New riots in Rochester

[Chef]

In jail ? Throw him in without knowing the facts then ? That’s a little harsh 

The fact is the pepper sprayed a 9 year old who was handcuffed


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[Northcountryman]

You’re getting hung up on the 9 year old thing and do not know the all the facts  ; neither do I . If it was unwarranted , I’m with you , til you know  , I would reserve judgement 

[9jNYstarkOH]

1 hour ago, crappyice said:

Imagine if a teacher even “gently nudged” a student along who was acting inappropriately...then imagine it was any of these guys kids...I’m sure they would be just fine with that.


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I was more than gently nudged by teachers growing up at times but I went to a smaller rural school. I was in the wrong and caused the teacher to react in this manner and no one freaked out and the only one mad about it at the time was me. Looking back now at 35 I think the teachers was right and I should not have caused the issues. But today everyone wants to coddle kids so a gentle or more than nudge will cost a teachers a job and the kid will keep acting in the same manner either way. In no way does this endorse pepper spraying 9 year olds in school but I can say some of these nudges helped straighten me up which in the long run benefited me and I honestly believe that was the teachers intentions.

Edited February 2, 2021 by 9jNYstarkOH

[Buckmaster7600]

I was more than gently nudged by teachers growing up at times but I went to a smaller rural school. I was in the wrong and caused the teacher to react in this manner and no one freaked out and the only one mad about it at the time was me. Looking back now at 35 I think the teachers was right and I should not have caused the issues. But today everyone wants to coddle kids so a gentle or more than nudge will cost a teachers a job and the kid will keep acting in the same manner either way. In no way does this endorse pepper spraying 9 year olds in school but I can say some of these nudges helped straighten me up which in the long run benefited me and I honestly believe that was the teachers intentions.

Yea but if the cop had the ability to physically put some sense into the young girl without being worried about the repercussions we wouldn’t even having this conversation.

Instead society has tied cops hands to the point where pepper staying a 9yr old was even a frigging option.

I was an asshole of a kid/teen I was smacked by family, family friends, teachers, coaches and higher ranks. All were completely in the right and I deserved everyone of them!


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[diplomat019]

1 hour ago, Northcountryman said:

Didn’t say that either ; I don’t see it in black and white terms like you appear to . That’s neither a criticism or an affirmation , just an observation 

So then what are you saying?   Either you think it was justified or you dont?  The cops felt it was justified, so that's why they did it.   They upheld the law in their eyes.  They just wanted to make it home to their families.  I happen to feel that pepper spraying a handcuffed 9 year old girl is not warranted with 3 adults present.   We are on a thread discussing if it was warranted or not.  

[DoubleDose]

I watched the video and I'll throw in a different perspective than all prior.  Disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney.  Pepper spray, I believe, is considered less lethal force and not non-lethal force.  The whole situation hinges on whether the police were justified in using pepper spray on an individual that was already in handcuffs, subdued, and in a patrol car.  The police had control of the situation.

9 years old or not? irrelevant

prior record or not? irrelevant

gang affiliation? irrelevant

psychological or emotional issues? irrelevant

manipulative? irrelevant

you would have done the same? irrelevant

Edited February 2, 2021 by DoubleDose
clarification

[9jNYstarkOH]

34 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Yea but if the cop had the ability to physically put some sense into the young girl without being worried about the repercussions we wouldn’t even having this conversation.

Instead society has tied cops hands to the point where pepper staying a 9yr old was even a frigging option.

I was an asshole of a kid/teen I was smacked by family, family friends, teachers, coaches and higher ranks. All were completely in the right and I deserved everyone of them!


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If some discipline (gentle nudges) was taught to this girl by parents, teachers and others who should be positive roll models in her life there would have be no need for the cops is my point.  But at this point if anyone of those people actually disciplined this girl they would be the ones being arrested and sprayed if resisting so we have these situations. And people can pick sides on this incident but the coddling of kids and not allowing some discipline by people in these kids life’s will continue to cause police to come into family situations that they should not have to be involved with and will continue to have bad results.

[Northcountryman]

13 minutes ago, diplomat019 said:

So then what are you saying?   Either you think it was justified or you dont?  The cops felt it was justified, so that's why they did it.   They upheld the law in their eyes.  They just wanted to make it home to their families.  I happen to feel that pepper spraying a handcuffed 9 year old girl is not warranted with 3 adults present.   We are on a thread discussing if it was warranted or not.  

