Another Mass Shooting...upstate NY this time.

[ants]

no not tasers. how much tear gas was pumped into the room before they entered? flash bangs? robot on site. was the room evaluated first? or did they send the dog in to be killed and while the dirt bag was preoccupied with the dog did they take him out? he was pinned in for what 12 to 14 hours why didnt they leave him there for 24, 48, or however long it took to save the dog and get the motive answers that are missing in every single one of these cases? am i upset he was taken out ? no. but without motives the true violence problems cant be addressed, and we get the shaft both gun owners and victims alike.

Tear gas was used. It doesn't always work, and in this case it didn't. I think a robot was on scene but, despite what people see on TV these things can't go everywhere and can't find people who are hiding.  If there are several locked doors in the building , the robot won't get through them and it is anyones guess where the suspect is. Sooner or later you have to go in. You can't go in tossing flash bangs into every room in the place, not knowing where the suspect is or if anyone else ins in the building. 

Some times you just have to go, especially when no contact has been made with the person.

[bowaholic]

no not tasers. how much tear gas was pumped into the room before they entered? flash bangs? robot on site. was the room evaluated first? or did they send the dog in to be killed and while the dirt bag was preoccupied with the dog did they take him out? he was pinned in for what 12 to 14 hours why didnt they leave him there for 24, 48, or however long it took to save the dog and get the motive answers that are missing in every single one of these cases? am i upset he was taken out ? no. but without motives the true violence problems cant be addressed, and we get the shaft both gun owners and victims alike.

 tuckersdaddy...The police would never use a dog for bait like that! I know 2 K-9 handlers and their dogs arent just their partner but a family member! Not to mention how expensive the dogs are to buy and maintain for the departments.  

[virgil]

covert- good for you.  I don't have any problem with concealed carry.  not sure why you seem to think i do.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

no not tasers. how much tear gas was pumped into the room before they entered? flash bangs? robot on site. was the room evaluated first? or did they send the dog in to be killed and while the dirt bag was preoccupied with the dog did they take him out? he was pinned in for what 12 to 14 hours why didnt they leave him there for 24, 48, or however long it took to save the dog and get the motive answers that are missing in every single one of these cases? am i upset he was taken out ? no. but without motives the true violence problems cant be addressed, and we get the shaft both gun owners and victims alike.

The building was vacant and in very poor condition , as are many buildings on that street. there would have been too high a risk of fire to be tossing flash bangs in there. I have seen buildings on that street burn and the buildings are against one another with wall construction that is not modern fire code. you would have been putting out a block fire is it ignited. imagine fighting that fire with an armed madman in a window.

 

[Five Seasons]

did any one else notice the pictures of the swat teams there? just about all of them had firearms that did not conform to the safe act. now how long do you think its going to be before the aclu or some other legal right org. decides to sue nys for killing the piece of crap with illeagle firearms? anyone want to start a pool on that?

 

dont be silly comparing trained law enforcement to average joe six pack. a lot of those guns are straight up illegal for any citizen, regardless of the SAFE act. Your comment is similar to calling out troops in Iraq for having full auto machine guns.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 a lot of those guns are straight up illegal for any citizen, regardless of the SAFE act.

Prior to the Safe act the pre 94 models were basically the same as the Local police depts down there and the State Troopers carried that day. Some members of the  SORT team more than likely had a full auto version.

[SteveB]

What's legal for law enforcement should be legal for all legal gun owners.

[Five Seasons]

What's legal for law enforcement should be legal for all legal gun owners.

 

really? This is a serious response? Those tasked with putting their lives on the line for public safety and expected to stop bank robbers, gang bangers and potential terrorists who often possess illegal fire power should be limited?

 

There is mandatory training and generally those on the swat team have been hand picked and extensively trained. But hey, Joe Six Pack should be able to own a full auto FAMAS or P90 too?

[SteveB]

Serious?

Yes.

