a landowner preference if you have enough property . To keep a deer 100% on your property is near 1000 acres or more as deer dont have square home ranges. 

I killed a droptine  I had 12 photos of , neighbor had 18, and guy 3 miles away had 4 same deer no doubt.... right spot right time is all. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

14 hours ago, Core said:

The same argument could be made about allowing full gun season to start Oct 1. How would that change you? You can still hunt with a bow if you like.

You could. I think it would really be stretching the logic though. To be fair, I don't hunt public land anymore unless I want to wander over the line at camp. How many years have we had crossbows on the scene in NY?  I really don't remember but I have seen no difference in the last two weeks of deer season since they were included. I haven't seen of heard the deer drives that were warned against. I posted up that one study that was done at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds and the average shot  distance for the crossbow hunters was not that much more than the compound hunters. I believe the wounding rate was less though.  The chicken little, the sky is going to fall if they come to NY hasn't happened. If it is fully included it won't happen. I am hunting exclusively with my recurve this season. I will be in the woods with a buddy that will be carrying my compound for the first half and his crossbow for the last two weeks. I hope he smacks a giant and him hunting with it won't change my hunt one bit.