Comparing legal shooting time to driving the speed limit

[phade]

Since you seem intent on calling me a liar, let me refresh your mind on how this conversation went instead of you talking about circles and such:

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Doc:

Not only do I quit at the appropriate time, but even before that time I begin to pack up my gear so that when sunset comes I'm out of my stand and heading home.

 

Phade:

How do you get out of your stand. Pretty sure you have stated you dont hunt from stands and haven't for a long while. Seems a little fishy there boss.

 

Doc:

Well, what can I say ....... you thought wrong.

 

Phade:

Pretty sure you've stated several times in the past few months you've been out of the trees and evolved into a ground hunter.

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I do hunt from stands and I have been out of the trees for quite a few years. You were wrong. I told you so. So where's the talking in circles. You were looking for the big gotcha, and made a stupid assumption. I straightened you out. So what's your problem. You desperately wanted to prove me a liar and made a fool of yourself in the process. That is not a problem of my making. Next time you try to call someone a liar, check your facts and don't make dumb assumptions.

 

For all of the brainiac and smart posts you make, I don't recall you ever owning up to being wrong in any conversation/debate we have ever had. That belies a characteristc tragically flawed. I have zero problem stating I was wrong and I own those situations (I'm not casting stones in a glass house) - but this one still holds truth in my view. You knew clearly I was talking about tree stands. I believe you made a story that tries to back up your position with anecdotal evidence. In the end, that's all you have, stories either your own or implied stories. Safety records haven't been dramatically impacted by the 1/2 hr change. Thus, your preference to not change the law is based on what? You seeing the sky falling, when the data shows it doesn't? Again, just more evidence to show that you can't choke down some humility.

 

It's not hard to see what I was getting at.

 

You said something earlier in this thread that I thought was interesting "It's a law...just follow it." I think I understand the frustration coming out when making a statement like that because there is no data showing that the 1/2 hr difference creates a safety issue. But I'm surprised that you made a statement like that. Can you honestly say you have followed every law/regulation/code, etc.? Intentional or not.

 

I'm not so sure many people can say they have. I really do question that.

 

Laws are common threads that bind and hold one accountable. Ethical and moral quandries have presented themselves to me before. Two years ago, I had to shoot not one, but two doe in front of my house wihtin a week-span because they got hit by a car. Both stopped and I came out and dispatched them with my .22 and bow. I have zero problem admitting that. Was it the law? Nope. I broke it. Why? One car was a van full of kids and the doe was flopping around in front of the car and they were all crying and it was pretty clearly traumatic. I dispatched the deer with my bow after moving it out of sight of the kids. The mother thanked me and the father later called me and thanked me, too. I wasn't waiting for the cops to come, and they did. They also thanked me. The other was hit by a Corrections Officer. He actually asked me if I could dispatch it. Again, the sheriff filed a report (he hammered that doe bad and it was stuck under his truck alive and had big damage to he week old truck). and thanked me.

 

I broke the law 2x, maybe more. Neither time did the auithorities cite me and rather thanked me. Following the law on that one went against my moral and ethical compass. If you say I did the wrong thing personally, I just don't see much value in your opinion. So, no just because it is a law, I don't blindly follow it. I don't think many in this world can say they do.

Edited December 11, 2014 by phade

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

Poaching is beyond a criminal. You would have to think about it whenever you open the freezer door. Every time you see the poached trophy on the wall.

Speeding means you just got their faster.

Poaching means you killed sometime illegally.

Big big difference.

Which is why I have no deer this season, and I could have easily shot 10 deer from the road. Every freakin deer I saw would have made me a road hunter. I just couldn't do it.

But I sped home at 80 MPH, with my radar detector.

And I proud to say, I'm an ethical hunter. And fast driver.

That's just me. You guys do what's right for you.

I speed to !!!

It's really not a big difference,, it's that everyone has their definition of what laws are MORALLY ok for them to personally break.. If you think speeding isn't a crime??? turn your radar detector off and rack up a couple of tickets, and don't go to court and tell me how that works out for you...

Seeing a deer on the side of the road and complying with game laws to take a animal is legal,, morally it may not make you feel like a successful hunter, again what is ok for you morally..

