Who wants Yearling Buck Protection with ARs in their area?

[Five Seasons]

Don't read into too much the fact it only had 5 point or that it was poor genetics. Worrying about genetics is pointless. I've shot enough 1.5 y.o. bucks in my time to know that 150lbs is not all that uncommon in 8F, 8H, 8G, etc. There's so much science and at the same time, stuff we don't know that goes into antler development, body development, etc. Worry about what you can control, your trigger finger. Stop shooting 5 points (unless that makes you happy, which is A-OK) and baskets. Seems to be those baskets were one year (maybe two) off from being a potential wall hanger, no? Your neighbors didn't shoot them.

everything you say is true. I suppose I should mention, that while I've been hunting for 13 years, only 5 of those have been with bow. I have not really put the "big 6 point" self imposed rule on myself until last year, and then given circumstances i scrapped it this year haha. However, all those deer were bow and the neighbors only hunt with a gun (and someday a crossbow ) so who's to say they wouldn't have?

wny,

your buddies deer poses an issue. So maybe beyond the ears qualifies? But then there's a real nice thick 2.5 year old basket 8 who wouldn't qualify. So now you're asking hunters to count points which really isn't fair and can be difficult with the adrenaline pumping. I mean... we still have people shooting other hunters for God's sakes.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Belo

[phade]

everything you say is true. I suppose I should mention, that while I've been hunting for 13 years, only 5 of those have been with bow. I have not really put the "big 6 point" self imposed rule on myself until last year, and then given circumstances i scrapped it this year haha. However, all those deer were bow and the neighbors only hunt with a gun (and someday a crossbow ) so who's to say they wouldn't have?

wny,

your buddies deer poses an issue. So maybe beyond the ears qualifies? But then there's a real nice thick 2.5 year old basket 8 who wouldn't qualify. So now you're asking hunters to count points which really isn't fair and can be difficult with the adrenaline pumping. I mean... we still have people shooting other hunters for God's sakes.

Worry about what YOU and your Pops can do to kill those nice bucks.

If we put a 4pt side on, this guy would have lived, too (back wall buck). 8H buck. He was a 3.5.

[Five Seasons]

you leave your tags on your mounts?

[WNYBuckHunter]

wny,

your buddies deer poses an issue. So maybe beyond the ears qualifies? But then there's a real nice thick 2.5 year old basket 8 who wouldn't qualify. So now you're asking hunters to count points which really isn't fair and can be difficult with the adrenaline pumping. I mean... we still have people shooting other hunters for God's sakes.

Yepper.

[phade]

you leave your tags on your mounts?

No, that was just this year's NY bow buck. I got it back recently and had just hung it.

[JFB]

Anyone who pays for a license and tags can shoot what they choose, as long as its legal

I sometimes wonder if people would throw grenades at night over bait piles if it were legal?

Again, it's all relative. If you hunt in an area with few deer, I completely understand shooting a young deer that might be at a premium. Or if you are inexperienced I again see shooting younger deer. But if you hunt places with a healthy heard, get outside your box and challenge yourself. You may be surprised by what you are capable of. I witness people hunting property next to me who must shoot at everything they see and yes they are slobs for a multitude of reasons. That says nothing about me Phade other than I'm intelligent enough to identify people who trespass and hold no values for humane hunting, etc etc. Let's not pretend a bigger percentage of the "brown it's down" guys don't fall into the slob category that we all complain about. I didn't say if you shoot a spike you are a slob. But I am saying that they guys who just roll out and shoot at every living thing more often are slobs than anyone else in my opinion and experience.

[phade]

I sometimes wonder if people would throw grenades at night over bait piles if it were legal?

