Taking the plunge

[shawnhu]

Thanks Shawn. I certainly understand someone could stop drawing before it locks up, but my question really was, if the bow is pulled beyond the intended DL, would it lock up?

I know, I was just trying to be funny.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[nyantler]

I think that going traditional right off the bat would be much easier and less expensive than getting into the expense and learning all the gadgets on a compound... as a beginner I would stick to shorter shots anyway so learning to shot a longbow or recurve wouldn't be that hard at all... a bow and some arrows are all you need.. I have purchased some nice older bear recurves on ebay for less than $100... arrows might cost you another $100, a shooting glove or tab and an arm guard maybe $30 and you're off and running. Practicing 20 yards and in all summer and you'll be ready for hunting come October easily. Trad archery is a riot and much less gadgetry to worry about... I've done both and will never shoot a compound again... but hey... that's just me. Good luck in whatever you choose.

[NFA-ADK]

I am never wrong I am just misunderstood.     Wow we are stubborn!  I am the first to admit it!

Conclusion:  We (Hunters) like to argue, because we know WE are right, lol.  Even if WE are wrong, reread line one.

Man I love this site!  LOL

[moog5050]

Bacon it is. Thanks

[Doc]

so on a bow like this, what stops one from overdrawing it to the point of lockup - or can that be done if its overdrawn?

To understand what is happening as you draw any compound bow, you have to understand the force-draw curve of the compound bow theory. Here is the shape of a typical compound bow:

As you can see, when the draw length has been reached, we hit what is called the wall. That is the point where the cam is no longer supplying any mechanical advantage. At that point, if you go any farther you are pulling directly against the force of the heavy limbs with no assist at all, and it does indeed feel like you have hit a "wall". There is a very short area before the wall that is called the "valley" That is the point of maximum reduction of pull force and is also the bow's "draw length". There is no "locking up" in any of this. It is simply a case of the draw force being dictated throughout the entire stroke of the cam until it no longer provides any mechanical advantage. Then, BAM, you hit the wall of the force draw curve. These force-draw curves vary a bit depending on the manufacturer's cam design, but they all follow that same path of a build up of drawing force to a peak weight and then a reduction of force down to a max reduction of force at your full draw weight. then there is a "null" point. And then no mechanical advantage at all ( full limb draw weight takes over). Without draw stops, you can continue to try to draw, but the force ramps up suddenly, and it becomes quite impossible to go much farther. It is very apparent when you have reached that point and you feel a very distinct "Wall" when you get there.

 

In the "valley" of this curve is where today's bows have located a hard stop that wasn't there in previous designs. So now the idea is to pull against that draw limiter ("draw stop") where before you could actually draw a little less or a little farther  and still have the same holding force. You used your anchor and body structure (bow arm length) to establish a natural draw length which was to position yourself in this valley in a consistent way at every shot. Some guys want their draw length to be just into the wall so that it does act as a draw stop to a certain extent, however it is a lot softer than the actual designed in draw stop. Others want to be somewhere in the middle of that valley and rely on a consistent anchor and draw length to find that actual location.

 

At any rate, there is no "locking up" or any other damaging thing that can happen by trying to over-draw a compound, at least not while being drawn under human muscle power. Your cam simply reaches the end of it's useful assistance and you find yourself drawing the entire weight of the limbs. You won't be going much farther (if at all) when that happens.

[moog5050]

Doc

A modern compound can and will lock up if drawn without the stops. Ask me how I know. I don't need the physics lessons. I have torn down and reassembled many bows, just none that didnt have draw or cable stops and rest assured, the op will buy a bow that has stops. Identify one modern compound bow sold today that doesn't have stops. I challenge you to find one.

Edited February 27, 2014 by moog5050

[Doc]

Doc

A modern compound can and will lock up if drawn without the stops. Ask me how I know. I don't need the physics lessons. I have torn down and reassembled many bows, just none that didnt have draw or cable stops and rest assured, the op will buy a bow that has stops. Identify one modern compound bow sold today that doesn't have stops. I challenge you to find one.

You asked, I answered. I have no knowledge of what you do or do not know about compound bows. Your question indicated that you have limited experience because there is a whole crap-load of bows out there that don't have draw stops. So I answered your question as exactly as possible. I can assure you that my bow and the millions out there like it will not "lock up" no matter how far you draw them back.