[Doc]

For all of the brainiac and smart posts you makes, I don't recall you ever owning up to being wrong in any conversation/debate we have ever had. That belies a characteristc tragically flawed. I have zero problem stating I was wrong and I own those situations - but this one still holds truth in my view. You knew clearly I was talking about tree stands. Others did too, as evidenced by my posts being "liked."

The fact is that I had no idea you were talking about tree stands until you said so. Further, I have to wonder why you were so fast to jump on the "gotcha" tactics. You seemed to go off half-cocked on what you thought was the highlight of your day. Well, you got caught up in your eagerness to call me a liar and made a fool of yourself. I would say I'm sorry that that happened, but none of it was of my doing.

 

Seems like even after I laid out the whole conversation right in front of you, you still think there was something there that I should admit was wrong. Either you can't read, or you won't read, or you are just pissed off that you didn't catch me in a lie, but you are starting to get ridiculous now and I am getting pretty weary of all of your nonsense. I will simply repeat that next time you try to call someone a liar, check your facts and don't make dumb assumptions. That is the most useful thing that I can end this conversation with.

[phade]

The fact is that I had no idea you were talking about tree stands until you said so. Further, I have to wonder why you were so fast to jump on the "gotcha" tactics. You seemed to go off half-cocked on what you thought was the highlight of your day. Well, you got caught up in your eagerness to call me a liar and made a fool of yourself. I would say I'm sorry that that happened, but none of it was of my doing.

 

Seems like even after I laid out the whole conversation right in front of you, you still think there was something there that I should admit was wrong. Either you can't read, or you won't read, or you are just pissed off that you didn't catch me in a lie, but you are starting to get ridiculous now and I am getting pretty weary of all of your nonsense. I will simply repeat that next time you try to call someone a liar, check your facts and don't make dumb assumptions. That is the most useful thing that I can end this conversation with.

 

 It wasn't me, I'm not wrong, I'm never wrong, you are the fool, etc. Just more of the same rhetoric from you Doc.

 

Wasn't using Gotcha tactics for the sake of getting you and that should be clear...showing that implied stories don't support or overrule the fact hard data shows the 1/2hr rule isn't a safety issue. All you have are stories.

 

States that have the 1/2 hr rule...not comprehensive list, but just a few I know of.

 

NJ, IA, MN, ME, MD, VA, KS, OH.

 

Just that list alone shows a wide range of hunting state characteristics...high dpsm, high hunter density, high hunter numbers, low hunter density, numbers, deer, etc. That's just scratching teh surface. I think there may be MORE that offer this than don't.

 

If safety were even a sniffle of a risk with this rule, states wouldn't be doing this.

Edited December 11, 2014 by phade

[steve863]

Breaking News:  The fight between Doc and Phade has spilled into the street.

 

 

[Doc]

Breaking News:  The fight between Doc and Phade has spilled into the street.

Ha-ha.... There is no fight here, I'm just not going to sit here and let someone call me a liar without pushing back a little.

[phade]

Funny, but as much as Doc and I don't see eye to eye, he does have value and offer good insight from time to time.

 

I bet Doc wouldn't say that about me though.

[phade]

Ha-ha.... There is no fight here, I'm just not going to sit here and let someone call me a liar without pushing back a little.

 

Never called you a liar. You implied a story to try to back up your position with more anecdotal evidence. All you still have is anecdote.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

 It wasn't me, I'm not wrong, I'm never wrong, you are the fool, etc. Just more of the same rhetoric from you Doc.

 

Wasn't using Gotcha tactics for the sake of getting you and that should be clear...showing that implied stories don't support or overrule the fact hard data shows the 1/2hr rule isn't a safety issue. All you have are stories.

 

States that have the 1/2 hr rule...not comprehensive list, but just a few I know of.

 

NJ, IA, MN, ME, MD, VA, KS, OH.

 

Just that list alone shows a wide range of hunting state characteristics...high dpsm, high hunter density, high hunter numbers, low hunter density, numbers, deer, etc. That's just scratching teh surface. I think there may be MORE that offer this than don't.

 

If safety were even a sniffle of a risk with this rule, states wouldn't be doing this.

So true and just think, some of those states are top book buck producing states and some i believe can run deer with dogs. If that does not run the gamut?

