Bullet choices for deer.

[Nomad]

On 12/10/2019 at 7:47 PM, chrisw said:

I think people forget how easy deer are to kill. Deer are thin skin, light game. You don't need a premium bullet or African plains game rifle. Just put one into the crease and walk the 50 yds to your deer. Simple.

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There ya go . I can’t remember the last time I had to track a deer in gun or bow for that matter . I buy what ever 140 gr 7m08 is cheapest , put it through the heart or both lungs, I’m climbing down as soon as I can clip the gun to my haul line .

[wolc123]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:18 PM, chrisw said:

That's the way I look at shoulder shots too. It's just a waste of meat and nothing else if you're aiming for front shoulders, unless you have a really good reason for anchoring the deer in it's tracks other than not wanting to blood trail.

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I am on the fence on the shoulder shots.   With my 12 ga shotgun & SST slugs,, or 16 gauge and foster slugs, I go for them and meat damage is not bad.   I think those relatively slow, heavy bullets are the key to minimizing meat damage.  The most meat damage to a shoulder, that I have seen, was on the 2-1/2 year old buck that my neighbor gave me last year after he shot it in the hip and the shoulder with his .243.   That was enough for me to take that caliber out of the running for my own use on deer.   My 30/06 might be just as bad, but I never hit one there with it.   I suspect that the heavier, slower bullet would be at least a little less meat damage however.   

There are times when a shoulder shot is called for, including a "multiple deer" situation, a deer close to the border of posted land, where I don't have permission to enter, or when tracking conditions are bad.   

 

38 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

Almost a Christmas Miracle......

You nailed it Larry.   It did happen between Thanksgiving and Christmas and there is no doubt Who had a hand in the guiding of that bullet.  I ain't that good of a shot on my own.

Edited December 12, 2019 by wolc123

[chrisw]

The secret was to get the pointed bullet inside the deer, without having to penetrate the hide.  That would have caused some "mushroom" type expansion.  A pointed bullet makes a pin-hole thru soft tissue.   The first hard material the bullet struck, was the spine in the middle of the neck.  That is why there was no noticeable tissue damage, until it reached that point.   The exit hole thru the hide, in the front of the neck, was about 3/4" diameter.
I will admit that I was expecting a messy gutting job.  I was pleasantly surprised that it was one of the cleanest ones that I ever did.  The meat loss, due to wound damage, was also close to the least that I have seen on a deer killed with a gun.  
I would like to find that bullet.  It probably would not be too difficult with a metal detector.   I will never forget the location of the best shot that I ever made.   Others have taken the Texas heart shot, but none that I know of has pulled it off as successfully.           

Now there's a tale that'll travel around your funeral. "Like him or hate him that man could thread a pointed soft point up the ass of anything, clean as a whistle..."

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[TreeGuy]

You are what you aim for...

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[LET EM GROW]

On 12/11/2019 at 6:50 PM, TreeGuy said:

In the ass and out the neck, with no damage to the guts. Now THAT is amazing.

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My brother did that this year with his 6.5bleedmoor shooting those deer season xp.. deer was going away so he shot between the cheeks, bullet came out of deers chest between the shoulders. basically zero damage to guts.. dropped in its tracks. 

Dont ask me why he took that shot.. i asked the same thing.. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by LET EM GROW

[Daveboone]

Wolc123, I am with you with what you say about big slow bullets. The deer I shot with my patch and ball ML dropped as quick as any other deer, with very minimal meat damage. The first bear I shot (year old, dinkydinkydinky) last light on my last day, I shot with a typical behind the shoulder shot, with a 180 grain 300 Win Mag I was told I had to have. I blew out a four inch long chunk of three ribs, both its lungs and guts, and it STILL ran about 30 yards. I was so horrified I swore ...and never did...shoot that gun again.

The next 4 bears....all healthy adults, I shot with a 45-70. Knocked em over on the spot, minimal tissue damage. I keep wanting to use my 30-30 for deer (usually use my 8x57) but havent because of the sights in low light. I really want to see how it will work, which I believe will be just fine.

