So you think you know coyotes in NY? Do you?

[Rattler]

This is what we have in my area.  Many of you self imposed "experts" don't seem to know anything about these yotes, yet you think you know yotes.

I'm posting this for those who refuse to accept anything without "scientific proof".  Open your mind and educate yourself.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Rattler

[wolc123]

30 minutes ago, blackbeltbill said:

Watching now. I think the DEC should allow Spring Turkey Hunters in future years to kill Coyotes ( incidentally)   while Hen calling to Gobblers and a Coyote comes in to the hunter instead! I have had the Safety off 4 times on Coyotes coming in to my Hen calling.

Be careful what you wish for.   I think the "coywolf" (aka Eastern coyote) does the wild turkey more good than harm. The reason being that they are extremely efficient at taking out coons and foxes which are both big-time nest predators.     

 

[Rattler]

I'm all for a year round yote hunting season without limit, 24/7.  Yes the coywolf does control coons and fox, but also loves turkey eggs and young poults.

[wolc123]

34 minutes ago, Rattler said:

I'm all for a year round yote hunting season without limit, 24/7.  Yes the coywolf does control coons and fox, but also loves turkey eggs and young poults.

I am also for a year round season, but if I were an exclusive "turkey-guy", who had little or no use for deer like Bill, I might reconsider.  NY politics is so disfunctional (as evidence by the the crossbow fiasco), that it will require a coyote killing a toddler before a year-round season.  I am certain they will "get right on it" after that happens. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by wolc123

[Rattler]

Well, if nothing else, it gives him another game animal to take while hunting turkey.

[nyslowhand]

Found this Nat Geo documentary a little bizarre when it cast the urban Eastern Wolf population as non-threatening to humans, pets, etc. Must be a Canadian take on the issue!?! Never heard the term coywolf describing the Eastern coyote, which by definition is the wolf/coyote hybrid. Did find it interesting when researchers sampled blood or DNA, they found Eastern and Western coyotes in the same areas.

2 hours ago, wolc123 said:

.......... The reason being that they are extremely efficient at taking out coons and foxes which are both big-time nest predators.     

I hunt in an area of very high raccoon populations and maybe a single family unit of coyotes. If what you're suggesting is true, there should be more yotes around due to a large food source and way fewer coons. Just not seeing that where I've hunted the past ~15yrs! Possibly as an opportunistic meal, but not seeking raccoons out as a primary food source!

This video is exactly why I have this opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EVbnWubVjI

 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by nyslowhand

[Jeremy K]

The guy that crawls in that tiny den and has to get pulled out by his feet has my respect, wtf! I'll say it again after watching this ,what a magnificent creature. A magnificent creature that's population needs to be maintained.

[Rattler]

I didn't know it was allowed in NJ.  I wish NY would wise up and allow it during turkey season too, as I have had them come to my calls many times.  And I would never consider shooting a yote out of season, on my own property, when the turkey numbers are waning, and the newborn fawns are vulnerable.  Never!!

[mlammerhirt]

https://www.wgrz.com/amp/article/sports/outdoors/conflicts-with-coyotes-can-be-prevented-across-western-new-york/71-89eb2962-ee60-4cb0-b085-c8cbd46fe6b4?__twitter_impression=true

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[chrisw]

