Who wants Yearling Buck Protection with ARs in their area?

[SteveB]

I wish hunters would just be honest.

So do I.

A good number of the pro AR's say it is because they want to have more mature bucks in the herd and for them to pursue.

Fact is many/most of them are will take a 2.5 or 3.5 with the right number of points instead of targeting actual mature bucks.

If honest, they would admit that what they want are a little bigger set of antlers, but not enough to wait for an actual mature buck.

AR will no doubt result in some increase of 2.5's and 3.5's.

But as long as these are the accepted target, the number of actual mature 4.5's + will be minimal at best.

[nyantler]

So do I.

A good number of the pro AR's say it is because they want to have more mature bucks in the herd and for them to pursue.

Fact is many/most of them are will take a 2.5 or 3.5 with the right number of points instead of targeting actual mature bucks.

If honest, they would admit that what they want are a little bigger set of antlers, but not enough to wait for an actual mature buck.

AR will no doubt result in some increase of 2.5's and 3.5's.

But as long as these are the accepted target, the number of actual mature 4.5's + will be minimal at best.

I agree.. I think that is to be expected with only a 3 on a side rule which is minimal for some yearling buck protection... but really doesn't stretch the age classes much beyond 3.5... baby steps at this point... much higher restrictions would have to be in place to get a substantial number of very mature bucks which I think is not realistic in NY given current hunter interest in AR's.

[nyantler]

Why are they bending?? Because they act like cry babies, crying how they don't get to see big bucks since everyone is shooting off the yearlings. So to soothe their tears the DEC gives them AR's as a pacifier, just as you would to a crying baby. That's pretty much all there is to it.

Yeah thats it... lol.. if the rules were made based on the loudest crying then you and doewhacker wouldn't have to worry about any AR's in NY... you'd win hands down.

They don't have to cry they are doing their homework and coming to the table with real facts for the DEC to look at... not spouting nonsense about stuff they don't know about. Haven't seen you fellas doing much in the way of producing any hard evidence against it... except using statements used by the very DEC people that are quickly being swayed towards AR's.

Edited January 18, 2013 by nyantler

[yukonhunter]

I would live it. 9m

[Ford]

7m, and I would give it a whirl.

I was against it, before I was for it. The only basis I use on that, is reports of better bucks in the area. From some friends of mine in AR areas, and reports on this site. It would not break me, I can always take a doe, or muzzy season..

[Doc]

I dont get what there is to fight over, the OP was just asking who wants it...

Lol .... That is just the natural progress of any AR discussion. We have hundreds of pages on the subject over the years, and this is just a re-hash of the same stuff. It all could be done with simple copy and paste activity. But that's ok. Everyday we have new members, and this is how they all get updated on all the controversy. So, these guys are answering the question and supplying a "why" component to their answer. It's all good. Pretty calm stuff so far .... lol.

[erussell]

7s needs it bad. This yr in the kirkwood area I hunt I saw zero bucks on 200 acres that was loaded with acorns. I got 2 little scrub bucks on camera back in Sept but nothing after. I heard but cannot confirm that both were shot first day of gun on neighboring farm.

[Doc]

7s needs it bad. This yr in the kirkwood area I hunt I saw zero bucks on 200 acres that was loaded with acorns. I got 2 little scrub bucks on camera back in Sept but nothing after. I heard but cannot confirm that both were shot first day of gun on neighboring farm.

Sounds like you have a much bigger problem than a simple lack of AR. There is something weird with your population if you don't have any bucks.

[Doewhacker]

Yeah thats it... lol.. if the rules were made based on the loudest crying then you and doewhacker wouldn't have to worry about any AR's in NY... you'd win hands down.

They don't have to cry they are doing their homework and coming to the table with real facts for the DEC to look at... not spouting nonsense about stuff they don't know about. Haven't seen you fellas doing much in the way of producing any hard evidence against it... except using statements used by the very DEC people that are quickly being swayed towards AR's.

