AR question

[jjb4900]

I mean for god's sake, it's deer hunting, it's supposed to be fun, not a competition on who get's the biggest deer......the deer camp's of old are going by the wayside and we're seeing more and more solo hunter's consumed by the quest to harvest the biggest deer....growing big deer with food plot's and sitting over them for deer is not what I enjoy, to me this turned it into more of a business than something we do for pleasure.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

I mean for god's sake, it's deer hunting, it's supposed to be fun, not a competition on who get's the biggest deer......the deer camp's of old are going by the wayside and we're seeing more and more solo hunter's consumed by the quest to harvest the biggest deer....growing big deer with food plot's and sitting over them for deer is not what I enjoy, to me this turned it into more of a business than something we do for pleasure.

You forgot high fenced hunts. I was at the taxidermist and there was 50 something point nontypical with a 20 something spread. The taxidermist said the guy paid $28,000.00 to shoot it on a high fenced hunt. Good these high fenced hunts you can actually pick out what deer you and want prior. You also pay for what size of deer your going to get in advance. 100% guarantee. Did not realize there where guaratees in hunting

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thats because those guaranteed, small, enclosed deals are just shoots, they arent hunts. Theres one around the corner from my old house, and one of my hunting spots. The guy raises them in a barn and small pen, then loads them into a horse trailer and releases them into his 300 acre pen from there. Sounds like a real hunting experience to me lol.

[Paula]

I have no idea how to tell the age of a deer

[covert]

I have no idea how to tell the age of a deer

Saw off a leg and count the rings.

[covert]

The surest way is by looking at the wear patterns on the teeth. Other than that it is just estimation based on the appearance of different parts of the body.

[SteveB]

What would shooting a button bucks accomplish? Thats the area you are hunting so that deer won't get any larger for you the following year. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you are shooting 3 year old deer or older you don't have to worry about antler restrictions because they will have a massive rack by that age.

This is the post I was responding to above.

Not sure how Jimmy's got in there.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Thats because those guaranteed, small, enclosed deals are just shoots, they arent hunts. Theres one around the corner from my old house, and one of my hunting spots. The guy raises them in a barn and small pen, then loads them into a horse trailer and releases them into his 300 acre pen from there. Sounds like a real hunting experience to me lol.

Thats just it... Its not your experience thats taking place. Its the guy that makes that choice...

[Doc]

Guns&ReligionCop.....I hear you, but if I was to take 4 does off the land I hunt, that would set the herd back substantially........like I said earlier, my area needs to establish quantity before they work on quality and as I also stated, I understand each area is vastly different.

See that's what makes AR discussions a bit more complicated than just "yeah, I'm for them or No, I'm against them". I don't see it as being that simple. I think it is a management choice that requires a bit of local study and analysis. I hear people talking all the time like they would like to see AR as a statewide regulation. My take on it all is that here are specific conditions that make AR practical, useful, and maybe even harmless. It is not a one-size-fits-all kind of regulation. And yet I have to wonder if those management decisions and studies even enter into the minds of most hunters, or the DEC for that matter.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thats just it... Its not your experience thats taking place. Its the guy that makes that choice...

I didnt say they should be illegal or anything. Im just saying that they are not for me, and that they are not hunting.

[nyantler]

See that's what makes AR discussions a bit more complicated than just "yeah, I'm for them or No, I'm against them". I don't see it as being that simple. I think it is a management choice that requires a bit of local study and analysis. I hear people talking all the time like they would like to see AR as a statewide regulation. My take on it all is that here are specific conditions that make AR practical, useful, and maybe even harmless. It is not a one-size-fits-all kind of regulation. And yet I have to wonder if those management decisions and studies even enter into the minds of most hunters, or the DEC for that matter.

How could protecting yearling bucks with a 3 pt on a side rule be harmful?

[nyantler]

Well, the reason anyone would walk (run) away and leave the illegal deer would be a reaction to having broken the law. So technically it would be something that wouldn't have happened without the change to ARs. And I still am honest enough to admit that such a thing absolutely could happen by mistake.