Again, it's all relative. If you hunt in an area with few deer, I completely understand shooting a young deer that might be at a premium. Or if you are inexperienced I again see shooting younger deer. But if you hunt places with a healthy heard, get outside your box and challenge yourself. You may be surprised by what you are capable of. I witness people hunting property next to me who must shoot at everything they see and yes they are slobs for a multitude of reasons. That says nothing about me Phade other than I'm intelligent enough to identify people who trespass and hold no values for humane hunting, etc etc. Let's not pretend a bigger percentage of the "brown it's down" guys don't fall into the slob category that we all complain about. I didn't say if you shoot a spike you are a slob. But I am saying that they guys who just roll out and shoot at every living thing more often are slobs than anyone else in my opinion and experience.

Again, you are taking a long jump off of a short bridge. Bringing up trespassing, holding no values, etc. and calling them slobs. What does trespassing have a thing to do with the definition of a legal buck? Worse yet, what in God's green creation would cause these people who tresspass, to follow AR laws...they're breaking one law already.

There's a big difference between slobs, "brown its down" crowd, and recreational hunters/weekend warriors/opening day only Elmer Fudds.

A decision to shoot a legal deer, legally, is not a slob hunter. You pretty much are saying that hunters who do shoot young deer are slobs, despite your contesting it.

Might want to bring a few Kleenex with you up there, nose bleeds are common on a high horse.

Edited January 14, 2013 by phade

[agross]

I all for it in area 7P.

[JFB]

No thanks Phade, I don't need you to tell me what my own words or writings mean and spinning things doesn't change it.

[phade]

No thanks Phade, I don't need you to tell me what my own words or writings mean and spinning things doesn't change it.

No problem. Your words do it for you.

Edited January 14, 2013 by phade

[Five Seasons]

I know some guys who only shoot doe and never see bucks. Primarily they shoot the first deer they see. This year and countless other times I have not shot the doe and had the buck follow. Same can be said for passing on the smaller bucks. Tag out early with the 6 point and you may never know what may have come your way.

I agree that you have to challenge yourself or you might never see the big guy.

[growalot]

Here we go with the whole looking down the nose thing...Wow where's that Ego pin when you need it...

I'm very fortunate in the fact I feel comfortable enough to hold out on older deer and have more than enough doe tags for the entire family...but not every ones that fortunate...I watch my Dad in-law ...who is caring for a very ill wife full time and has bad arthritis....he loves to hunt and downing a buck...and yes at this point in his life...any buck with visible points is a thrill for him...he's payed his dues along with the friends he has come down to hunt with him ..........by the way they hunt in a low doe permit area......Do I want to see bigger more buck at camp...yes...but not at the expense of the enjoyment these older men get....... and the real effort I see it takes just to get out into the woods.....

In stead of looking down your nose at ppl and having the me me me me attitude...Perhaps you should look past your nose and fit your foot into the shoe of another person for a day

Edited January 14, 2013 by growalot

[phade]

Here we go with the whole looking down the nose thing...Wow where's that Ego pin when you need it...

I'm very fortunate in the fact I feel comfortable enough to hold out on older deer and have more than enough doe tags for the entire family...but not every ones that fortunate...I watch my Dad in-law ...who is caring for a very ill wife full time and has bad arthritis....he loves to hunt and downing a buck...and yes at this point in his life...any buck with visible points is a thrill for him...he's payed his dues along with the friends he has come down to hunt with him ..........by the way they hunt in a low doe permit area......Do I want to see bigger more buck at camp...yes...but not at the expense of the enjoyment these older men get....... and the real effort I see it takes just to get out into the woods.....

In stead of looking down your nose at ppl and having the me me me me attitude...Perhaps you should look past your nose and fit your foot into the shoe of another person for a day

I think everyone knows someone like that. My FIL is such a person.

[Five Seasons]

who is looking down their nose? who is claiming to be holier than thou? Your "dad in-law" will eventually see those smaller deer become bigger deer and statistically he may have increased chances of seeing a bigger buck. Just as I have argued with xbows, i'm in favor for handicap/elderly and in the case of AR, youth being held to different standards.

i suggest everyone spend a little time reading and the report helps you analyze the statistics, but if you'd only like to glance, go to page 7 and see how as yearling kills decreased over 3 years, mature buck kills increased. That is simple fact that requires no degree to understand.

http://www.qdma.com/uploads/pdf/WR2012.pdf

[covert]

Here one big problem I see with the whole AR thing. Reading opinions it always seems like most (not necessarily all) of the pro-AR guys with the "wait for the buck of your dreams" and "slob" this and "lazy" that, "no challenge" type comments. Then you read most (again, not necessarily all) of the against-AR opinions and they are more like "leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" and "who are you to say what is the buck of my dreams?"