We are ? Where did it say on the thread that you need to adopt a position on whether the police were justified or not In this sordid affair?  I must have missed that !!
Im pointing out that many of us jump to conclusions without knowing the entire facts ; I’m noncommittal till knowing more . You appear to be more comfortable with pronouncing them (  ie , the cops ) guilty and in the wrong without knowing squat ; THATS what I’m saying . Your dealing in absolutes in your assessment and , with all due respect , that’s where I think you’re Going wrong , at least , till more info is made available ( cuz you may be right about the excessive force thing but as it stands right now , you don’t know !!)

[Northcountryman]

23 minutes ago, DoubleDose said:

I watched the video and I'll throw in a different perspective than all prior.  Disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney.  Pepper spray, I believe, is considered less lethal force and not non-lethal force.  The whole situation hinges on whether the police were justified in using pepper spray on an individual that was already in handcuffs, subdued, and in a patrol car.  The police had control of the situation.

9 years old or not? irrelevant

prior record or not? irrelevant

gang affiliation? irrelevant

psychological or emotional issues? irrelevant

manipulative? irrelevant

you would have done the same? irrelevant

I needs to see me this video ; did any one post ? 

[9jNYstarkOH]

21 minutes ago, DoubleDose said:

I watched the video and I'll throw in a different perspective than all prior.  Disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney.  Pepper spray, I believe, is considered less lethal force and not non-lethal force.  The whole situation hinges on whether the police were justified in using pepper spray on an individual that was already in handcuffs, subdued, and in a patrol car.  The police had control of the situation.

9 years old or not? irrelevant

prior record or not? irrelevant

gang affiliation? irrelevant

psychological or emotional issues? irrelevant

manipulative? irrelevant

you would have done the same? irrelevant

This may help with the understanding of less lethal or non lethal force as no force can be called non lethal do to many variables.

https://fas.org/programs/bio/chemweapons/documents/Lewer and Davison.pdf

 

[diplomat019]

14 minutes ago, Northcountryman said:

We are ? Where did it say on the thread that you need to adopt a position on whether the police were justified or not In this sordid affair?  I must have missed that !!
Im pointing out that many of us jump to conclusions without knowing the entire facts ; I’m noncommittal till knowing more . You appear to be more comfortable with pronouncing them (  ie , the cops ) guilty and in the wrong without knowing squat ; THATS what I’m saying . Your dealing in absolutes in your assessment and , with all due respect , that’s where I think you’re Going wrong , at least , till more info is made available ( cuz you may be right about the excessive force thing but as it stands right now , you don’t know !!)

Based off the video do you think that could have handled it differently?  Like maybe pulling her into the car a little more and closing the doors?  Im just having a hard time understanding how trained adults can't get a little girl, who is already handcuffed, who was already in the back of the car, a little further into the car and then shut the door.  Me and you could do this without any training and no pepper spray .  

[diplomat019]

9 minutes ago, Northcountryman said:

I needs to see me this video ; did any one post ? 

Now you're trolling lol.. Well played.

[Northcountryman]

35 minutes ago, diplomat019 said:

Now you're trolling lol.. Well played.

No really , hadn’t seen it cuz I was t aware was posted lol; just found it though and I’ll check it out 

[DoubleDose]

1 hour ago, 9jNYstarkOH said:

This may help with the understanding of less lethal or non lethal force as no force can be called non lethal do to many variables.

https://fas.org/programs/bio/chemweapons/documents/Lewer and Davison.pdf

 

Thanks for this. 

[crappyice]

No really , hadn’t seen it cuz I was t aware was posted lol; just found it though and I’ll check it out 

And so....


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[crappyice]

Instead society has tied cops hands to the point where pepper staying a 9yr old was even a frigging option.

I was an asshole of a kid/teen I was smacked by family, family friends, teachers, coaches and higher ranks. All were completely in the right and I deserved everyone of them!


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Umm...HER hands were literally tied behind her back when they pepper sprayed her.

As to your next point about you being “...an asshole...” well....never mind.


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[Buckmaster7600]

 

Umm...HER hands were literally tied behind her back when they pepper sprayed her.

 

As to your next point about you being “...an asshole...” well....never mind.

 

 

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I’ve had many co workers hurt as well as myself by someone who was cuffed. Granted it was a 9yr old but just because someone is handcuffed doesn’t mean they aren’t a threat.

 

 

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[ADK Native]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/01/us/rochester-police-pepper-spray-child/index.html 

The article states “The officers were told the girl was "suicidal" and that she had "indicated that she wanted to kill herself and she wanted to kill her mom," the deputy chief explained.” 