So then technically the current rule could cause some one to break the law... no doe tag.. didn't look hard enough and shot a buck with 2 1/2 inch spikes... I'm honest enough to say that isn't a mistake. That falls on the hunter not the law. Basically what you're saying is that the laws need to be dumbed down until the law breakers can't possibly break the law... the hell with the law's objective... we're going to start making laws and rules to protect the hunters from their own lack of responsibility..

[Pygmy]

This conversation brings to mind something that a camp manager of a caribou camp in northern Quebec told me and my partners on a hunt there in 1998..

Marcel said...." Remember....You are HUNTING, not SHOPPING.."...

[Doc]

So then technically the current rule could cause some one to break the law... no doe tag.. didn't look hard enough and shot a buck with 2 1/2 inch spikes... I'm honest enough to say that isn't a mistake. That falls on the hunter not the law. Basically what you're saying is that the laws need to be dumbed down until the law breakers can't possibly break the law... the hell with the law's objective... we're going to start making laws and rules to protect the hunters from their own lack of responsibility..

You're not listening. I am not saying that AR should automatically be rejected because mistakes will be made. I am simply agreeing with those that have been saying that mistakes will be made. And there is no doubt in my mind that a large percentage of those deer that wind up laying in the woods will indeed be honest mistakes.

And yes, I'll bet some spikes that wind up rotting in the woods are because of people who thought those 2-1/2" spikes were really 3". And that could easily mean that they really thought they looked like they were 3" or bigger. And yes, an ECO would not cut anybody any slack over that, but that still doesn't mean that the guy didn't truly believe they were 3" and maybe even thought they were even much bigger. The main reason that so few of them are left probably has more to do with the fact that they can put them on an antlerless permit instead of running away from the mistake. In fact it is likely that a lot of spikes are shot because they were mistakenly thought to be does.

[nyantler]

You're not listening. I am not saying that AR should automatically be rejected because mistakes will be made. I am simply agreeing with those that have been saying that mistakes will be made. And there is no doubt in my mind that a large percentage of those deer that wind up laying in the woods will indeed be honest mistakes.

And yes, I'll bet some spikes that wind up rotting in the woods are because of people who thought those 2-1/2" spikes were really 3". And that could easily mean that they really thought they looked like they were 3" or bigger. And yes, an ECO would not cut anybody any slack over that, but that still doesn't mean that the guy didn't truly believe they were 3" and maybe even thought they were even much bigger. The main reason that so few of them are left probably has more to do with the fact that they can put them on an antlerless permit instead of running away from the mistake. In fact it is likely that a lot of spikes are shot because they were mistakenly thought to be does.

You must not be listening to what I'm saying... not taking the time to be absolutely sure of what you are shooting at is not an honest mistake. It is instead not doing what needs to be done to follow the law.. no matter what the law is... I guess we both can agree that there will be deer left in the woods, but we disagree that that it will not be an honest mistake. So I'm also saying that it is not a good excuse for breaking any law... which makes it not a good argument against AR's.

I absolutely understand that there will be irresponsible hunters that will shoot the wrong deer... there have been irresponsible hunters way before AR's and there will be long after.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

Its hunting so there is a gray area or it would be called shooting. The law however reads in black and white so if that means not shooting something that your not 100% on like we could have done in the past, well it can't be chalked up to a honest mistake in the laws eyes even if was just an honest mistake. Or we could all be perfect like me :-) Joking

[Paula]

no your not

[Doc]

You must not be listening to what I'm saying... not taking the time to be absolutely sure of what you are shooting at is not an honest mistake. It is instead not doing what needs to be done to follow the law.. no matter what the law is... I guess we both can agree that there will be deer left in the woods, but we disagree that that it will not be an honest mistake. So I'm also saying that it is not a good excuse for breaking any law... which makes it not a good argument against AR's.

I absolutely understand that there will be irresponsible hunters that will shoot the wrong deer... there have been irresponsible hunters way before AR's and there will be long after.