Ok, I'll bite again. I watched the video. What are you trying to prove? We all know coyotes can adapt to just about anywhere? The video did not portray them as bloodthirsty as you do. It did not say they are highly dangerous. It did not say they should be eradicated. In an effort to keep this from an educational standpoint I highly recommend you listen to the podcast that Jeremy K provided a link to yesterday. In case you don't, it shows that coyotes are not actually invasive. They have been here since the earliest Europeans arrived albeit in smaller numbers due to the presence of wolves. Since the wolves were all but eradicated it provided the stage for coyote populations to grow rapidly. And staying with the science based facts... Yes, coyotes kill fawns, and the occasional adult deer although rarely. But do you know which animal kills more fawns than coyotes? Bears. And we have an increasing number of bears in NY State. A study was done in PA and found that bears kill far more fawns than coyotes do.
Another study that was done in an area with no coyotes (Delaware) showed that fawn survival was at 45% without the presence of predators and remained roughly the same when done in areas with large predators. That tells you that nature levels the playing field.
Another train of thought is that by better controlling the deer populations you also better control coyote populations and fawn mortality. It's a term called "predator swamping." In this case, a coyote kills one fawn per week during the spring. When you have a healthy deer herd and a short intense rut you cut the fawning period into a short window in the spring. When the fawning period is 5 weeks long due to an improperly balanced herd now you've given the predators 5X the opportunity to prey on fawns.
In conclusion, there has not been a single response in any of these threads including my own that even hints at not killing coyotes. I do and will continue to. But if the reason you're killing them is to give yourself a big pat on the back for helping a fawn or turkey then your vision is a bit skewed. This coyote issue is not a single spoked wheel. To come at the issue with the mindset of "You just need to kill them all" is not being a steward of the land or a responsible sportsman. We have so much available, credible information at our fingertips now that it's foolish to keep our heads stuck in the sand when it comes to conservation. Sometimes if your on the fence with an issue you should ask yourself (I stole this line from the podcast afore mentioned), "Can I defend my actions in the name of conservation."?


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[rachunter]

1 hour ago, nyslowhand said:

Found this Nat Geo documentary a little bizarre when it cast the urban Eastern Wolf population as non-threatening to humans, pets, etc. Must be a Canadian take on the issue!?! Never heard the term coywolf describing the Eastern coyote, which by definition is the wolf/coyote hybrid. Did find it interesting when researchers sampled blood or DNA, they found Eastern and Western coyotes in the same areas.

I hunt in an area of very high raccoon populations and maybe a single family unit of coyotes. If what you're suggesting is true, there should be more yotes around due to a large food source and way fewer coons. Just not seeing that where I've hunted the past ~15yrs! Possibly as an opportunistic meal, but not seeking raccoons out as a primary food source!

This video is exactly why I have this opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EVbnWubVjI

 

 

That was awesome !!!!

[airedale]

I have been around long enough to have seen this whole Coyote story evolve, from what was a Chupacabra like myth to what we have today. When I was a kid they were called Coydogs and they were as rare as Hen's teeth, many believed they did not exist and even the DEC did not acknowledge them. As their population grew they started getting shot by hunters  and caught in traps proving their existence.

Back in the late seventies I worked for a good friend of mine in his sporting goods store "Johns' Sporting Goods" in Rome NY. John was also one of the biggest raw fur buyers in NY and we had trappers and hunters from all over NY and neighboring states come in to sell their catches. The fur trade was a great barometer to gauge the Coyote's population growth from just a few pelts coming in to the hundreds in later years as populations exploded.

Anyone who does not believe their impact has not been significant has their heads up their ass. As someone who has always been an enthusiastic small game hunter I have seen a big drop in several species populations. Cottontail Rabbits have just about vanished from my neck of the woods, it is a rare event to see one these days. When I was a kid they were all over the place, you could not drive down a country road a mile without seeing one dead from being run over by a vehicle. Same with Woodchucks, when I was a young fellow there with so many, one could not look over a large hayfield and not see plenty of Woodchucks standing on the hind legs looking for danger. The same fields today you will not see even one. Some will say farming practices are the cause of these declines and while I agree that is part of the blame it is not all of it. I attended a NY state Houndsman banquet and we had a state biologist expert in the Eastern Coyote as a guest speaker. He and his team examined the contents of Coyote's stomachs and during the warm months almost every single one contained woodchucks and his exact words were "if anyone has wondered where all the woodchucks have disappeared to there you have it". Master Wolfer Gary Strader feels that Rabbits are also one of their favorite foods. He says if you want to hunt or trap Coyotes find a good Rabbit population and you will find Coyotes.