[phade]

So true and just think, some of those states are top book buck producing states and some i believe can run deer with dogs. If that does not run the gamut?

 

Valid points on the dogs and book buck states, too.

 

NY is just full of people with anecdotal stories about other people (never the ones telling the story, of course) doing completely dangerous things. Tail wagging the dog on this one, letting fearmongering limit opportunity.

 

The sky is falling thought process inhibits our ability to move forward.

Edited December 11, 2014 by phade

[Dave]

Guys, I think we beat this topic to death. We should start a new subject to agree to disagree on.

[Doc]

Never called you a liar. You implied a story to try to back up your position with more anecdotal evidence. All you still have is anecdote.

I was simply describing the way that I handle abiding by legal quitting time when all of a sudden I am confronted with a, "seems a little fishy there boss" comment, and apparently I am lying because for some reason I must be talking about getting out of a tree stand which I have said I never use anymore .... lol. And by the way it was not anecdotal evidence of anything, just a simple statement of fact that I start packing up before quitting time and leave my stand at sunset done with the hunt. I thought the whole reaction to what I said was a bit strange, uncalled for and contrived and still do.

 

As far as appreciation of insight and differing points of view, don't mistake my defense of my honesty and integrity as belittling anyone's points of view on legitimate topics.

[nyantler]

 

As far as appreciation of insight and differing points of view, don't mistake my defense of my honesty and integrity as belittling anyone's points of view on legitimate topics.

 

I wonder sometimes if when we use the words honesty and integrity when describing our character... if there are some that don't understand what those words really mean... those words always seem to get the definition of " holier than thou" or "better than others". Like having honesty and integrity is a bad thing...  After hearing some of what is posted here its hard now to take all of the posts about ethics seriously.. frankly I'm surprised at the lack of integrity I'm getting from many of these "hunters".

 

Although we aren't "holier" or "better" than anyone here... I am a little disheartened that we are definitely very different than so many.

[wolc123]

I have rarely driven a road in NY state where the average speed of traffic was less than 5 mph above the posted limit, unless there was poor weather conditions or congestion caused by volume or accidents, etc. .  Driving below the speed-limit would be more likely to cause an accident especially on the highway, even though to not do so is "technically" illegal, than keeping up with the normal traffic flow.    This makes "bending the law", by 5-10 mph, the lesser of two evils.    This is a case of common sense trumping the law.  Another reason for the lack of enforcement in the 1-10 mph over range at highway speeds is to allow for some calibration inaccuracy of radar and speedometers.   

 

I am fairly certain that I would not start hunting before sunrise, or continue after.  For a few years I never put bullets in my gun in the morning.   My second year hunting, I took my first buck about 30 seconds after legal sunrise.  There were no slugs in my grandpas old Ithaca 37, 16 ga. pump, as I heard him approach from in the adjacent jungle.  I had a slug in my right hand as the seconds were ticking down.  Just as he broke out of the brush, just below my tree stand, I shoved the slug in from the bottom of the receiver and prayed that it would get into the chamber as I slammed the action forward.  That frightening sound, so often portrayed in movies and cop shows, stopped him in his tracks, and he looked up just in time to catch the muzzle flash, feel the crush on his shoulder and hear the blast. 

 

For a many years after that I loaded the gun in the dark, as soon as I got into the stand, but was never tempted with taking a shot before legal sunrise time as was listed in the local paper.  I cant say for sure that if a monster buck appeared I would not have shot, especially if I had heard a few go off already.   It was always interesting to hear when that first shot was taken on opening day.  I could picture the game-warden honing in on it and heading right for the spot. In later years, I noticed that more often than not, deer were spooked in he dark on the way in.  I prefer to wait until legal sunrise now before staring, and still-hunt my way to the stand.  I feel a little safer that way also, with some ding-a-ling less likely to shoot me in the dark.

 

For evening hunts, I sometimes reverse that procedure and allow enough time before legal local sunset to still-hunt my way out.   Usually however, I watch the last second tick down, then remove the bullets / arrow, and walk out.  The season before last my third largest buck ever tested that limit also, but made it just a few seconds under the wire.   I had taken a button buck in the morning and a good friend gave me another one, almost identical.  They were both fat and well-fed, probably 75 lbs or so field dressed each.  The woods behind my house had been alive with gunfire that opening day morning (only one of the shots was mine).   I do all my own butchering, and a warm stretch of weather was coming, so I was not all that enthused about an afternoon hunt, especially behind the house where there had been so much commotion that morning.