A lot of you pro-AR guys would be better served to take a tack like WNYBuckhunter and NYAntler and try to "educate" people and bring them to your side that way. It doesn't matter how good your argument might be, as soon as someone sees "lazy", "slob" or those type of derogatory statement it shuts them right down. This doesn't just apply to this though; I see it a lot in the crossbow arguments too. You aren't doing your cause any justice when you move into name-calling.

[phade]

who is looking down their nose? who is claiming to be holier than thou? Your "dad in-law" will eventually see those smaller deer become bigger deer and statistically he may have increased chances of seeing a bigger buck. Just as I have argued with xbows, i'm in favor for handicap/elderly and in the case of AR, youth being held to different standards.

i suggest everyone spend a little time reading and the report helps you analyze the statistics, but if you'd only like to glance, go to page 7 and see how as yearling kills decreased over 3 years, mature buck kills increased. That is simple fact that requires no degree to understand.

http://www.qdma.com/.../pdf/WR2012.pdf

You are not getting it. Any buck is a trophy to them, and to many people.

[Five Seasons]

Here one big problem I see with the whole AR thing. Reading opinions it always seems like most (not necessarily all) of the pro-AR guys with the "wait for the buck of your dreams" and "slob" this and "lazy" that, "no challenge" type comments. Then you read most (again, not necessarily all) of the against-AR opinions and they are more like "leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" and "who are you to say what is the buck of my dreams?"

A lot of you pro-AR guys would be better served to take a tack like WNYBuckhunter and NYAntler and try to "educate" people and bring them to your side that way. It doesn't matter how good your argument might be, as soon as someone sees "lazy", "slob" or those type of derogatory statement it shuts them right down. This doesn't just apply to this though; I see it a lot in the crossbow arguments too. You aren't doing your cause any justice when you move into name-calling.

i hope that wasn't directed at me because you cant quote me as saying that in this thread. In the crossbows threads however...

You are not getting it. Any buck is a trophy to them, and to many people.

i refuse to believe that someone who has hunted their whole life sees a trophy in a spike horn. My grandfather of 82 with cancer is still in the woods and will shoot that spike and he has every right too. But it doesn't go on his wall with the other 7. But again, if you didn't read my whole post, I am accepting of different standards for youth, elderly and handicapped. and in addition, statistically in time chances are that 1.5 is now a 2.5 or 3.5 year old instead.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Belo

[covert]

Actually I was typing while you posted the one preceeding mine. I was speaking generally, not to anyone in particular.

[JFB]

My 77 yr old father, who was raised to shoot as soon as he saw antler, passed up several deer only to eventually tag a buck that will score over 125". He had his hip replaced in September and I can tell you he was pleased as pie to hold out for the bigger deer and then bag a big one. If he chose to have shot a spike, I would have congratulated that as well given his age and circumstances. Just goes to show you it's possible to get new enjoyment out of something other than the same old thing. Many years ago, he would have shot the first button buck that ran by simply because he was conditioned to do so. A little education and he has changed as a hunter and seems to enjoy it more. He sure sends a lot more photos to his friends than he used to anyway.

[A Sportsman]

Just wanted to say thanks to Phade and some of the other NON-AR people on here for continuing to have the energy to argue against the Pro AR Meat Hunter and the rest of them. This guy meat hunter is relentless....With all that is going on with respect to gun control right now, its really sad that hunters are still beating the snot out of this topic.