Being opportunists Coyotes will eat just about anything they can catch or find, Turkeys, Grouse, Pheasant and their eggs are on the menu all of these gamebirds populations are declining recently. They will kill Foxes, Possums and Coons which may be taken on occasion but I have a hard time believing they kill Fox or Coon with any regularity. Having hunted both Fox and Coon for over fifty years with some pretty fair dogs it is a rare thing to catch a Coon on the ground and if you do catch a big one they can hold their own in a fight. Catching Fox outside their den pretty hard to do in my opinion, I think they just move out of the territory when they are Coyotes around. And of course it is no secret that new born fawns and deer taken during the winter are very common.

They will also eat cats and small dogs if they can get the opportunity to grab one. I know of several Hare hunter whose Beagles just vanished while running a Hare and like Gary Strader points out where the are Rabbits you will find Coyotes and it is probable those Beagle got picked off.

I don't think anything should be completely exterminated but animals like Wolves and Coyotes belong in wild places and let them thrive there, once they get to have large populations around people the problems start showing up and that is when the gloves come off.

Al

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by airedale

[Jeremy K]

You can tell a person's narrative on the subject when they only list the game animals they hunt as the stuff coyote eat . They do a good job at eating rats and mice too. 

[airedale]

On

1 hour ago, Jeremy K said:

You can tell a person's narrative on the subject when they only list the game animals they hunt as the stuff coyote eat . They do a good job at eating rats and mice too. 

One of my favorite things to do was hunting Rats with Terriers.

Al

Edited February 2, 2020 by airedale

[Rattler]

The main point of the video in the OP is to illustrate the difference between coyotes and Eastern Coyote, a.k.a. "coywolves".  What we deal with in my neck of the woods are Eastern Coyote that average 40 lbs, some going 50 lbs or more.  If you doubt that, look into some of the top 10 entered in NY coyote contests each year.  They list the weights. 

Pay close attention in the video to the part where the man in the museum compares the size of the skulls, their teeth, the broad skull which allows greater strength to the bite and then tells you how they go after larger prey than mice and rabbits, like deer.  We are not dealing with "little" western yotes here and the way they act in the wild is very different, especially when they are running in packs.

The video strives to stay on the safe side talking about urban yotes and avoids mentioning too many mishaps, only glancing over the death of a human by "coywolves".  I suspect it's a PC thing, or an attempt to avoid a lot of hate mail from viewers who don't want to know the truth.  They do, however, begin to advise the viewer how these big yotes are losing their fear of humans and why that is dangerous.  Imagine being caught in the woods by 3 or more 40 lb Eastern Yotes that have lost their fear of humans.   It's happened already and it is ugly.  But that's not the issue right now.  Deer predation is.

Now think of what they can do to a deer in the woods when they go after it.  Once they have taken down a deer, it becomes a routine.  The return on investment for the energy expended, is better than any other prey animal they can go after.  They learn that fast.  They are smart.

If you want to see what "coywolves" (Eastern Coyotes) can do, Google some info and you can find all the truth you could ever need.  There are many confirmed cases of attacks on humans as well as at least one death.

These are not the yotes most "scientists" who write books about coyotes are studying.  Like the video states, they're "new" to them and they know very little about them, because for many years they refused to believe they existed.  They're only beginning to see what we have known for years.

[Nytracker]

I dont know much about yotes. I have had them in my yard many times . I have seen them  in a group of 5 chase a small doe  through my yard.

This morning we had a light snow . I had deer tracks acrossed my yard and a pair of " dog tracks " .  One stayed on the deer tracks the other came up my walk  nosed around my trash can and up my deck steps to my door and back down . The tracks then joined up with the deer tracks . I'm going to call them yotes.

I think yote season should be  open year round and a target of opportunity . Perhaps I mean no season . Kill them anytime no limit .