[Marion]

Wolc123, I am with you with what you say about big slow bullets. The deer I shot with my patch and ball ML dropped as quick as any other deer, with very minimal meat damage. The first bear I shot (year old, dinkydinkydinky) last light on my last day, I shot with a typical behind the shoulder shot, with a 180 grain 300 Win Mag I was told I had to have. I blew out a four inch long chunk of three ribs, both its lungs and guts, and it STILL ran about 30 yards. I was so horrified I swore ...and never did...shoot that gun again.
The next 4 bears....all healthy adults, I shot with a 45-70. Knocked em over on the spot, minimal tissue damage. I keep wanting to use my 30-30 for deer (usually use my 8x57) but havent because of the sights in low light. I really want to see how it will work, which I believe will be just fine.

In all fairness for a 45/70 you're using a bullet at least twice if not three times the weight of the 300

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[G-Man]

Light thin skinned game calls for a lighter soft tipped bullet , 120 to 150 grains is all that is needed to allow for expansion and exit, a soft tip core lock is the ticket.,   I agree 2 holes are better than one. 

I am a fan of close shots under 150 yards ,under 75 preferred.  Beyond that is simply target practice as I look at hunting as the ability to get close to game. Shooting an unsuspecting animal at 300 yards is like a sniper dropping a solider dead before he hears the crack of the rifle. Impressive target shooting but not for a fair chase take of game imo.

[wolc123]

10 hours ago, Daveboone said:

Wolc123, I am with you with what you say about big slow bullets. The deer I shot with my patch and ball ML dropped as quick as any other deer, with very minimal meat damage. The first bear I shot (year old, dinkydinkydinky) last light on my last day, I shot with a typical behind the shoulder shot, with a 180 grain 300 Win Mag I was told I had to have. I blew out a four inch long chunk of three ribs, both its lungs and guts, and it STILL ran about 30 yards. I was so horrified I swore ...and never did...shoot that gun again.

The next 4 bears....all healthy adults, I shot with a 45-70. Knocked em over on the spot, minimal tissue damage. I keep wanting to use my 30-30 for deer (usually use my 8x57) but havent because of the sights in low light. I really want to see how it will work, which I believe will be just fine.

One of these years, I might get a buck with a 30/30.   It sure is nicer carrying those around up in the Adirondacks, than my big heavy 30/06.   My Marlin 336BL has fiber-optic sights and my father in law's 336W has a 3-9X Marlin scope.   Both of them seem very good in low light.   I hope to find out some day how the 150 gr Federal Fusion 30/30 ammo will do on deer.   Hopefully, they will drop in their tracks and have minimal meat damage, as has both I have shot up there with 150 gr Federal classic 30/06.   

[wolc123]

13 hours ago, LET EM GROW said:

My brother did that this year with his 6.5bleedmoor shooting those deer season xp.. deer was going away so he shot between the cheeks, bullet came out of deers chest between the shoulders. basically zero damage to guts.. dropped in its tracks. 

Dont ask me why he took that shot.. i asked the same thing.. 

Probably because venison is better eating than paper.   A better question would be "Why not take that shot ? "  These examples show that a shot taken from the rear can result in less meat damage than one taken from the front.  If the only alternative is an unfilled tag, it would seem dumb not to take that shot.  There still seems to be a few folks, on some kind of moral/ethical high horse, who are just too proud to ever consider such a thing.  Hopefully they enjoy their store-bought chicken.   I prefer red meat.               

[chrisw]

Probably because venison is better eating than paper.   A better question would be "Why not take that shot ? "  These examples show that a shot taken from the rear can result in less meat damage than one taken from the front.  If the only alternative is an unfilled tag, it would seem dumb not to take that shot.  There still seems to be a few folks, on some kind of moral/ethical high horse, who are just too proud to ever consider such a thing.  Hopefully they enjoy their store-bought chicken.   I prefer red meat.               

Maybe the ethical/moral high horse is a respect for the animals that we hunt. Maybe because some people have the patience to wait for an ethical shot. Maybe because it's people like you that take bad shots then act dumbfounded when they don't find their deer. Maybe because their shown in hunters education to take high percentage shots. Maybe because guys like you will shoot a deer in the ass once and it works out for them but keep your lips tight the 5 other times it didn't.
How much meat is damaged with a ribcage hit deer? How far does a deer go when hit in the ribs?
And would you stop the whole "my family would starve in the winter months", little house on the prairie garbage? You yourself said you had a bunch of venison you didn't even touch from last year yet! That means you're taking more than you need.
There are times for "just getting another bullet into a wounded deer." Your first shot is not one of those times.