If someone else shoots a small buck, who gives a &*^%? So what? there's one less for you. Get over it. Better yet, congratulate the guy. Life is too darn shoot to worry about it. Just go hunt and enjoy what you do. If you don;t like where you are, move. There is tons of opportunity in this state. Control your own destiny. Go make it happen. Still not happy, try harder.

Im really beginining to think these outspoken AR people are just another product of the instant gratification, ME-society we are living in. Scares me man.

[reeltime]

I am in agreement with those that have the stance of education vs antler restrictions state wide. I grew up in Pa. have hunted there every year since 1977. as most know there is an AR state wide with 2 different AR's. 3 points to a side and in the western part of the state a "3 up" rule. 3 up is you can not count a brow tine it has to have 3 points up top this includes the main beam so it can have 2 points up and the main bean can be broke at the 2nd point and its still a legal deer.

with the implementation of AR's also came herd reduction (HR) which meant more antlerless tags,,,, well one thing is for certain in area's of Pa the hunters have decimated the deer herd! most state lands, national forest are almost void of deer, why? because hunters don't have to ask anyone to hunt there they can just park and go hunting thus "public" land gets tons of pressure.

are there bigger bucks in Pa now? yes. are there more deer than 20 years ago? not by a long shot! is everyone happy? absolutely NOT!!

if NY follows Pa's lead with AR & HR you can be rest assured that deer hunting as you know it today will not be the same. people that hunt for meat that don't want to hold out for a AR legal buck is probably going to shoot the first "antlerless" deer that walks by them. today they may be setting there with 2 antlerless tags in their pocket but when they shoot that 1.5 yo 4,6, or basket 8 they are done for the year. if they shoot a this years fawn they likely will go back to get another deer to get their meat quota so instead of shooting 1 deer and being done they are shooting 2 antlerless deer.

a few things that I have seen with the current PA program.

-far fewer deer seen per stand set, spotting, scouting.

-with fewer deer overall and still a high number of antlerless tags the button buck kill is VERY high. tough to have big bucks when they are in someones freezer before they are 8 months old!

-LOTS of posted signs going up, and more every year. when I was growing up there I'd bet you coulda counted on both hands the number of "posted" properties in our entire COUNTY. now you couldn't drive a 5 mile circle and find less than 10 parcels that are posted.

-Greed, its unreal the me me me thinking of a lot of people! if they see a deer its gotta be killed. laws and common sense be danged they have 1 mission to kill that deer even with doe's. the well if I don't kill that small buck someone else will.... the only certain thing is if you kill it its DEAD it doesn't get a chance to survive the season.

-Poaching, the number of poachings has increased, especially on bucks. Until they make it a deterrant financially its not going to stop. it would suit me just fine if the fine for killing a doe illegally was $5,000.00 and for a buck $100.00 per inch of antler! these measly fines they have today is noo deterrant to a poacher. also a 5yr license loss 1st offense and a lifetime loss on a second offense or for multiple kills when caught.

-dissention between hunting groups, meaning those for AR and those opposed, there has not been ANYTHING related to hunting in the state of PA that has divided more hunters than the AR implementation. its a sad state of affairs honestly and I am sure the anti's are eating it up! remember the old saying united we stand divided we fall........ hunting is a priveledge not a right... it an be taken away and sooner or later the anti's numbers will be greater than the hunters numbers.

-along the same lines is the decrease in hunter numbers for deer, people are fed up with not seeing deer, loosing spots to hunt, hunting on crowded state game lands etc. also youngter recruitment is down and getting worse, kids today are so different than when I was of hunting age, and coupled with lack of deer sightings intrest is lost fast with them. when I started hunting at age 11 there were only 2 kids in my entire grade that DIDN'T hunt, today in some places you would be lucky to find 2 kids that DID hunt.

so to sum up my thoughts on this.....whats the answer? I honestly don't know. I do know that no matter the decision people on on side or the other is not going to be happy. hunter dissention and jealousy is already an issue around here and that needs adressing before all the other stuff. we are all in one of the biggest fraternities in the US.... the hunting fraternity, the biggest problem is we are our own worst enemy at times.