Haha. Listen this really all has been covered before and there are no new developments. It is a social issue, simple as that.

In case any one doesn't know nyantler is an opinionated construction guy, not a biologist he thinks he is. Lol I know Joe you have "studied" white tails, me too, every year I read your info here and go hunting. Lol

[phade]

Yeah thats it... lol.. if the rules were made based on the loudest crying then you and doewhacker wouldn't have to worry about any AR's in NY... you'd win hands down.

They don't have to cry they are doing their homework and coming to the table with real facts for the DEC to look at... not spouting nonsense about stuff they don't know about. Haven't seen you fellas doing much in the way of producing any hard evidence against it... except using statements used by the very DEC people that are quickly being swayed towards AR's.

Joe -

Jeremy and I have discussed this stuff on many levels and still do.

AR is only being implemented based on hunter desire at this point - it has zero to do with a biological impact on the herd. The DEC is attempting to balance hunter desire into the equation as a way to keep license numbers up/grow/etc. The only way AR is going into a WMU is when the populous in that wmu want it overwhelmingly. The expanded counties were ones that actively demonstrated a desire for it. One WMU, I forget which, was up for AR, but the % of hunter desire for it was not highe enough to mandate AR.

And, that is documented, too. All of these quotes are available in the five year management plan, too. But, he's been pretty clear with me that AR is not the way to go as far as mandating goes, and that the ONLY reason for it is hunter desire at this point.

I'm not really sure where you are trying to say the DEC is changing positions on this, especially when it is in their current plan. It is not and has not changed.

Edited January 18, 2013 by phade

[Five Seasons]

Belo ...you having to ask..... does not surprise me...there is a difference to reading about and seeing the pics posted from across this state of buck taken yearly ...and reading in a magazine ones opinion on what everyone else should or should not be doing as far as hunting their particular area...

One shows facts in real results and the other is hypothesis ..see making me pull out the dictionary again...You really need to get out in the woods more.....

hy·poth·e·sis

noun \hī-ˈpä-thə-səs\

plural hy·poth·e·ses

Definition of HYPOTHESIS

1

a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument

b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action

2

: a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences

3

: the antecedent clause of a conditional statement

See hypothesis defined for English-language learners »

See hypothesis defined for kids »

congratulations you can copy and paste. My point is that your 10, 20 or even 100 acres you hunt is not a relative sample size. I made this same argument with reeltree earlier in the thread. Your own personal experience does not equal reality across the state or even in your own WMU. I've moved trail cams 1 tree over and had 10x as many pictures. I've had tracks in front of cameras and no pictures. I knew a guy that put his trailcam 6' in the air and wondered why he never got any pictures. I'm not stating you're doing things wrong with your scouting, I'm simply saying that the State's DEC's research performed by professionals in their field is "the best" we have to go by. And research and data are in favor of ARs. Lets say we see 50 real monsters taken in this state. Of 200k hunters, is that really a good ratio? I don't know... I'm asking the question. To me it's not so much about the NYS Top 10, it's how many real nice 2.5 year olds are taken? Another question. Would you rather shoot 1.5 year old bucks 8 years in a row and then land a mounter? Or shoot a nice respectable 8 every other year?

[growalot]

I would not want to kill a mounter as you call it every year...and sorry your definition of "a nice respectable 8" is different than mine...

What would be the point of going hunting if I knew I could do that every year?...Many years ago we went to a restaurant and had a $200.00 meal ....It was the best dinning experience the 2 of us have ever had and the memories have stayed with us ever since.