[covert]

covert- good for you.  I don't have any problem with concealed carry.  not sure why you seem to think i do.

 

Maybe you don't, but the way you phrase things sometimes makes it sound like you do.

 

I'm perfectly comfortable with my ability to protect myself as well as my ability to be self reliant. I've never felt the need to carry a weapon in the course of my daily life. I'm sorry to hear that you feel so inadequate without one."

[tuckersdaddy]

dont be silly comparing trained law enforcement to average joe six pack. a lot of those guns are straight up illegal for any citizen, regardless of the SAFE act. Your comment is similar to calling out troops in Iraq for having full auto machine guns.

 

So now police aren't citizens?  Any way, the safeact has no exemptions for law enforcement. So right or wrong they are illegal, period. this will be an aclu civil rights case before all is said and done.   And when mogadishu is part of new york i'll make the same statement.

[ants]

really? This is a serious response? Those tasked with putting their lives on the line for public safety and expected to stop bank robbers, gang bangers and potential terrorists who often possess illegal fire power should be limited?

 

There is mandatory training and generally those on the swat team have been hand picked and extensively trained. But hey, Joe Six Pack should be able to own a full auto FAMAS or P90 too?

 

Who is "Joe six pack" in your world ? Its the fat, drunken idiot who shoots at everything that moves and then shoots himself, or someone else, in the foot because he is just a big greasy, beer swilling  moron...Right?

Theres not a law abiding citizen out there that is smart enough to be trained on, and properly handle  anything more than a BB gun...

[shawnhu]

What's legal for law enforcement should be legal for all legal gun owners.

really? This is a serious response? Those tasked with putting their lives on the line for public safety and expected to stop bank robbers, gang bangers and potential terrorists who often possess illegal fire power should be limited?

There is mandatory training and generally those on the swat team have been hand picked and extensively trained. But hey, Joe Six Pack should be able to own a full auto FAMAS or P90 too?

Cops shouldn't limited, neither should the general populace.

[tuckersdaddy]

The building was vacant and in very poor condition , as are many buildings on that street. there would have been too high a risk of fire to be tossing flash bangs in there. I have seen buildings on that street burn and the buildings are against one another with wall construction that is not modern fire code. you would have been putting out a block fire is it ignited. imagine fighting that fire with an armed madman in a window.

 

that is by far the best answer ive gotten to my question. thanks for filling in some of the blanks.

[Five Seasons]

Who is "Joe six pack" in your world ? Its the fat, drunken idiot who shoots at everything that moves and then shoots himself, or someone else, in the foot because he is just a big greasy, beer swilling  moron...Right?

Theres not a law abiding citizen out there that is smart enough to be trained on, and properly handle  anything more than a BB gun...

 

joe six pack is just a term for the average citizen, that's all i meant by that. Nothing was meant to insinuate i'm speaking of a red neck/white track etc.

 

Cops shouldn't limited, neither should the general populace.

 

right. I have every right and need to mount a fully automatic m240b to my upstairs window overlooking the street. Listen I'm an NRA member and very pro second amendment, but it's statements and beliefs like these that hurt our cause. I have nothing against semi-auto assault rifles and 30 round mags. I do not believe drum mags are necessary for anyone. I do not believe full autos are necessary for anyone and I think silencers should be illegal to the public as well. I understand the NRA must push back to avoid giving an inch and a mile being taken. But them fighting against background checks is just retarded. Look at the latest few shootings, and the college student in Florida.

 

If you're not a nut case or a convicted felon you should be able to own firearms, and I for one as an owner of multiple firearms and someone who has a wife and kid would like the government to do their damnedest to keep guns out of these peoples hands and also improve their efforts against illegal firearms trade. And if it wasn't clear, I am against most of the safe act, with the exception of a reasonable approach to mental health and background checks (in addition to improved mental health systems). I also do not believe a citizen should own fully automatic firearms. Not because they would do any more damage to their target (exactly why the military uses select fire rifles) but because they're hard to control and easy to do unintended harm.