Edited February 2, 2020 by Nytracker

[Rattler]

1 hour ago, chrisw said:

Yes, coyotes kill fawns, and the occasional adult deer although rarely.   Plenty of adult deer can be found around here that have been killed by yotes.  No fawns at all.  They eat every bit of them.

 

But do you know which animal kills more fawns than coyotes? Bears. And we have an increasing number of bears in NY State.  The bear/yote population ratio is not even close, hence bears do far less damage to overall deer populations than yotes do.

Another study that was done in an area with no coyotes (Delaware) showed that fawn survival was at 45% without the presence of predators and remained roughly the same when done in areas with large predators. That tells you that nature levels the playing field.  That tells most scientists that Delaware has poorer habitat for deer than the other areas they studied.  You can not change variables without affecting results.

Another train of thought is that by better controlling the deer populations you also better control coyote populations and fawn mortality. It's a term called "predator swamping." In this case, a coyote kills one fawn per week during the spring. When you have a healthy deer herd (Smaller Deer Herd) and a short intense rut you cut the fawning period into a short window in the spring. When the fawning period is 5 weeks long due to an improperly balanced herd (Larger Deer Herd) now you've given the predators 5X the opportunity to prey on fawns.  So they are condoning decreasing the deer population and increasing the yote population.  That's why informed hunters are against it.  That is what is bad for small communities that rely on sportsman's dollars.

In conclusion, there has not been a single response in any of these threads including my own that even hints at not killing coyotes. I do and will continue to. But if the reason you're killing them is to give yourself a big pat on the back for helping a fawn or turkey then your vision is a bit skewed.   It's not about self gratification.  It's about population management and flawed research.  It's also about not bowing to the will of the anti's in this battle, which will cause us to lose the entire war.

 

This coyote issue is not a single spoked wheel. To come at the issue with the mindset of "You just need to kill them all" is not being a steward of the land or a responsible sportsman. Nobody is saying that.  It's about managing the population for the benefit of other species that have greater economic value.

 

We have so much available, credible information at our fingertips now that it's foolish to keep our heads stuck in the sand when it comes to conservation. Sometimes if your on the fence with an issue you should ask yourself (I stole this line from the podcast afore mentioned), "Can I defend my actions in the name of conservation."?  I just did.

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Rattler

[chrisw]

If we're truly only starting to begin to understand these wild canids then couldn't a lot of your (Rattler) preconceived notions also be false? Wild canids have been here for 5.3 million years, they aren't going anywhere. Nature never supports a landscape without predators.
How many deer do you kill each year? Why are you more deserving of a deer than coyotes? Because you buy a license?
Anecdotal evidence is far more misleading than scientific in nature. I forget who posted a picture in the other thread but it was a freshly eaten deer leg. So are we just assuming that a coyote killed that deer? Why? Because it fits your narrative? Because a coyote utilized it after it had died? Assumption has no place in science.
Another poster called out the reason that he so vividly hates coyotes is because they can spread disease. I wonder if this person also seeks out raccoons, possums and skunks? There are far more of these animals out there as carriers of disease than coyotes. So it begs the question.... Why single out one animal as the woes of your problems? The answer is because you put a value on ungulates greater than anything else. Because you have a reason to value ungulates. Because the government in the 20's and 30's viewed the coyote as another form of wolf and declared them a vermin that must be eradicated. Why? Because Europeans that first came to this country had no experience with coyotes, there were none over there. What they did have was wolves, and being primarily sheep farmers, wolves were the enemy. When they showed up here and started seeing coyotes, they were the new wolf to them. The generations of misinformation have led us to where we are now.
Do you go to the doctors office and argue with them on diagnosis or treatment? No you probably wouldn't, why? Because those individuals have passed tests, studied, researched and had practical studies in their field. So to blatantly turn a blind eye to leading experts in the canids field is a reflex mechanism to something that could possibly change what you've always thought and the thought of being wrong for decades is appalling to most people. We know more at this very minute than we ever have about these creatures, why not use the most recent information? These are peer reviewed studies, they have merit.
Someone else also mentions rabbits, squirrels, pheasants and turkeys as being wiped out by coyotes. I disagree but following that logic.... There are several on here who seem to wear their disregard for science, game laws and manners of take as a badge of honor as if it makes them crusaders on a righteous voyage. Do those same people also kill hawks? Eagles? Ravens? These birds of prey all prey heavily on small game. Do you pick redtail hawks off of telephone poles? If you do, would you come on here to brag about it?
What if I owned some great riverfront property and loved perch. I also saw walleyes as the enemy and wouldn't listen to anyone who told me otherwise regardless of science. The walleyes are eating my perch. So, based on that alone I catch every walleye I can and dispose of them, with no regard to laws, bag limits or common sense. Would you also support that? I saw a problem and I'm addressing it. Same as you're doing?