The 9 year old girl was reported to be suicidal and threatening to commit murder?  Sounds like a very serious situation the police officers were sent into.  This must have waved heavily on their judgment and actions to control an alleged violent person.   

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rochester-police-pepper-spray-9-year-old-girl/ 

The article states “Police said the girl was eventually taken to Rochester General Hospital, "where she received the services and care that she needed," and was later released to her family.”  

So she no longer want to kill her mother and commit suicide?  That is good news since she did not kill her mother or herself.  Any credit to the police officers for restraining the violent 9 year old girl and get her to the hospital that apparently helped change her murderous and suicidal mind? 

 

How about those who are complaining how the police handle these situations, volunteer to assist the police unarmed by making first contact with people having behavioral problems?  Maybe they can demonstrate a better way to control and secure those having behavioral problems.  They have time to publically complain, protest and riot.  Surely they have time to help those with behavioral problems like this 9 year old girl.

 

[Northcountryman]

1 hour ago, crappyice said:

And so....


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Just viewed it ; to be honest , it was kind of hard to follow . The camera was off to the side a lot and not focused on the girl or the officers, so it’s hard to tell exactly what’s going down between the girl and the cops . Lot of yelling , lot of crying , lot of admonishments by police but , other than that , very difficult to conclude a whole lot from it . It appears they were suspended pending an investigation anyway so , I’m sure they regret it now . I’d like to hear their explanation as to why that level of force was applied , I guess . 

[Northcountryman]

Now , having viewed the video , I would ask this to all: do you feel the rioting in the city was A justified Response to the alleged use of excessive force on the girl by the cops ? And if so , why is looting, burning and rioting justified ? Further , would there have been a similar response if the “victim “ had been white and / or officers black ? 

[Buckmaster7600]

From someone that deals with individuals acting like this on a nearly daily basis I’ll say this.

Restraints and less than lethal force are for the officers safety and the offenders.

If the officers let her continue to flail and carry on in the car she could have hurt herself, or the cop car. A cop is completely justified in using less than lethal to help prevent either of those instances.

If she was trying to hurt the officers they were justified in using less than lethal force to prevent physical harm to themselves. A kick to the dink hurts no matter how old the person kicking is.

Its easy to Monday morning quarterback. Everyone that watched the nfc game last week was screaming at the tv when Rogers had the ball on 3rd and goal when he threw into double coverage instead of running it in. The difference is Rogers has practiced that moment for probably 35 years and still made the wrong decision.

The officer probably has minimal if any training in how to deal with a deranged 9yr old. It’s hard to imagine a need to pepper spray a 9yr old but none of us were there. If the cops pulled her from the car to protect her or the vehicle and used body holds many of you would be saying the same things about how an officer could use physical force on a 9yr old girl.

We put officers in shitty situations daily, its getting worse by the day. Many departments are grossly understaffed due to difficulties in recruiting. Honestly who in the hell wants to be a cop in today’s world. This causes many officers to work forced over time. I don’t know how many of you have worked multiple 60-80 hour work weeks back to back but I can promise you that your mental acuity isn’t there.


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[Enigma]

3 hours ago, diplomat019 said:

Based off the video do you think that could have handled it differently?  Like maybe pulling her into the car a little more and closing the doors?  Im just having a hard time understanding how trained adults can't get a little girl, who is already handcuffed, who was already in the back of the car, a little further into the car and then shut the door.  Me and you could do this without any training and no pepper spray .  

What's your definition of a "trained adult"? How many classes and seminars and college degrees does one require to be properly trained to manage a situation like this? Apparently none in your view. Please, tell us how you and your partner would have gotten her a little further into the car? Before you do though, let me give you my first hand example of a similar situation.

At one time my ex wife and I were foster parents. We attended classes (trained) for 12 weeks before being approved to take in children. We also had two children of our own. Once approved we fostered several different children ranging in age from infants to age 12 or so. Some individuals, some family groups. Some relatively easy to foster, some more difficult. We'd been foster parents for less than 6 months when CPS called and asked us to foster "A", a 7 yo boy. We agreed of course.

I won't get into all of the details but I will say this. "A" was a very disturbed young man and when he left us after a short stay it took FIVE "trained" adults over 4 hours to get "A" in the car for transport to the hospital. I repeat. FIVE adults. 4 hours. One 7 year old boy. One social worker, one police officer, two paramedics and one doctor. "A" threw himself out of a moving car suffering injuries, ran through town in traffic, severely injured the social worker's hand and violently kicked, screamed and resisted until finally being restrained (hands and feet) and sedated. A terrible, terrible episode for all involved, none more than "A". 