[Doc]

I am against most of the safe act, with the exception of a reasonable approach to mental health and background checks (in addition to improved mental health systems).

The jury is still out as to whether the mental health portions of that law will improve or make worse the number of crazies being denied weapons. I'm not sure how many will be ducking mental treatments with a "snitch" law in effect. I believe that is what doctor patient confidentiality has always been about. This law may turn out to be responsible for even more untreated, unmedicated looneys being on the street, particularly those that are intent on misusing firearms (the old law of unintended consequences).

 

As far as background checks on ammunition sales, I sincerely do believe that that is simply a complete waste of time and resources and designed to eliminate mail-order purchase of ammunition and reloading components. That is pure anti-2nd amendment harrassment activity against legitiment law abiding gun owners. In fact for those that do not have a local outlet of bullet components, it may actually eliminate that activity completely.

[WNYBuckHunter]

joe six pack is just a term for the average citizen, that's all i meant by that. Nothing was meant to insinuate i'm speaking of a red neck/white track etc.

 

 

right. I have every right and need to mount a fully automatic m240b to my upstairs window overlooking the street. Listen I'm an NRA member and very pro second amendment, but it's statements and beliefs like these that hurt our cause. I have nothing against semi-auto assault rifles and 30 round mags. I do not believe drum mags are necessary for anyone. I do not believe full autos are necessary for anyone and I think silencers should be illegal to the public as well. I understand the NRA must push back to avoid giving an inch and a mile being taken. But them fighting against background checks is just retarded. Look at the latest few shootings, and the college student in Florida.

 

If you're not a nut case or a convicted felon you should be able to own firearms, and I for one as an owner of multiple firearms and someone who has a wife and kid would like the government to do their damnedest to keep guns out of these peoples hands and also improve their efforts against illegal firearms trade. And if it wasn't clear, I am against most of the safe act, with the exception of a reasonable approach to mental health and background checks (in addition to improved mental health systems). I also do not believe a citizen should own fully automatic firearms. Not because they would do any more damage to their target (exactly why the military uses select fire rifles) but because they're hard to control and easy to do unintended harm.

 

Full autos are legal for many people in other states with the correct licensing, etc from ATF. Whats wrong with that? Are you aware of the requirements from ATF to be granted the licenses for them? They are pretty strict, and the yearly tax you pay on each one is pricey. Whats the problem with silencers? You DO realize, they dont perform like the ones in a James Bond movie where the shot is completely or almost completely silenced, right? They just knock down the muzzle blast on MOST firearms so that it is safe to shoot them without ear protection. I dont see anything wrong with that.

[Five Seasons]

The jury is still out as to whether the mental health portions of that law will improve or make worse the number of crazies being denied weapons. I'm not sure how many will be ducking mental treatments with a "snitch" law in effect. I believe that is what doctor patient confidentiality has always been about. This law may turn out to be responsible for even more untreated, unmedicated looneys being on the street, particularly those that are intent on misusing firearms (the old law of unintended consequences).

 

As far as background checks on ammunition sales, I sincerely do believe that that is simply a complete waste of time and resources and designed to eliminate mail-order purchase of ammunition and reloading components. That is pure anti-2nd amendment harrassment activity against legitiment law abiding gun owners. In fact for those that do not have a local outlet of bullet components, it may actually eliminate that activity completely.

 

 

I totally agree with your points. And there in lies the concern. However, I feel that the anti's will not go away until they get something. And mental health is much better than telling me how many rounds I can hold. For what it's worth, I'd be even happier if we just improved our mental health system in general.

 

Full autos are legal for many people in other states with the correct licensing, etc from ATF. Whats wrong with that? Are you aware of the requirements from ATF to be granted the licenses for them? They are pretty strict, and the yearly tax you pay on each one is pricey. Whats the problem with silencers? You DO realize, they dont perform like the ones in a James Bond movie where the shot is completely or almost completely silenced, right? They just knock down the muzzle blast on MOST firearms so that it is safe to shoot them without ear protection. I dont see anything wrong with that.