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[Rattler]

Like I said prior, some animals have greater economic value to the communities they exist around, and that is the reason for the conservation of deer, Elk, Moose, waterfowl, grouse, small game and trout in America.  Like it or not, yotes are an expense and always will be.

Don't forget it was sportsman's money that paid for all of that conservation.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Rattler

[left field]

45 minutes ago, Rattler said:

If you want to see what "coywolves" (Eastern Coyotes) can do, Google some info and you can find all the truth you could ever need.  There are many confirmed cases of attacks on humans as well as at least one death.

No, only one death. And not in the US. A young woman in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia was mauled by two coyotes on a hiking trail and later died in the hospital. I happen to know this trail as I hiked it in 1990. 

If human life was your driving concern, you should start to whack deer as they contribute to approx 200 deaths in the US due to collisions as well as just over a billion in insurance claims. 

[chrisw]

Like I said prior, some animals have greater economic value to the communities they exist around, and that is the reason for the conservation of deer, Elk, Moose, waterfowl, grouse, small game and trout in America.  Like it or not, yotes are an expense and always will be.
Don't forget it was sportsman's money that paid for all of that conservation.

How are coyotes an expense? It seems to me that most local municipalities have had to pay to have deer removed from cities and towns every year for the past several years. Let's not forget high deer densities are also high tick densities (Lyme disease). You did a good job at avoiding my other questions asked above I see...

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[UpStateRedNeck]

I enjoyed the first 20 of that video, rest was old news.  The specifics of the origins of the Eastern Yote was cool.  We definitely have the bigger variety around here, and have for a long time.

 

What are you guys even arguing about at this point?

[Rattler]

19 minutes ago, chrisw said:

How are coyotes an expense? It seems to me that most local municipalities have had to pay to have deer removed from cities and towns every year for the past several years. Let's not forget high deer densities are also high tick densities (Lyme disease). You did a good job at avoiding my other questions asked above I see...

If yotes are limiting deer hunting or turkey hunting opportunities in areas that rely on them for income they're an expense.  They are also expense in any area where money has been spent to increase wildlife populations.

Areas that need to have deer removed have created that expense by not allowing hunting to trim the population.  Same with Lyme issues.

I don't see where I avoided any of your questions.  Did you miss one of my posts?

 

[chrisw]

I enjoyed the first 20 of that video, rest was old news.  The specifics of the origins of the Eastern Yote was cool.  We definitely have the bigger variety around here, and have for a long time.
 
What are you guys even arguing about at this point?

I'm starting to ask myself the same thing now... I think where the disconnect is, is that the younger generation has enlightened themselves to actual studies and biology whereas the older mentality is coyotes are the worst thing ever and a scapegoat for all of the natural world. Old habits are hard to break, I get it. But to refute modern day science is foolish and naive to me. I never had a chance at changing any of the old mindset people. What I was hoping to accomplish is enlighten people who weren't tainted by that mindset yet.

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[Rattler]

What do you know about the North America Model of Wildlife Conservation?  It has worked for a long time.  It's a proven system.  Your young mindset worries conservationists.