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[stubborn1VT]

You tell 'em!  Hunters judging and lecturing other hunters.  That's what we all need.  

[chrisw]

You tell 'em!  Hunters judging and lecturing other hunters.  That's what we all need.  

You're right, let's condone it to be sure the frequent newbies to the site asking advice read that shooting a deer facing away from you is an ethical shot. Then when said newbie takes said shot and comes on here asking what went wrong we can point him to the page where we said it's ok.

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[stubborn1VT]

2 minutes ago, chrisw said:

You're right, let's condone it to be sure the frequent newbies to the site asking advice read that shooting a deer facing away from you is an ethical shot. Then when said newbie takes said shot and comes on here asking what went wrong we can point him to the page where we said it's ok.

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I'm not sure why you get to decide what's right or wrong or ethical.  You do you.  Going after Wolc does more harm that good IMO.  You are complaining about a shot you won't take.  That's fine.  Wolc has first-hand experience that it works for him.  Also fine.  

It's great that we are all passionate about hunting and deer, but IMO this kind of soapbox is worse for the future of hunting than Dick's or any other anti campaign.  

[chrisw]

I'm not sure why you get to decide what's right or wrong or ethical.  You do you.  Going after Wolc does more harm that good IMO.  You are complaining about a shot you won't take.  That's fine.  Wolc has first-hand experience that it works for him.  Also fine.  
It's great that we are all passionate about hunting and deer, but IMO this kind of soapbox is worse for the future of hunting than Dick's or any other anti campaign.  

If I had shot a deer in the ass intentionally this year and came into this forum to look for emotional support for my unethical shot, how much support would I get? Would you say, "well it worked for you in the past so it was a good effort I guess?" No you wouldn't, you would tell me to stop shooting deer in the ass. As you should. People are too afraid that God forbid they offend anyone these days it's pathetic. I stand up for what I believe is right/ethical and I'm not afraid to offend someone in the process. There isn't a circle of hunters anywhere that are going to condone ass shooting deer, why should we be any different?
Or better yet, how about the kids who kicked the deer in the face repeatedly on video? Now they are trying to spin it as they were trying to kill the deer because they were out of bullets. Should we not judge them either? After all it worked for them....

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[stubborn1VT]

2 minutes ago, chrisw said:

If I had shot a deer in the ass intentionally this year and came into this forum to look for emotional support for my unethical shot, how much support would I get? Would you say, "well it worked for you in the past so it was a good effort I guess?" No you wouldn't, you would tell me to stop shooting deer in the ass. As you should. People are too afraid that God forbid they offend anyone these days it's pathetic. I stand up for what I believe is right/ethical and I'm not afraid to offend someone in the process. There isn't a circle of hunters anywhere that are going to condone ass shooting deer, why should we be any different?
Or better yet, how about the kids who kicked the deer in the face repeatedly on video? Now they are trying to spin it as they were trying to kill the deer because they were out of bullets. Should we not judge them either? After all it worked for them....

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Crusade on on Chris.  It's not about offending anyone, just a difference in approach and opinion.  The shot is more lethal and effective than you know.  You are basing your theory on theory, not experience.  

A circle of hunters who track deer in the big woods, or hunters who drive deer would condone ass shooting deer I would bet.  It's no different than shoulder shooting deer in many ways.  We aren't going to agree, but spare me the moral outrage.  

[chrisw]

Crusade on on Chris.  It's not about offending anyone, just a difference in approach and opinion.  The shot is more lethal and effective than you know.  You are basing your theory on theory, not experience.  
A circle of hunters who track deer in the big woods, or hunters who drive deer would condone ass shooting deer I would bet.  It's no different than shoulder shooting deer in many ways.  We aren't going to agree, but spare me the moral outrage.  

No crusade. Just calling a spade a spade when I see one. Happy Holidays.