[jjb4900]

Doc

A modern compound can and will lock up if drawn without the stops. Ask me how I know. I don't need the physics lessons. I have torn down and reassembled many bows, just none that didnt have draw or cable stops and rest assured, the op will buy a bow that has stops. Identify one modern compound bow sold today that doesn't have stops. I challenge you to find one.

there's a few entry level youth bows that don't have them........Matthews Genesis is one in particular that comes to mind........and of course if you remove a part off a bow that it's supposed to have it's gonna be a problem. kinda like taking the brakes off your car, would you be shocked when it didn't stop?

Edited February 27, 2014 by jjb4900

[jjb4900]

The Hoyt Tribute is another modern bow without stops, it's an adult bow designed for finger shooters..........so they're out there, and I'm sure there's more.

[moog5050]

You asked, I answered. I have no knowledge of what you do or do not know about compound bows. Your question indicated that you have limited experience because there is a whole crap-load of bows out there that don't have draw stops. So I answered your question as exactly as possible. I can assure you that my bow and the millions out there like it will not "lock up" no matter how far you draw them back.

 

 

You make me laugh Doc.  Since starting archery only 2 1/2 years ago, I have probably owned more than 30 bows and tuned more (including disassembling them).  If that is limited, then my experieince is limited.  Now, if you are talking about recurves or old compounds, yes I have no experience.  But all of the, I guess I will say popular bows today, have draw stops.  Could be that the reason they do is because of the high let off, which results in the bow locking up if overdrawn even by an inch without stops.  Again, I guess the old bows that have 50% let off, that may not be an issue and I would assume its simply cam design.  I have never shot or worked on one.  But your response suggests to me that you have limited experieince with the types of bows being sold today.  The hoyt tribute may be an outlier, but most hoyts, matthews, elites, strothers, bears etc. have draw stops or cable stops to create a solid backwall and to prevent lock up.  Thank you for the historical perspective however.

[moog5050]

JJB check your info.  Based on a 6 second search on google, the tribute does have a draw stop.

[Sogaard]

there's a few entry level youth bows that don't have them........Matthews Genesis is one in particular that comes to mind........and of course if you remove a part off a bow that it's supposed to have it's gonna be a problem. kinda like taking the brakes off your car, would you be shocked when it didn't stop?

 

Mathews Genesis also doesn't have a set draw length.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Sogaard

[jjb4900]

JJB check your info.  Based on a 6 second search on google, the tribute does have a draw stop.

my mistake, I mistakenly typed in string stop instead of draw stop.

[RangerClay]

Holy Hyjack Batman!

 

I'm not going to join in the debate.  Sent you a PM.

[ncountry]

Hyjack!! I forgot what the original question was... For the record there are a quite a few bows without separate draw stops . z7 for example.. Many of the binary cam bows will lock up without draw stops installed. Standing there with the bow at full  draw hollering for help so someone could give the cams a nudge to come back around,,lol I could have set the bow down and walked away.. Hopefully the op found a knowledgeable bow shop(few and far between.imo).

 

I believe the Most important things for a beginning Archer are

1. quality bow (new or used) My shooting improved significantly when I move from an old used $100 pse to a "pro level" bow .The bows built in the last 5 years are significantly easier to shoot then many of the older ones.,

2.proper # (most people pull too much #) being strong and dumb I still only shoot a 65# bow

3. proper draw length (most people have a bow that is too long for them) I was sold a 29" and a30" draw bows years ago before I learned my proper length now it is 27.5"

[orion]

Ok I am still confused, thick headed or whatever here

 

I am going to get measured for a bow. I go to archery shop they have me hold bow elbow slightly bent, they tell me to draw back the bow and come to an anchor point which puts my right forearm(right handed shooter) in a straight line with arrow and keep my elbow slightly up.

 

I now do this with an arrow that's marked and measure to the deepest part of grip from the nock add 1 3/4 and  get my drawlength.

 

 

Is this correct?

 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Ok I am still confused, thick headed or whatever here

 

I am going to get measured for a bow. I go to archery shop they have me hold bow elbow slightly bent, they tell me to draw back the bow and come to an anchor point which puts my right forearm(right handed shooter) in a straight line with arrow and keep my elbow slightly up.

 

I now do this with an arrow that's marked and measure to the deepest part of grip from the nock add 1 3/4 and  get my drawlength.

 

 

Is this correct?

why adding the 1 3/4"?

