Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[wztirem]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

I guess you have not fished for fluke in the Long Island waters recently! Nary a keeper to be caught.

[Dave]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

I guess you have not fished for fluke in the Long Island waters recently! Nary a keeper to be caught.

Went fluke fishing on Fathers Day caught 3 all throw backs. I read there is a 20-1 ratio for every 20 fish you catch one is a keeper.

Dave

[Geno C]

i know there are alot of new game laws that have become over the past years BUT none of which has detered me away from any sport fishing or hunting. I can see it being an issue for some but im not too concerned with what others may be doing and why. To be honest i can careless if there has been a decline in hunters. I dont think any law they make aside from making hunting illegal will totally abolish hunters in the woods altogether. There will always be hunters hunting... Id aim some of that gripe on less hunters in the woods to tradition. Its not like it used to be and i see alot of traditions falling through the cracks and some kids/new hunters not really being gun ho for the sport. But i dont mind not seeing red or orange hats every 50 freakin feet in the woods or trucks parked all up and down every road hunting. It used to be a sausage fest in some woods with hunters walking around everywhere. I dont know about you but i dont miss those days a whole heck of a alot. I dont mind walking into a bar and seeing majority of girls and just handful of guys. But im straight and i guess thats just me? lol

point being at one point it used to be congested in some areas, especially out here. i dont really care what every tom dick and harry are doing and why they are not hunting. I know the hunters in the woods now are getting the job done and number prove it each year...

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

Article from a guy who makes his living chasing trophy bucks, asking if this has all gone too far.

http://www.petersenshunting.com/2011/06/30/is-quality-deer-management-ruining-hunting/

[steve863]

Although I agree with this articles general premise on the over-emphasis on trophy hunting, I do think the writer took some liberties to try to make his point here.  I think it would take a monumental jerk to try to tell a 13 year old that his buck didn't measure up NO matter what the properties rules on antler size might be.  I just couldn't imagine anyone being so bold and callous to tell a kid that he shouldn't have shot even if he shot the smallest of doe's, thus I think the author probably made it up to make his story sound better.  Obviously I will never know for sure, but it wouldn't be the first time lies have been used to try to pursuade the reader.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Although I agree with this articles general premise on the over-emphasis on trophy hunting, I do think the writer took some liberties to try to make his point here.  I think it would take a monumental jerk to try to tell a 13 year old that his buck didn't measure up NO matter what the properties rules on antler size might be.  I just couldn't imagine anyone being so bold and callous to tell a kid that he shouldn't have shot even if he shot the smallest of doe's, thus I think the author probably made it up to make his story sound better.  Obviously I will never know for sure, but it wouldn't be the first time lies have been used to try to pursuade the reader.

I have run across guys that wouldn't hesitate to call the kid out. One note...they don't have kids whick can leave some in a very selfish state of mind

[Dave]

Article from a guy who makes his living chasing trophy bucks, asking if this has all gone too far.

http://www.petersenshunting.com/2011/06/30/is-quality-deer-management-ruining-hunting/

Great read it has gotten out of hand. I couldn't tell a 120 from a 130 class deer, never had one killed where I hunt in the past 20 yrs. And I don't think AR will change that any time soon.

Dave

[steve863]

Although I agree with this articles general premise on the over-emphasis on trophy hunting, I do think the writer took some liberties to try to make his point here.  I think it would take a monumental jerk to try to tell a 13 year old that his buck didn't measure up NO matter what the properties rules on antler size might be.  I just couldn't imagine anyone being so bold and callous to tell a kid that he shouldn't have shot even if he shot the smallest of doe's, thus I think the author probably made it up to make his story sound better.  Obviously I will never know for sure, but it wouldn't be the first time lies have been used to try to pursuade the reader.

I have run across guys that wouldn't hesitate to call the kid out. One note...they don't have kids whick can leave some in a very selfish state of mind

Wow, how sad! Also agree with you on the not having kids part and selfishness.  I don't think anyone can ever understand what giving of oneself really means until they become caring parents, and I put an emphasis on CARING, since being a parent and being a caring one are two different things in todays world.

[5.9cummins]

I have to drive 3hrs up to my place to hunt, I am not complaining I love it up state.

