The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[growalot]

Will you please tell me where and when all these surveys take place...For not once ..EVER has anyone approached me with a hunting survey

[erussell]

I am a rehabilitated freezer filler.

[nyslowhand]

Go through the 12 steps?

Electro-shock?

Hope you didn't have to go through the water-board re-programming....lol

[nyantler]

We always hear about this filling the freezer and I need the meat but the surveys show that only 22% of the hunters said that meat was the most important reason for hunting which makes sense since so few hunters get a buck yet still go hunting.

I think erussell's statement was ment to be sarcastic....

[Doc]

I'm going back to the original question of "who is excited about expanded AR". I can only say that I'll reserve my excitement until I read some encouraging news about the results in the areas that have had AR for a bunch of years. Is it working? Do they have more and bigger and older bucks? Has there been any impact on the primary management tools ...... the hunters? Has the herd shown any kind of improvement because of a change in age structure of the bucks? Has putting restrictions there increased pressure on surrounding WMUs? Why is such a divisive, contentious, and controversial concept lacking in published results when we have so much time invested the experiment already? Show me some positive results in the areas that I mentioned, and I'll work on conjuring up some "excitement". Until then, it's just an aggravating source of controversy that generates a whole lot more heat than light.

[nyantler]

I'm going back to the original question of "who is excited about expanded AR". I can only say that I'll reserve my excitement until I read some encouraging news about the results in the areas that have had AR for a bunch of years. Is it working? Do they have more and bigger and older bucks? Has there been any impact on the primary management tools ...... the hunters? Has the herd shown any kind of improvement because of a change in age structure of the bucks? Has putting restrictions there increased pressure on surrounding WMUs? Why is such a divisive, contentious, and controversial concept lacking in published results when we have so much time invested the experiment already? Show me some positive results in the areas that I mentioned, and I'll work on conjuring up some "excitement". Until then, it's just an aggravating source of controversy that generates a whole lot more heat than light.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/arsummary11.pdf

[Meat Hunter]

I am excited about AR being expanded. Attached is a report that is a generated from DEC data. Look at the harvest charts.

http://www.nyswmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ARBooklet.pdf

http://www.nyswmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/YBP-AR-Evaluation-in-NY-June-2011.pdf

[TheTruth2]

They have had this in effect for 3 or 4 years now in letchworth. ive seen no drastic change, at all.

[Meat Hunter]

They have had this in effect for 3 or 4 years now in letchworth. ive seen no drastic change, at all.

WHAT WMU and county is Letchworth?

[TheTruth2]

8m, livingston county i believe? could be wrong on the county. Ive hunted there all my life and have seen some giant bucks. but i see no correlation or pattern with the AR. this past season a friend of mine shot one of the biggest bucks to be taken out of the park

[burmjohn]

WHAT WMU and county is Letchworth?

Its a state park in 8M.

REMEMBER LETCHWORTH STATE PARK ADOPTED THE NYS PILOT PROGRAM OF ANTLER RESTRICTION HARVEST. ONLY BUCKS WITH AT LEAST ONE ANTLER (THE ANTLER IS AT LEAST 3

INCHES LONG) WITH AT LEAST 3 POINTS OR MORE AND EACH POINT BEING AT LEAST ONE INCH LONG

CAN BE HARVESTED. THIS RESTRICTION WILL APPLY TO ARCHERY, SHOTGUN AND MUZZLELOADING

SEASONS. HUNTERS UNDER THE AGE OF 17 ARE EXEMPT FROM THE POINT RESTRICTION.

http://nysparks.com/parks/attachments/Letchworth2011HuntingInformationApplication-Shotgun-2011.pdf

[growalot]

Also over the last several years 8M has had restrictive doe tags given out...not until last year did they really start to increase them again

[SteveB]

I am excited about AR being expanded. Attached is a report that is a generated from DEC data. Look at the harvest charts.

http://www.nyswmc.co...7/ARBooklet.pdf

http://www.nyswmc.co...Y-June-2011.pdf

From where and how are the harvest numbers and age %'s being calculated.

I doubt that anymore then a small % of bucks are ever accurately aged.

[Meat Hunter]

DEC biologists are doing the aging from deer checks. Aging Fawns to 3.5 year olds are easy if you’re trained and can be done from 4.5 up by those that are experienced.

[Meat Hunter]

Its a state park in 8M.

REMEMBER LETCHWORTH STATE PARK ADOPTED THE NYS PILOT PROGRAM OF ANTLER RESTRICTION HARVEST. ONLY BUCKS WITH AT LEAST ONE ANTLER (THE ANTLER IS AT LEAST 3

INCHES LONG) WITH AT LEAST 3 POINTS OR MORE AND EACH POINT BEING AT LEAST ONE INCH LONG

CAN BE HARVESTED. THIS RESTRICTION WILL APPLY TO ARCHERY, SHOTGUN AND MUZZLELOADING

SEASONS. HUNTERS UNDER THE AGE OF 17 ARE EXEMPT FROM THE POINT RESTRICTION.

http://nysparks.com/...hotgun-2011.pdf

First 3 points on one side is not correct to protect the majority of yearling bucks in 8M. The standard should be 4 points or better a spread. Second it is a park rule and not a DEC regulation or Law. So I am unclear as to the compliance. The size of the park is important variable in success.

[burmjohn]

Yeah not sure of the size, googling around i found 12,000 acres?