Well, that's a nice thought and it all sounds real good, but in reality, there will be people who are absolutely convinced that what they are seeing is a legal deer. And that later turns out to be a mistake. And anyone who claims that they never make mistakes .... well .... what can I say about that .....lol. In terms of the law, there probably is not one ECO that would let you off with that excuse whether it was true or not. It's kind of like having a faulty speedometer. You may believe you were within the speed limit, but that will never get you out of a ticket. But you did make a mistake. I'm sure somebody could say that you should have had that speedometer checked that morning to avoid making that mistake.

[nyantler]

Well, that's a nice thought and it all sounds real good, but in reality, there will be people who are absolutely convinced that what they are seeing is a legal deer. And that later turns out to be a mistake. And anyone who claims that they never make mistakes .... well .... what can I say about that .....lol. In terms of the law, there probably is not one ECO that would let you off with that excuse whether it was true or not. It's kind of like having a faulty speedometer. You may believe you were within the speed limit, but that will never get you out of a ticket. But you did make a mistake. I'm sure somebody could say that you should have had that speedometer checked that morning to avoid making that mistake.

Well I guess those hunters that want to hunt that close to the minimum and can't tell a 4-point from a 5 or 6-point better be a bit more careful... and a speedometer doesn't have the ability to choose.. people do... you can't equate the failure of a machine to the irresposible attitude of a person.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You're not listening. I am not saying that AR should automatically be rejected because mistakes will be made. I am simply agreeing with those that have been saying that mistakes will be made. And there is no doubt in my mind that a large percentage of those deer that wind up laying in the woods will indeed be honest mistakes.

And yes, I'll bet some spikes that wind up rotting in the woods are because of people who thought those 2-1/2" spikes were really 3". And that could easily mean that they really thought they looked like they were 3" or bigger. And yes, an ECO would not cut anybody any slack over that, but that still doesn't mean that the guy didn't truly believe they were 3" and maybe even thought they were even much bigger. The main reason that so few of them are left probably has more to do with the fact that they can put them on an antlerless permit instead of running away from the mistake. In fact it is likely that a lot of spikes are shot because they were mistakenly thought to be does.

Bigger fanny pack to fit the tie iron in...problem solved...lol. Just kidding!!

[Doewhacker]

Bigger fanny pack to fit the tie iron in...problem solved...lol. Just kidding!!

I hunt near dry creek beds, no need for a tire iron...lol also kidding!

[BornToHunt]

How about this if you think the antlers are too small and you don't have a DMP tag dont shoot. It not brain surgery people. I have been hunting for over 20 years and have never made that mistake. If you do make a mistake like that then you probably have no business being in the woods with a gun. You are the irresposible hunters that end up shooting other people. And thats all i have to say about that.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

How about this if you think the antlers are too small and you don't have a DMP tag dont shoot. It not brain surgery people.

And there in lies the issue for some. there is a category of buck that can't be tagges with either tag. (Kind of the point of the regulation but also the tiger trap). In the current regulation structure if you have a buck tag and a DMP all you have to woory about is making a good and safe shot. If it is over 3" you have it covered...if it is under 3" you have it covvered too. In AR areas now you have to worry about counting points.

I hated to bring this up but I have been thinking about it all through this thread. I know I will get flamed but I am not saying it is true....just wondering. Could we possibly be making it less safe for some hunters out ther with this AR requirement. Are we asking hunters to spend more time trying to determine a point count that we are on making a safe shot or even determining if to shoot at all. Could they be so focused on the point count that they mis other safety cues?

Edited September 24, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Guns&ReligionCop]

How about this if you think the antlers are too small and you don't have a DMP tag dont shoot. It not brain surgery people. I have been hunting for over 20 years and have never made that mistake. If you do make a mistake like that then you probably have no business being in the woods with a gun. You are the irresposible hunters that end up shooting other people. And thats all i have to say about that.

I can't wait to see the fire storm this comment sets off. That being said I agree a 100 %

[burmjohn]

I can't wait to see the fire storm this comment sets off. That being said I agree a 100 %

It shouldn't because its the truth.