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[airedale]

Taking any shot at a Deer is not a black and white situation, there are many factors that come into play when pulling the trigger. Things like distance, running or standing still, weapon being used, the bullet construction and the skill along with confidence of the shooter to name a few.

As far as I am concerned the rear end shot has proven to be as  deadly as any other shot when it is executed properly.

Al

Edited December 14, 2019 by airedale

[Buckmaster7600]

If I had shot a deer in the ass intentionally this year and came into this forum to look for emotional support for my unethical shot, how much support would I get? Would you say, "well it worked for you in the past so it was a good effort I guess?" No you wouldn't, you would tell me to stop shooting deer in the ass. As you should. People are too afraid that God forbid they offend anyone these days it's pathetic. I stand up for what I believe is right/ethical and I'm not afraid to offend someone in the process. There isn't a circle of hunters anywhere that are going to condone ass shooting deer, why should we be any different?

Or better yet, how about the kids who kicked the deer in the face repeatedly on video? Now they are trying to spin it as they were trying to kill the deer because they were out of bullets. Should we not judge them either? After all it worked for them....

 

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Comparing those two things is asinine, I have and would again today shoot deer in the ass.

 

There’s way more to deer hunting that what you see on the sportsman’s channel. You hunt how you want and I’ll hunt how I want. You take shots you’re comfortable with and I’ll do the same.

 

“Ethics” will be the demise of deer hunting as any of us know it. Everything done that someone else doesn’t agree with is thrown on the ethics plate. Won’t be long and there will be no more hunting because it won’t be ethical.

 

 

 

 

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[moog5050]

I think we can all agree that some shots provide a greater margin of error on a less than perfect shot.   The Texas heart shot is not one of them.  Wolc can call me proud but I am not teaching my daughter to shoot deer in the rear.   

[chrisw]

I think we can all agree that some shots provide a greater margin of error on a less than perfect shot.   The Texas heart shot is not one of them.  Wolc can call me proud but I am not teaching my daughter to shoot deer in the rear.   

That's exactly what I'm getting at here. There are plenty of hunting mentors on this site, how many of you consider that a viable shot worth teaching others? And we're all talking about the effectiveness, of course it can be effective but how many shots have you taken in your life that was several inches from your intended point of impact? We all have, now move that margin of error to an ass shot and you have a disaster. But apparently the hunters defending it never miss their mark by any amount...

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[Buckmaster7600]

That's exactly what I'm getting at here. There are plenty of hunting mentors on this site, how many of you consider that a viable shot worth teaching others? And we're all talking about the effectiveness, of course it can be effective but how many shots have you taken in your life that was several inches from your intended point of impact? We all have, now move that margin of error to an ass shot and you have a disaster. But apparently the hunters defending it never miss their mark by any amount...

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Will you take hard quartering to or facing shots?


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[moog5050]

3 minutes ago, chrisw said:

That's exactly what I'm getting at here. There are plenty of hunting mentors on this site, how many of you consider that a viable shot worth teaching others? And we're all talking about the effectiveness, of course it can be effective but how many shots have you taken in your life that was several inches from your intended point of impact? We all have, now move that margin of error to an ass shot and you have a disaster. But apparently the hunters defending it never miss their mark by any amount...

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People don’t like when one tells them what to do or what they did was unethical..  I get that but I will simply say it’s not a shot I would recommend to anyone learning to hunt.  Nor will I take that shot.   A few inches off, deer angled slightly etc and you have a problem.   Not worth it to me.  

[moog5050]

2 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Will you take hard quartering to or facing shots?


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Not directed to me but I don’t like those shots either but it is a little different.  You can aim at vitals from front vs traveling 1/2 the deer before hitting vitals.   Either way, I much prefer broadside or close to broadside.  A deer directly facing you also leaves little room for error.   Would you take that shot at say 200yds?   Would you take take a broadside shot at 200yds?   I suspect many would answer no to the first and yes to the second.  Why - less room for error.  

[TreeGuy]

Wow. So many rear enders on here ! I'm with others that will not take that shot. Not sure wolc, why you say if we don't take that shot we should enjoy frozen chicken..... I don't take that shot, and I've got plenty of meat in the freezer.

Maybe ass shooting and balls eating is something I'm missing out on, but I'm good with that.

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