 

Nonetheless, it was opening day, I still had my buck tag, so late in the afternoon, I headed across the road to the big woods over there where it had been quite in the morning.  I climbed up in a stand, with grandpas old 16-gauge, up in a pine tree, on the edge of some heavy cover, and started reading a little Bible I carry in my pack.   I saw another hunter cross thru about 100 yards away, a few squirrels, but nothing else.   With about 2 minutes of legal time left, the Bible slipped from my hands and fell to the ground, about 15 feet below.

 

Since the meat-hooks in the garage were loaded now, I decided to pack it up a couple minutes early.   With the loaded gun in my right hand, I carefully made my way down the steps (sorry for the safety violation here folks, please don't come down on me too hard).  When I got down, I crouched down and reached for the Bible with my left hand.  Just then, I heard crashing sounds in the thick cover from all sides.  I looked up to see that a flock of turkeys had descended right on my position.  Some were less than 5 yards away.  They had not seen my blaze-orange jacket because of the heavy cover I was in.  Had I still been up in that tree, they never would have got that close, as turkey season had just ended the previous day.    

 

I looked at my watch and there was just under a minute to go.  Just then I caught movement about 7 yards, straight ahead.  The wide, high 8-point rack, head and neck of a nice 2-1/2 year old buck was right there.  The deer in these woods often like to hang with the turkeys to gain the advantage of their superior eyesight, while the turkeys don't mind them hanging around to capitalize on the deer's better sense of smell I suppose.  I lifted the gun swiftly, put the crosshairs on the center of the neck, and dropped him right there in his tracks.  There were about 15 seconds to go.   I emptied the other 4 shells, gutted him quick, and had him to the edge of the woods before it got pitch black dark.  Thankfully I have lights on my loader-tractor, so getting him the rest of the way home was no big deal.                           

[growalot]

Belo...you might want to rethink your post #123...for your own words, before that have, you illegally tagging deer with your wife's tags...If I recall, many people here called guys that do that POACHERS....BTW I really don't think you were just kidding...What does living in NY have to do with it?...you still hunt here. Why even throw that little tid bit out if you were only joking.

Edited December 13, 2014 by growalot

[Doc]

I honestly wonder why there is so much controversy over shooting hours. Have we gotten so darn desperate that we cannot abide by a very simple rule? It is amazing what peer pressure and a need for the acceptance of fellow hunters can force people to do. Most do a lot of self-control acts, like being super-selective in shot selection, looking for minimum personal standard in size/age of what they take, etc., etc. So what is the big deal about adding one other restriction ..... ensuring that we follow the law. Is that really a big hardship? Why is that one so hard to incorporate into our hunting ethics?

[Ford]

I honestly wonder why there is so much controversy over shooting hours. Have we gotten so darn desperate that we cannot abide by a very simple rule? It is amazing what peer pressure and a need for the acceptance of fellow hunters can force people to do. Most do a lot of self-control acts, like being super-selective in shot selection, looking for minimum personal standard in size/age of what they take, etc., etc. So what is the big deal about adding one other restriction ..... ensuring that we follow the law. Is that really a big hardship? Why is that one so hard to incorporate into our hunting ethics?

 

 

Its not really a big deal, for me anyway. It is a rule for taking game, not such a big deal.

 

The Safe Act is another animal. But that is off topic.

[fasteddie]

Well , I do check my watch when hunting and stay legal . Some folks could get away with breaking the law but if I did something illegal , I would probably have a DEC Officer tapping me on the shoulder in seconds .

Seven pages and no one has changed their mind ..................

[Doc]

Well , I do check my watch when hunting and stay legal . Some folks could get away with breaking the law but if I did something illegal , I would probably have a DEC Officer tapping me on the shoulder in seconds .

Seven pages and no one has changed their mind ..................

Some of these pages of replies may be serving the purpose of educating guys that there are a lot of people in the woods that have not decided to ignore game laws and perhaps the more obvious violations may not always get a free pass that everyone assumes.