Dave

LOL

3hrs off the island and your upstate you should be a comedian

[5.9cummins]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

So how do you practice catch and release?

[Dave]

I have to drive 3hrs up to my place to hunt, I am not complaining I love it up state.

Dave

LOL

3hrs off the island and your upstate you should be a comedian

It's not so bad I usually stay up for 3 or 4 days so I don't have drive back in traffic on Sunday nights.

Dave

[BIGTOM]

Living in 3M and having AR the last few year these are my observation.

1st- Hunter numbers have gone way down. Mostly hunters from NYC and the Island. Why? who wants to travel hours and not be able to take home some "meat".

2nd- I have a butcher that is a neighbor and only cuts up 1/2 the deer he use to. Last year Christmas was really hard on him for lack of funds!!

3rd- The deer that are reaching 3 or more years and are growing some head gear are getting "jacked" at night!!! Many just fo the antlers not the meat!! I travel 24 miles back and fourth to work "all country roads" and believe me the deer are not any bigger than they were 3 years ago!!

[nyantler]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

 

I don't buy this.  You probably catch your walleye in public waters, while the majority of hunters still prefer to hunt private land for various reasons, which if you didn't notice is getting harder to come by OR costing hunters more and more to have access to.  Whether you own it or lease it, it costs WAY more money than catching your walleye in public waters.  There lies the difference.  People won't be wasting their time and money on hunting if there is very little that is legal for them to shoot.

You must have forgotten the cost of the boat, gas, license... but his point had nothing to do with harder or easier.. it was that no matter what.. you don't really have a choice if the DEC says you don't... and he's right.. most guys will continue hunting.. AR's or not... the ones that don't oh well... nobody has yet mentioned that maybe guys will stop hunting if something isn't done about managing the buck age structure cuz they're sick of seeing only young bucks... or maybe some guys wanna quit cuz there are too many hunters in the woods killing the first thing they see... this "everyone is gonna take their ball and go home" is a bunch of nonsense.

[wztirem]

Clearly, AR aside,the DEC has a much bigger problem, namely deer management per specific WMU's. The AR argument generates controversay amongst the hunting fraternity while the real issue is whether or not the DEC is competent enough to manage the deer population as it relates to the carrying capacity of the habitat.

First things first, and then we can argue about AR. Surely HR (herd reduction) as it relates to the habitat in specific WMU's is the most important issue at hand.

Enough of the smoke and mirrors for goodness sakes.

[Geno C]

that was a great read.. thanks for posting

[Doc]

Just a word or two about the need for hunter satisfaction. The DEC has only one tool for adjusting herd sizes and that is the hunter. If you lose the hunter, you lose the ability to manage deer. So absolutely, hunter satisfaction had better play a part in any process or thinking that involves hunting rules and regulations.

If you lose every hunter then you have no deer management... that just will not ever happen...there will always be a percentage of hunters that will hunt no matter what... and if resident hunter numbers diminish too far... surrounding non-residents will be encouraged to pick up the slack with reduced license fees and other insentives... yes it is true that hunter satifaction is part of the equation, but hunter selfishness should not be...

No, you do not have to lose EVERY deer hunter to get into a position of not being able to keep up with the expansion of the deer population ...... And the DEC knows it. There are already some places that pose control problems because of limited hunters. I and others have already noted places where the hunting pressure is a lot less than it used to be in the past.

The DEC is obsessed with having the hunters in sufficient numbers to do the job, and there is no question that they feel that they need to improve the efficiency of the shrinking hunter numbers. I don't doubt for a minute that they recognize the importance of not frustrating hunters out of the sport. They understand that their only chance at controlling deer numbers lies in having a large enough force of hunters to do the job. I also believe that that is the prime reason for their foot-dragging when it comes to the implementation of AR. Everytime the subject comes up they talk about the polls that show a significant percentage of disapproving hunters. Why do you suppose that they worry about such things? The answer is simple ........ They understand that there could be a negative impact on their hunter population and that that impact could have a negative effect on their ability to manage the deer numbers.