 

yes, i watch sons of guns. I realize all these things. I'm simply replying to the few people who feel citizens should be able to own whatever the law can own, and vise versa. And to me, that's just silly.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

yes, i watch sons of guns. I realize all these things. I'm simply replying to the few people who feel citizens should be able to own whatever the law can own, and vise versa. And to me, that's just silly.

But I think the point was, that in most states you can own them now. it just takes a high level background and big bucks

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Exactly

 

And guess what, the antis arent going to go away even if you do give them something. They will just want to take more. The SAFE act in itself is proof positive of that. We already had an Assault Weapons Ban, but it wasnt good enough for them. Since the SAFE act was passed, they have been trying to pass more and more and more on top of that as well.

 

You need to take the rose colored glasses off and realize what the real goal is for the antis.

[Five Seasons]

it's like talking to a stone wall. Some of you are so entrenched in your views you never see the forest through the trees. This kind of thinking keeps happening in congress too and nothing ever gets done because either side is "scared" and never willing to compromise.

 

the dems didn't uphold the ban in congress anyhow.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Belo

[WNYBuckHunter]

Its the reality of the issue though Belo. Believe me, there are things I feel would be just fine, like background checks, and a nationwide pistol permit system as long as all states reciprocate, but the antis never ever stop chipping away at our 2A rights. Nothing but a total outright ban is ever enough for them. You think they will stop, history has proven they wont.

[Doc]

I totally agree with your points. And there in lies the concern. However, I feel that the anti's will not go away until they get something. And mental health is much better than telling me how many rounds I can hold. For what it's worth, I'd be even happier if we just improved our mental health system in general.

Do not buy into the appeasement theory. Realistically we know that that doesn't work. This is not a negotiation. The anti-gun folks are satisfied with only one result ... that being the complete removal of firearms from private ownership. Don't be fooled into thinking you can negotiate or trade in our rights and that it will result in them leaving the gun owner alone. You know better than that. And even if I believed for a second that appeasement would work, my rights are not for sale.

 

As far as the mental health clauses of the so-called SAFE act, I seriously believe that there is a chance that it may decrease treatment of those exact mental illnesses that result in these cases of mass murder. I think that perhaps there may wind up more untreated, dangerously insane people on the street because of it. I don't know, but I do know that the doctor/patient confidentiality rules were established for a reason. And I belive that reason was to make people feel more confident in going in for treatment.

 

And, unfortunately there is no choice between the mental health aspects of this law and the number of cartridges you can have in your magazine. So it's not an either/or situation.

 

Improving the mental health care system ...... we have no disagreement there.

[nyantler]

I would be okay with background checks if thats all it was... I don't need to tell them how many or what guns I'm purchasing. Nor should I have to fill out any paperwork to get checked. Just my name with identification so they can check my background. Once I check out.. that should be the end of it. But we all know that isn't where it ends... they want the paperwork, and the weapons purchased and how many... that should tell everyone what they are really up to... they need none of that to check my background.

[tuckersdaddy]

belo lests look at the contradictions in the different ny laws. in ny silencers, lets use the correct term surpressors, are illegal.  in any factory setting osha regulates the noise level to keep hearing damage to a minimum, yet ny will not allow you to bring the noise level of a firearm below the same level. anyone who has done any volume of shooting understands the toll this sport takes on your hearing. after 2 rounds of trap, even with double protection on, my ears will ring for hours after. if you dont like that analogy, how about your muffler falls off your car. you pass the trooper, he tickets you for a loud exhaust. you shoot with a surpressor you go to jail for not making enough noise. the gun grabbers only care about taking bits of you 2nd ammed rights until there is nothing left to take. and a reason for a 90 round drum on an ak......a great big