I'm sure those LEOs had "training" at some point in their career. Should they have broken out the training manual in the street and referred to the section on physically belligerent children before putting her in the car? Called a superior for permission before they sprayed her? I make no judgement on the actions of the officers in the video because I was not present that day. But to suggest that you, or anyone else with NO training whatsoever, when placed in the same scenario, would have managed the situation better is demeaning to the officers who responded that day. 

[Shoots100]

12 hours ago, Splitear said:

Yes, hard to watch. If your response to this is "they could have done worse to her", then we are not going to find any common ground. I agree that police have a difficult job, but unless there is some extreme circumstance that led to this outcome, then I don't think it was handled correctly. If you disagree, that's your own prerogative. 

My response is to you, thinking that was actually hard to watch.

I've seen principles in catholic school treat students that fell asleep in class with worse punishment and then those students got their asses beat at home for it too.

I came from a different time, when people were held accountable for their actions and the police weren't called because a 9 year old is acting out, they were called for real problems.

If I did something wrong, I got disciplined by my parents.

If I didn't, I didn't and life went on.

Now it's the nanny state, full of a bunch of pansy ass pussies that think their supposed to be friends, not parents to their children and the police are supposed to fill the authoritarian role and discipline their children.

Well, this is what happens sometimes.

This isn't the cops fault, it's the demented societies fault. 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Shoots100

[diplomat019]

5 hours ago, Enigma said:

What's your definition of a "trained adult"? How many classes and seminars and college degrees does one require to be properly trained to manage a situation like this? Apparently none in your view. Please, tell us how you and your partner would have gotten her a little further into the car? Before you do though, let me give you my first hand example of a similar situation.

At one time my ex wife and I were foster parents. We attended classes (trained) for 12 weeks before being approved to take in children. We also had two children of our own. Once approved we fostered several different children ranging in age from infants to age 12 or so. Some individuals, some family groups. Some relatively easy to foster, some more difficult. We'd been foster parents for less than 6 months when CPS called and asked us to foster "A", a 7 yo boy. We agreed of course.

I won't get into all of the details but I will say this. "A" was a very disturbed young man and when he left us after a short stay it took FIVE "trained" adults over 4 hours to get "A" in the car for transport to the hospital. I repeat. FIVE adults. 4 hours. One 7 year old boy. One social worker, one police officer, two paramedics and one doctor. "A" threw himself out of a moving car suffering injuries, ran through town in traffic, severely injured the social worker's hand and violently kicked, screamed and resisted until finally being restrained (hands and feet) and sedated. A terrible, terrible episode for all involved, none more than "A". 

I'm sure those LEOs had "training" at some point in their career. Should they have broken out the training manual in the street and referred to the section on physically belligerent children before putting her in the car? Called a superior for permission before they sprayed her? I make no judgement on the actions of the officers in the video because I was not present that day. But to suggest that you, or anyone else with NO training whatsoever, when placed in the same scenario, would have managed the situation better is demeaning to the officers who responded that day. 

A trained adult in this situation is someone who has met all the standards to be a Rochester police officer.  
 

If you feel they had no other option but to pepper spray the girl while she was handcuffed in the back of the car then thats your position. Maybe you think that a handcuffed 9 year old is a serious threat. 

[DoubleDose]

9 hours ago, Northcountryman said:

Now , having viewed the video , I would ask this to all: do you feel the rioting in the city was A justified Response to the alleged use of excessive force on the girl by the cops ? And if so , why is looting, burning and rioting justified ? Further , would there have been a similar response if the “victim “ had been white and / or officers black ? 

Protesting peacefully (by all means), absolutely acceptable.  Rioting, arson, looting, and violence, absolutely UNACCEPTABLE.  Unfortunately, I feel this will be the norm until our political leaders in power (both sides) unequivocally condemn and bipartisan vocally and publicly support the forceful stopping of it, rather than being silent for the votes.

"Further , would there have been a similar response if the “victim “ had been white and / or officers black ? "  In my opinion, no, you would not be aware of this because it would be deemed not newsworthy by the MSM.

Appreciate these officers are being tried in the (HuntingNY) court of public opinion, which has no bearing.  I raised the point "The whole situation hinges on whether the police were justified in using pepper spray on an individual that was already in handcuffs, subdued, and in a patrol car.  The police had control of the situation."  Many with no LE training feel no they were not, those with some LE training feel they were.  We do not no what the Rochester PD training, if any,  is, which is a factor.

While it appears to me not justified, I am also not informed on important points to have a position that it was not justified.  This is another reason we have courts and a legal system; and not mob rule.