I do know that if we want to hunt in the future we need to do something to get kids involved, without new recruitments all these other debates will be a moot point because there will be no more hunting. for those that think that will never happen,,, it has, is and most certainly CAN happen.

[wheelieman]

Ok im Pro- AR, I'm also pro hard work, They best part of shooting a mature deer is knowing you went head to head with a master and came out on top, Now That being said i generally try and shoot the largest bucks i have on trail cam if i cant shoot one of them i wont shoot a buck, Ill just tag a doe unless some thing else moves into the area during the rut, As far as restrictions on points per side its hard to do, I'm thinking spread is maybe a little bit better of an idea but even then what do you do with 3 year old spike horns, That's why i'm in total favor of an earn a buck program, By taking the time to harvest a doe you can get an idea of whats roaming your hunting spot, That by itself might be enough to allow most hunters to pass on the little 4 pnts or sixes because they have seen a bigger deer, or at least hold off for a while and maybe an older aged deer will present a shot, As far as being an antler hunter i'm guilty as charged but i can say with bigger antlers comes bigger deer, bigger deer means more meat, And I will have a nice mount on the wall to brag about, And yes i like doing that,

[Five Seasons]

reeltime,

I appreciate your experience with ARs in PA, and I cannot speak from your viewpoint. But you mention the good ol' days and property that wasn't posted etc. I'm sorry but that has absolutely nothing to do with ARs in your state. That is common across the country and is the result of private land disappearing, more hunters, less farms and lawyers.

Secondly, your bucks per square mile is 3rd in the northeast and your total buck take has increased from 2008. In addition the 5th highest take of antlerless deer in the country. And if it's really all just about meat... isn't that all that matters?

Finally, I do not see a lot of dissension among hunters on this topic. We may stand on separate sides of the fence and a few people on each side take it to far but I think this is more a matter of philosophy and hunting style that some people disagree on. I do not see this as something the anti's cheer for as many QDM states have seen license sales increase since 2008. I see that may not be the case in PA but with any of these statements or statistics you have to realize there are many variables in play. I doubt it was any one thing that caused license sales to drop in PA. I was blown away at pictures of some of the deer I saw shot there this year on a coworkers phone.

I love the "if you don't like it move" argument. We should all do that in NY now that they're infringing on our second amendment rights. Why should we ever stand up for what we believe in or lobby for what we feel will benefit our sport?

[covert]

The way I read it Belo was that the increase in antler size led to the increased Posting of the private land.

As far as the moving goes I am doing my research now and plan to beat feet ASAP. I was right on the edge anyway with the tax situation and recent events have tipped me over into the GTHO column.

[coonhunter]

I just think deer hunters as a group are just too different to make everyone happy. I am simple to please as I mind my own business and hunt the way I like. I don't worry about what others shoot. I don't have a fit if someone comes walking through my hunting area because I don't own the land. All I need is a property to hunt, and I will consistantly shoot mature bucks if they are in the area. Are they all wall hangers? Not by a long shot. But, they have been through a few hunting seasons, and are usually tougher to get close to.

I hear all the time that when I let the young bucks walk someone else will get them. So what. It is my choice, and how I enjoy my deer hunting. Funny how on this site you have guys that can show you the same bucks on trail cams year to year, so they don't all get shot.

On the other side of the coin, I have friends that have very limited vacation time, or none left at all. They have just as much fun shooting the first buck they see. They are not striving to shoot the biggest buck. They are looking to fill their tag in the short time they have to get venison in the freezer. I congratulate them and gladly help them eat some fresh back straps.

My overall opinion is live and let live. There are tons of deer in this state, and any deer that is legally taken, is making good use of nature's bounty. I would like it to be one buck only no matter how it is harvested. I hunt 4f and 7m and some years I have to settle for a couple does. I have been fortunate to harvest a nice buck most years as I have improved as a hunter, but it is good hunting land and a pretty long walk to get to my spots which helps a lot.