[bubba]

I was gonna chime in but I figured after 119 pages, what else can be said.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

No disrespect doc but i do not think that is the case.Hunter numbers are going to drop no matter what the dec decides.With hunters getting older and the population in general getting lazy in their lifestyles and not to mention the kids of today not picking up the sport hunting could some day be doomed as we know it. If you think that statement is poppycock just take a look at the high fence hunting operations in the country.Trust me when i say they are getting more and more clients every year!!!

[SteveB]

I was gonna chime in but I figured after 119 pages, what else can be said.

Come on Bubba - we are only about 50 pages from having this whole thing solved.

[Geno C]

^^ lol

and we can use your help Bubba... 

[steve863]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

 

I don't buy this.  You probably catch your walleye in public waters, while the majority of hunters still prefer to hunt private land for various reasons, which if you didn't notice is getting harder to come by OR costing hunters more and more to have access to.  Whether you own it or lease it, it costs WAY more money than catching your walleye in public waters.  There lies the difference.  People won't be wasting their time and money on hunting if there is very little that is legal for them to shoot.

You must have forgotten the cost of the boat, gas, license... but his point had nothing to do with harder or easier.. it was that no matter what.. you don't really have a choice if the DEC says you don't... and he's right.. most guys will continue hunting.. AR's or not... the ones that don't oh well... nobody has yet mentioned that maybe guys will stop hunting if something isn't done about managing the buck age structure cuz they're sick of seeing only young bucks... or maybe some guys wanna quit cuz there are too many hunters in the woods killing the first thing they see... this "everyone is gonna take their ball and go home" is a bunch of nonsense.

Lots of fishing can be done without a boat, and one gets most of the excitement involved in fishing by reeling in that fish even if it doesn't measure up and you have to throw it back.  The same cannot be said about hunting.  You could have a perfect set up and see scores of deer that don't quite measure up from your stand, but guess what?  You don't know for sure whether your bullet or arrow would have connected on that deer unless you actually fire your weapon at it.  There are only so many deer the majority of hunters will let walk because the law says they have to let them walk, before they take up other activities where they DON'T need to buy a license, pay property taxes, pay for leases, just to LOOK at animals.  You can hike without a license and see scores of animals.  You can photograph them on public or private land without a license.  Why would hunters continue to buy licenses if they knew there was only a slim chances of even seeing a deer that was actually legal to shoot??  Yeah, some would continue to buy licenses, but don't for a minute think the many weekend warrior hunters out there wouldn't be saying "the hell with it, why am I even wasting my time!".  Lots of distractions in every day life to make hunting not the most important priority for most people.  All it takes is to make the sport a little less appealing, and people will very easily give it up.  I for one have way LESS desire to hunt these days than I did 20 years ago.  Why?  Mainly because there are way MORE important things in life than hunting.  Make it where my chances of getting a doe permit are slim and where I can only shoot a buck that meets AR restrictions and I will then prefer to spend my limited free time in the outdoors hiking with my wife and kids instead of sitting in a stand by myself and waiting around for nothing.  I could twiddle my thumbs on my living room sofa just the same and probably be more comfortable doing it! LOL

[Doc]

No disrespect doc but i do not think that is the case.Hunter numbers are going to drop no matter what the dec decides.With hunters getting older and the population in general getting lazy in their lifestyles and not to mention the kids of today not picking up the sport hunting could some day be doomed as we know it. If you think that statement is poppycock just take a look at the high fence hunting operations in the country.Trust me when i say they are getting more and more clients every year!!!

I have to admit that (in fact I think I already did) that the reasons for the decline in hunters is a huge and varied list. When compared with some of the real heavy hitters, rules and regs are most likely not even real high on that list. But I have no doubt that just because there are already a whole bunch of reasons for hunter loss and poor recruitment that certainly is not a signal that we should be giving those that are on the fence a little push away from hunting.

I keep hearing some comments from others that it is a good thing that we are losing hunters. Fewer hunters improve the quality of the hunt. In my mind while that may be true in the short term, that is indeed a short sighted view that looks only at our own individual wants without a care for the future of the sport. Personally, I have a lot of years dedicated to these outdoor activities, and I would not like the thought of my descendants being deprived of the same enjoyments that I had throughout my life. Another thing that I keep thinking about is that the smaller our numbers get as an already tiny minority the less our political influence becomes and the stronger the ever-growing animal rights people's influence becomes. yes, I feel quite confident that hunting will be there for me and my kids and maybe even my grand-kids for most of their lives. But I am almost convinced that the demise of hunting is just a matter of time. The best we can do is to stall it off as much as possible. Harrassing hunters out of the sport through unnecesary restrictions is probably not a real good way to stall off the end of hunting. At any rate, those are my concerns and the reason for my comments.