[Dave]

Some of these pages of replies may be serving the purpose of educating guys that there are a lot of people in the woods that have not decided to ignore game laws and perhaps the more obvious violations may not always get a free pass that everyone assumes.

That would be true if there was enforcement. The question to ask is how many times have you encountered a DEC officer in the woods?

Or any where else during the hunting season.  I have had only two encounters and they were traffic stops checking everyone who was hunting. That was over a 39 year period!!

Edited December 13, 2014 by Dave

[nyantler]

That would be true if there was enforcement. The question to ask is how many times have you encountered a DEC officer in the woods?

Or any where else during the hunting season.  I have had only two encounters and they were traffic stops checking everyone who was hunting. That was over a 39 year period!!

 

It is not just enforcement of the law that concerns me... for me it's living by my personal rule of doing the right thing and keeping my integrity... even not getting arrested or ticketed after getting caught says something about somebody regardless of how law enforcement handles it... my choice and obligation to keep track of legal shooting time is more about what I would think of myself than what others think of me... even if I never got caught I would have to live with the lie of how I shot that deer minus the after legal shooting time part... a burden I'd rather not have to carry.

 

In the day of cell phones all set to the same time... knowing legal shooting times and adhering to them are very simple... just like tagging your deer, reporting your kill, etc etc... knowing when legal shooting time is, and having a watch to adhere to that time is your obligation as a hunter...maybe having 10 hours a day during gun season and 12 during bow season just isn't enough time each day for some hunters to kill a deer or cheating is in their nature.

Edited December 14, 2014 by nyantler

[wolc123]

Unfortunately, there always has been and always will be some people in any sport who have no conscience or integrity. It amazes me to hear people say "they filled their wifes, grandfathers, daughters, etc. buck tags", or to hear shots an hour or more before or after legal sunset. Personally, I could not do those things and any deer harvested in such a way would haunt me the rest of my life. It is one thing to take some risk of wounding an animal with a long shot, etc. In more than 30 years of hunting I can think of only two shots that I knew I would make with 100% certainty and my gun misfired on one of them. It is quite another to blatantly disregard the law and label one's self as a poacher.

Edited December 14, 2014 by wolc123

[Dave]

It is not just enforcement of the law that concerns me... for me it's living by my personal rule of doing the right thing and keeping my integrity... even not getting arrested or ticketed after getting caught says something about somebody regardless of how law enforcement handles it... my choice and obligation to keep track of legal shooting time is more about what I would think of myself than what others think of me... even if I never got caught I would have to live with the lie of how I shot that deer minus the after legal shooting time part... a burden I'd rather not have to carry.

 

In the day of cell phones all set to the same time... knowing legal shooting times and adhering to them are very simple... just like tagging your deer, reporting your kill, etc etc... knowing when legal shooting time is, and having a watch to adhere to that time is your obligation as a hunter...maybe having 10 hours a day during gun season and 12 during bow season just isn't enough time each day for some hunters to kill a deer or cheating is in their nature.

 

When did this topic become about what you would do, Who cares? This is not about individuls , everyone has a different prospective.

 

Edited December 14, 2014 by Dave

[Doc]

That would be true if there was enforcement. The question to ask is how many times have you encountered a DEC officer in the woods?

Or any where else during the hunting season.  I have had only two encounters and they were traffic stops checking everyone who was hunting. That was over a 39 year period!!

That's a problem, and always will be with conservation law enforcement. However, almost every hunter carries a phone these days that are capable of calling the TIPP line at the DEC. Providing real proof is the problem, but most of the guys who ignore hunting laws really don't want the attention of the DEC even if a bust isn't likely. I don't know, but the very fact that the DEC law enforcement is spread so thin makes it even more important that we  become the eyes and ears for them in the woods. If a guy's name gets mentioned at region headquarters too many times, he may become someone who draws a lot of close scrutiny for all kinds of violations.

 

But I will admit that enforcement is truly a problem in most game violations.

[Doc]

When did this topic become about what you would do, Who cares? This is not about individuls , everyone has a different prospective.

 

Pretty much the discussion is about individuals and their opinions and their approach to, and thinking on, the adherence to legal shooting hours.