Now if I were a Trump and could do that every week ... what would be the enjoyment in that?...it would end up being the equivalent of a good fish fry every Friday

Now to the copy and paste...Thanks I can and you should be thankful for the help

I wasn't speaking of just my acres...I'm addressing the thousands of acres that ppl across the state are now improving ....with or with out QDM...big difference there

You can throw out the # 50 as that of big buck taken ...but we both know that's bogus ...your not naive enough to think every hunter that gets a big buck send pics into ODN or posts on the web do you? We have huge deer taken around here every year and they are never posted....not one of the big deer ever taken at camp over the years have been posted.....I've seen WNYBH...deer and all the huge sheds he finds....Do you think every big buck in his area hits the web or paper....lets not even go to the #'s of huge buck killed on the road each year and racks cut and carried off

You may think the DEC research is the "best" we have to go by but ....I've seen their best played out over the years in the handling of DMP's....Talk to me about the DEC when they pull their heads out of what ever political back side they are in at any given time....

(sp)

Edited January 18, 2013 by growalot

[SteveB]

it's how many real nice 2.5 year olds are taken?

If hunters are shooting 2.5's instead of 1.5's, what is gained? Still young bucks and far from maturity.

Would you rather shoot 1.5 year old bucks 8 years in a row and then land a mounter?

Is it a mounter at 2.5 and still immature?

If 2.5's and 3.5's are the goal, there are 100's of them posted every year in NY Outdoor News.

And I bet only a small % get sent to them.

[Five Seasons]

If hunters are shooting 2.5's instead of 1.5's, what is gained? Still young bucks and far from maturity.

Is it a mounter at 2.5 and still immature?

If 2.5's and 3.5's are the goal, there are 100's of them posted every year in NY Outdoor News.

And I bet only a small % get sent to them.

and that's my point. Is 100's out of all the hunters in NYS a good number? I don't know, i'm asking the question. An old mature buck is a 3.5 or 4.5 year old. There are not as many in NY as there are in other states. Asking hunter to pass on nice healthy 2.5 year old is where i personally draw the line. If we go too far noboby shoots anything and that's not the goal. A 2.5 year old is generally a nice shooter buck (i understand by my standards, but others it may not be). We're still arguing over who is anyone to tell another hunter what he or she can shoot? I bet this argument was rampant when seasons were originally put into place. Many hunters then hunted for food, now they're being told when and how many they can shoot. I only view ARs as the next evolution of the sport.

[jjb4900]

and that's my point. Is 100's out of all the hunters in NYS a good number? I don't know, i'm asking the question. An old mature buck is a 3.5 or 4.5 year old. There are not as many in NY as there are in other states. Asking hunter to pass on nice healthy 2.5 year old is where i personally draw the line. If we go too far noboby shoots anything and that's not the goal. A 2.5 year old is generally a nice shooter buck (i understand by my standards, but others it may not be). We're still arguing over who is anyone to tell another hunter what he or she can shoot? I bet this argument was rampant when seasons were originally put into place. Many hunters then hunted for food, now they're being told when and how many they can shoot. I only view ARs as the next evolution of the sport.

evolution or downfall? that's my question........my season consisted of me being forced to pass on three separate buck's that either didn't meet the criteria or that I couldn't be sure if they did or didn't, all were at least 4pts and I would have been happy taking any of them. The last week of late muzzleloader I shot a button buck, so luckily I was able to find a way around the AR's and put some venison in the freezer.........was I wrong for doing so? either way a buck was taken from the herd, does it really matter if it was one of the larger bucks or that button?

[Five Seasons]

evolution or downfall? that's my question........my season consisted of me being forced to pass on three separate buck's that either didn't meet the criteria or that I couldn't be sure if they did or didn't, all were at least 4pts and I would have been happy taking any of them. The last week of late muzzleloader I shot a button buck, so luckily I was able to find a way around the AR's and put some venison in the freezer.........was I wrong for doing so? either way a buck was taken from the herd, does it really matter if it was one of the larger bucks or that button?

no doe? how many hours in the woods?

[jjb4900]

first off, let me say I know I wasn't wrong making the choice I made....gave my doe tag to a nephew who didn't get one and probably spent a 60 hours hunting between bow,rifle and muzzleloader.......the time spent hunting in no way played a part in my decision, I am 100% anti antler restriction and would have filled my tag with the same deer the first day if the desire struck me.