[dbHunterNY]

hahaha....well seeings how this thread is long gone.  i'll give my thoughts.  i don't believe any compound bow has nothing in place for a "draw stop", allowing you to draw until it simply locked up.  older bows and some new target bows have cams machined with grooves or flat surfaces that the string bottomed out on.  due to longer limb length of non-parallel limbed older bows with this style cam you got a "back wall / end of draw cycle" of the bow that was very spungy and allowed for another inch or more of draw if you simply pulled a little harder and disregarded your anchor related to your correct draw length.  you wouldn't be allowed to simply draw and have the cams over rotate to the point where they wouldn't roll back when letting down on the string.  most newer bows have post style draw stops to help stiffen the "back wall".  there's two types of these posts; ones that contact the string/cables and ones that contact the limb(s).  both can yield a pretty stiff back wall given the bow geometry of todays shorter, more parallel limbs.  one grey area for some might be new bow fishing specific bows or the Mathews Genesis used for NASP in schools.  these still have the first stop type i mentioned but won't serve it's purpose until the maximum draw length of the bow.  most shooters simply draw to there anchor point as the draw range without any adjustments is huge.

[Doc]

You make me laugh Doc.  Since starting archery only 2 1/2 years ago, I have probably owned more than 30 bows and tuned more (including disassembling them).  If that is limited, then my experieince is limited.  Now, if you are talking about recurves or old compounds, yes I have no experience.  But all of the, I guess I will say popular bows today, have draw stops.  Could be that the reason they do is because of the high let off, which results in the bow locking up if overdrawn even by an inch without stops.  Again, I guess the old bows that have 50% let off, that may not be an issue and I would assume its simply cam design.  I have never shot or worked on one.  But your response suggests to me that you have limited experieince with the types of bows being sold today.  The hoyt tribute may be an outlier, but most hoyts, matthews, elites, strothers, bears etc. have draw stops or cable stops to create a solid backwall and to prevent lock up.  Thank you for the historical perspective however.

What amazes me is all the people who think archery and the compound bow theory began the day they first bought their first bow. My bow, a Matthews, has an 80% let-off and has no draw stops and I know there were a lot of bows of all kinds of makes and models after that bow that had no draw stops. I will not even get into the number of decades worth of bows that I have rebuilt, and modified because frankly, none of that has a thing to do with the answer that I provided and I am not interested in impressing anyone.

 

There was nothing in my explanation that I have invented or concocted, so I am not certain as to why you are getting so huffy that I included such things as force-draw curves, valleys and the wall of the curve. It is not my science. Try not to be so sensitive when you ask a question and then get an answer. I understand it is not necessary to know compound history or the physics of compound bows to work on them, but if I can't use proper terminology and illustrations to provide an answer without you getting all insulted and offended, then please don't ask the question in the first place.

[orion]

Culvercreek,

 

I have no idea but i believe thats what they all do.

 

Anyone else know?

[ncountry]

Culver...The average bow is 1 3/4" from throat of hand grip to front edge of bow. This is the standard AMO method of measuring dl .

 

Some info in this article.

http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_1.htm

 

db .. it is a fact that many of today's bows will lock up if the stops are removed .

In some bows, a person can  adjust stops too far back and result in a locked up bow( this is more common in a bow with a rotating mod and a longer stop slot to accommodate different draw lengths.

[phade]

Doc, as noted already the cam design prevents the over draw past on older bows. I was having trouble stating it, but DB got it clearer.

 

You cannot draw a bow to infinity and beyond.

[jjb4900]

Culvercreek,

 

I have no idea but i believe thats what they all do.

 

Anyone else know?

you sure that the added 1 3/4 isn't for arrow length?

[Doc]

why adding the 1 3/4"?

The 1-3/4" is an arbitrary number used by the AMO to account for the distance from the contact point of the hand to the opposite side of the riser. Why didn't they simply use the grip point of the bow handle? ...... Good question. I haven't got a clue, but that is the industry standard, and the way the draw length of a bow is specified when you measure it up and order the bow.

 

 

Edit Note: Sorry Ncountry beat me to it and already explained this.

[moog5050]

Culvercreek,

 

I have no idea but i believe thats what they all do.

 

Anyone else know?

 

 

I am not sure when they measure with an arrow, at what point they measure or if they need to add 1.75".  When on a draw board, you measure from the deepest part of the grip to the end of the string at full draw and add 1.75".    By way of example, I am working on a pulse now, and the first measurement from deepest part of grip to string at full draw was 26 5/8" giving you a DL for the bow of 28 3/8".  I needed to get the DL down to 28 1/8" which required twisitng the string and then the cables to keep the DW weight up as twisiting string alone will reduce DW.  I now have it at 28 1/8 and everything in spec, timed and synched.  Now to get a rest on there and shoot a bit. 

 

Doc - have a great day.  Nothing more.