[Dave]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

 

I don't buy this.  You probably catch your walleye in public waters, while the majority of hunters still prefer to hunt private land for various reasons, which if you didn't notice is getting harder to come by OR costing hunters more and more to have access to.  Whether you own it or lease it, it costs WAY more money than catching your walleye in public waters.  There lies the difference.  People won't be wasting their time and money on hunting if there is very little that is legal for them to shoot.

You must have forgotten the cost of the boat, gas, license... but his point had nothing to do with harder or easier.. it was that no matter what.. you don't really have a choice if the DEC says you don't... and he's right.. most guys will continue hunting.. AR's or not... the ones that don't oh well... nobody has yet mentioned that maybe guys will stop hunting if something isn't done about managing the buck age structure cuz they're sick of seeing only young bucks... or maybe some guys wanna quit cuz there are too many hunters in the woods killing the first thing they see... this "everyone is gonna take their ball and go home" is a bunch of nonsense.

Lots of fishing can be done without a boat, and one gets most of the excitement involved in fishing by reeling in that fish even if it doesn't measure up and you have to throw it back.  The same cannot be said about hunting.  You could have a perfect set up and see scores of deer that don't quite measure up from your stand, but guess what?  You don't know for sure whether your bullet or arrow would have connected on that deer unless you actually fire your weapon at it.  There are only so many deer the majority of hunters will let walk because the law says they have to let them walk, before they take up other activities where they DON'T need to buy a license, pay property taxes, pay for leases, just to LOOK at animals.  You can hike without a license and see scores of animals.  You can photograph them on public or private land without a license.  Why would hunters continue to buy licenses if they knew there was only a slim chances of even seeing a deer that was actually legal to shoot??  Yeah, some would continue to buy licenses, but don't for a minute think the many weekend warrior hunters out there wouldn't be saying "the hell with it, why am I even wasting my time!".  Lots of distractions in every day life to make hunting not the most important priority for most people.  All it takes is to make the sport a little less appealing, and people will very easily give it up.  I for one have way LESS desire to hunt these days than I did 20 years ago.  Why?  Mainly because there are way MORE important things in life than hunting.  Make it where my chances of getting a doe permit are slim and where I can only shoot a buck that meets AR restrictions and I will then prefer to spend my limited free time in the outdoors hiking with my wife and kids instead of sitting in a stand by myself and waiting around for nothing.  I could twiddle my thumbs on my living room sofa just the same and probably be more comfortable doing it! LOL

Steve well put, and there are alot of weekend warriors out there especially from Long Island. If you restrict what we can shoot, limit DMP then what are we going to hunt? Nothing, just like NYS pay through the nose and get nothing for it. The deck is stacked against the hunter to sit in all types of weather just to see a deer of two that are not legal to shoot. He pays for gas, tolls, lodging if he doesn't have a place to stay and he has to eat. Not to mention the price of the license. And there are  guys on this site that think that it will not reduce the numbers of hunters , then they have their heads in the sand. Not to forget all the things you have mentioned taxes, leases. So what do you get for a NYS hunting license?  And this is hunter satisfaction, I think not.

Dave

[Skillet]

I'm against antler restrictions.  I like to think about it like this: imagine going back in time and telling an indian that he can't shoot a spike, because he'd be bigger next year.  I know times are different now, as most of us do not hunt for survival, but the reasons we hunt should not revolve around antlers.  I do not hunt to get antlers.  I have no problem with someone who does, but I do not feel that anybody else has the right to tell me I must do so also.  For me, hunting is about meat in the freezer, it could be a doe, a small buck, or a big buck, whichever walks in front of me first.  If AR were to become mandatory in my area, then I guess I would become a criminal.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

If that is all it would take to make you a criminal one has to wonder how many you have all ready taken behind the scenes???