[Five Seasons]

you didn't answer my question. You claimed the ARs hurt your season and that you were lucky to get a bb late. I'm assuming you're a meat hunter first and foremost as am I. So did you pass on doe or just not see any? if you chose to sign your tag over that's your decision, but I dont want to hear that you couldn't get a deer because of ARs. Maybe next year one that you passed on will be a nice shooter buck. If it was late season and i needed to fill my freezer i'd take a nice taking 120lb doe anyday over a bb or a scrub buck. Good luck.

[Doc]

The last week of late muzzleloader I shot a button buck, so luckily I was able to find a way around the AR's and put some venison in the freezer.........was I wrong for doing so?

You shot a legal deer. How could that be wrong?

[jjb4900]

You shot a legal deer. How could that be wrong?

thanks for seeing it that way.......I should never have thrown that rhetorical question into my earlier post because now I'm being asked to break down my hunting season into hours hunted, deer sightings, etc., so they can analyze it and answer my question...LOL.

Edited January 18, 2013 by jjb4900

[Five Seasons]

thanks for seeing it that way.......I should never have thrown that rhetorical question into my earlier post because now I'm being asked to break down my hunting season into hours hunted, deer sightings, etc., so they can analyze it and answer my question...LOL.

that's the argument though from anti-AR. I never see any deer, you cant stop me from shooting the few deer I do see. My standards are not yours etc etc. Nothing you did was illegal and nobody said it was. I wouldn't have shot the BB, but that's my choice. The discussion was... should it no longer be legal? And if ARs were in place state wide would it help or hurt whitetail hunting? That's the debate.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Belo

[phade]

Statewide ar. Gag. About as well designed as the safe act imo.

[jjb4900]

that's the argument though from anti-AR. I never see any deer, you cant stop me from shooting the few deer I do see. My standards are not yours etc etc. Nothing you did was illegal and nobody said it was. I wouldn't have shot the BB, but that's my choice. The discussion was... should it no longer be legal? And if ARs were in place state wide would it help or hurt whitetail hunting? That's the debate.

should what not be legal, the taking of BB's? I for one would have no problem having to use my buck tag on a BB if I happen to take one accidentally or intentionally, my tag allows me a buck and if that's how the chip's fall, I'll put my buck tag on it. As far as whether statewide AR's would help or hurt deer hunting, I don't think it makes much of an impact either way.......although if I really had to give an opinion on it, I'd go with hurt it to a minimal degree. I can't see someone giving up because they can shoot what they choose, but can maybe see a few throwing in the towel if the AR's prevent them from getting a deer for a few years. I assumed when you asked if AR's would hurt or help deer hunting you were referring to hunter participation / satisfaction.

[16. ga hunter]

belo you need to stop hiding behind the ar curtain and admit that you will shoot any damn deer that comes infront of you ....." I have never made any attempt to hide the fact that i'm a horn hunter. So long as I have some venison in the freezer,"....." i know it seems hypocritical but i couldn't be picky this year with the birth of my son. He was still a nice 150lb. deer. And 15 seconds later out stepped a big 9" this agrivates me more than ar's themselves people who push them because they can not control themselves while hunting. it goes back to nyantlers remarks of people talking the talk but not walking the walk. if you want to shoot big deer do it don't shoot the little ones weather you have meat in the freezer or not. your "young and financally successfull" your family won't die if you don't take a deer. your pride will most certainly take a hit though seeing your this great white hunter who will harp on others for things you do yourself. i'm glad you harvested your buck just as im gald for everyones deer harvests this year . but do yourself a favor and admit you took that deer because you wanted too not because of the birth of your son but because you wanted to shoot that deer. the same as i wanted to shoot my deer. that simple it will give you more credability with many on the board i would presume......

[16. ga hunter]

and as far as ar's go in general if they were to go state wide i would deal with it it would affect where i buck hunted but it could be done. the one area i hunt has many nice bucks every buck i have seen in the last 2 years would have made the ar grade unfortunatly the ar grade would not have protected many 1.5s in this area though.