[TheTruth2]

15,000 acres. i beleive about 12,000 is huntable. nearly the entire east side is huntable with the exception of the dam overlook. west side is much smaller

[Meat Hunter]

good article

http://www.eveningtribune.com/topstories/x1249727649/Are-antler-restrictions-the-wave-of-the-future-in-NYS

[SteveB]

DEC biologists are doing the aging from deer checks. Aging Fawns to 3.5 year olds are easy if you’re trained and can be done from 4.5 up by those that are experienced.

And what % of the bucks killed are being checked?

[growalot]

Lets see...every single land owner in this area hunts...the nearest check station is 5 towns away over ,,,a half hour drive...most butcher their own deer...I can't imagine this is an uncommon scenario...So % of hunters in state to % of deer ever checked for age

flawed...flawed flawed

[nyantler]

And what % of the bucks killed are being checked?

It is possible that the DEC has help from outside sources such as sportmans groups and club that do agings on buck killed in their groups... there are even biologists that frequent processors and age the bucks that come in... it still is only a fraction of what is taken but statistical formulas help. Although not an exact science it would be accurate enough to see any trend towards improvement in the buck age structure.

[SteveB]

Trends possibly IF they where doing the same protocol for at least ten years.

But to lists %'s to the .01 and claim they are accurate is a tough one to swallow.

Most bucks killed are never aged and entered into their equation.

It is entirely possible and probable the ratio for those not included (the vast majority) to be far different

from the very small sampling most likely being used.

[nyantler]

Trends possibly IF they where doing the same protocol for at least ten years.

But to lists %'s to the .01 and claim they are accurate is a tough one to swallow.

Most bucks killed are never aged and entered into their equation.

It is entirely possible and probable the ratio for those not included (the vast majority) to be far different

from the very small sampling most likely being used.

I think the sampling is larger than you think with the number of taxidermists and butchers visited each year... most that I have spoken with have had a visit from someone seeking numbers... I was actually kind of amazed to find out that they actually frequent both spots to gain data. Not amazed that they should , but more that they actually did.

[Larry]

Just to let you know the AR in Letchworth was primarily put in place to increase the doe harvest. The thought being by putting 50% or more of the1.5 year old bucks off limits guys with the option to kill a doe would take one instead of waiting on any buck. It’s also easier to see no antlers then to count points. You do get some benefit that you may see older bucks but most of the food sources are outside of the park. Who knows how many bigger bucks you will see because of the AR being in p ace no one will never know. There have always been a good number of big bucks in the park

[Meat Hunter]

Found this on a website:

From Catskill Mountain News:

Mandatory antler restrictions a boon to hunters and economy

in Community News

By Brian Sweeney

Restrictions on antler sizes will be expanded to the Catskills during the 2012 white-tailed deer hunting season, the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation has announced.

The Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) unveiled a number of changes of last week as part of its Five-Year Deer Management Plan.

The DEC will extend mandatory Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions (a minimum of three points on one side) into Wildlife Management Units 3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S and 4W — located in Sullivan, Ulster, Delaware, Greene and Schoharie counties — as called for in the Deer Management Plan.

This change, which was previously in effect in other parts of the state, is designed to ensure the long-term health of the deer population.

“The DEC is working to develop a systematic and objective process to guide future decisions regarding antler restrictions or other buck harvest strategies to best satisfy the desires of New York deer hunters and stakeholders,” officials said, explaining the strategy.

Old rules hurt herd

Under previous guidelines, allowing the harvest of bucks with a minimum of one three-inch antler resulted in most bucks in NY being taken as immature juveniles before they can reach adulthood, according to the DEC.

The new rules allow the DEC to market to hunters the promise of a plentiful supply of adult bucks.

In a study by Cornell Surveys, commissioned by the DEC, data showed that most hunters in New York favor greater restrictions on antler sizes.

A number of representatives of sportsmen’s groups praised the DEC for expanding the Antler Restrictions (AR).

Joe Montalbano, from Ulster County, remarked, “We have really seen excellent results in our area. It used to be that a fork horn was the normal buck but now with antler restrictions the new normal buck is an eight-pointer.”

Change of heart

He added,”I have to admit when Antler Restrictions were proposed in 2004 I strongly opposed them at our federation meetings. To anyone who is opposed to it now, I would say, ‘Go for it 100 percent — it really works!’ Our club, Marbletown Sportsmen, for the first time in its 62-year history has harvested an 11-point buck and other clubs are having the same success.”

Delaware County Economic Development spokesman Bill Willis praised the new AR,

Boost to business

“Most deer hunters are dissatisfied with their buck hunting and this is clearly shown in the fact that New York is losing two hunters for every new hunter recruited. This will have large economic impacts to the state. New York deer hunters contribute over $700 million to the economy.”

Jay Martin, Big Game Chairman of the Federated Sportsmen’s Clubs of Ulster County, was also enthusiastic about the expansion of AR.

“Protecting yearling bucks results in a large increase in the age of the bucks harvested. For example 3.5-year-old buck harvest is up 258 percent in the AR areas of Ulster and Sullivan counties. Both Ulster and Sullivan counties have harvested the biggest bucks since the late 1920s in the AR areas and the overall buck take is up 5.7 percent over the pre-AR harvest.

Dick Henry, a recently retired New York DEC biologist, said the Yearling Buck Protection program is having an enormous impact on the state’s deer herd.

“I have never seen a single white-tailed deer management program that has invigorated and excited hunters more. Hunters in the current AR areas are hunting a deer herd that many generations of NY hunters have never experienced,” he stated enthusiastically.

In other news, the state will also adjust bear hunting seasons to remain concurrent with deer seasons. DEC’s wildlife personnel believe that retaining a consistent season structure for big game hunting is currently preferable. It was noted, however, that future bear management might necessitate deviation from this approach.

from issue dated 07/17/2012