Disturbing article in NY Outdoor News

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I smoked cigarettes for a lot of years, but I would never tell my kids that they should start smoking. That may meet your screwy ideas of hypocrisy but it still meets the criteria of responsible parenting. I hope I'm not telling any of the parents here some kind of special "news flash".

Did you have children shoot younger than 12?

[ncountry]

A lot of crap to dig through..lol

S 265.05 Unlawful possession of weapons by persons under sixteen.  It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of sixteen topossess any air-gun, spring-gun or other instrument or weapon in whichthe propelling force is a spring or air, or any gun or any instrument orweapon in or upon which any loaded or blank cartridges may be used, orany loaded or blank cartridges or ammunition therefor, or any dangerousknife; provided that the possession of rifle or shotgun or ammunitiontherefor by the holder of a hunting license or permit issued pursuant toarticle eleven of the environmental conservation law and used inaccordance with said law shall not be governed by this section.  A person who violates the provisions of this section shall be  adjudged a juvenile delinquent.

Exceptions (ok for 12+ year old to shoot bb gun at home,supervised)

    7-c. Possession for the purpose of loading and  firing,  of  a  rifle,  pistol  or  shotgun,  the  propelling  force of which may be either air,  compressed gas or springs, by a person under sixteen years  of  age  but  not   under  twelve,  under  the  immediate  supervision,  guidance  and  instruction of (a) a duly commissioned  officer  of  the  United  States  army, navy, marine corps or coast guard, or of the national guard of the  state  of  New York; or ( a duly qualified adult citizen of the United  States who has been granted a certificate as an instructor in small arms  practice issued by the United States army, navy or marine corps,  or  by  the adjutant general of this state, or by the national rifle association  of  America,  a not-for-profit corporation duly organized under the laws  of this state; or (c) a parent, guardian, or a person over  the  age  of  eighteen designated in writing by such parent or guardian who shall have  a certificate of qualification in responsible hunting, including safety,  ethics,  and  landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or honored by  the department of environmental conservation.

Exceptions to the law. (looks like if they under 12 they can use a bb gun at a range)

    7-d. Possession, at an  indoor  or  outdoor  shooting  range  for  the  purpose  of  loading  and  firing,  of  a  rifle, pistol or shotgun, the  propelling force of which may be either air, compressed gas or  springs,  by  a person under twelve years of age, under the immediate supervision,  guidance and instruction of (a)  a  duly  commissioned  officer  of  the  United  States  army,  navy,  marine  corps  or  coast  guard, or of the  national guard of the state of New York; or ( a duly  qualified  adult  citizen  of  the  United States who has been granted a certificate as an  instructor in small arms practice issued by the United States army, navy  or marine corps, or by the adjutant general of this  state,  or  by  the  national rifle association of America, a not-for-profit corporation duly  organized  under the laws of this state; or (c) a parent, guardian, or a  person over the age of eighteen designated in writing by such parent  or  guardian  who  shall  have a certificate of qualification in responsible  hunting,  including  safety,  ethics,  and  landowner   relations-hunter  relations,   issued  or  honored  by  the  department  of  environmental  conservation.

[jjb4900]

wouldn't a paintball gun fall into the same category as a BB gun? these places allow kids as young as 10 to participate in those games........

[ncountry]

wouldn't a paintball gun fall into the same category as a BB gun? these places allow kids as young as 10 to participate in those games........

 

That is what it looks like to me

[growalot]

 

Quote

 

Students 11 to 16-years old must have a signed permission slip (PDF) (54 KB) from a parent or legal guardian to allow for the handling and shooting of a firearm during this course.

 

firearms Under 12 is a no go under any circumstance. instructor or not, parent or not. range or not. hunting or not.

 

Do you see how convoluted these laws are written??

[jjb4900]

Do you see how convoluted these laws are written??

yes, I didn't put to much effort into reading them, but they do seem a bit all over the place...and like I mentioned earlier, paintball guns look like they fall into the same category as BB and pellet guns, but there seems to be little enforcement as to who is using them as far as age goes...not there should be, but those places are pretty popular.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Do you see how convoluted these laws are written??

Kind of goes back to some of the comments. It can happen easily enough without trying, but I'd bet there isn't on person on here  that hasn't at least broken one law. Personally, if a regulation of law effects a person of a given age, the person of the given age should be able to understand the law as written. That should be the litmus test.

 

And for some of our resident members, I will refrain today from bashing lawyers...lol. You know, the ones that write them and then the others that make a living prosecuting and defending the folks that don't stand a prayer of understanding them.

 

Most of us on here have been around firearms and hunting a very long time.  Some their entire lives. I am 49 and been very active in the hunting and shooting since 8 following my father around. I bet many of us, myself included have had some "well, didn't know that" moments over the years. Imagine the new comers and how hard it is to know all of it.(and this is totally a side note and not saying this douchebag that pulled this was a new comer or didn't know the law)

Edited January 14, 2015 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Culvercreek hunt club]

yes, I didn't put to much effort into reading them, but they do seem a bit all over the place...and like I mentioned earlier, paintball guns look like they fall into the same category as BB and pellet guns, but there seems to be little enforcement as to who is using them as far as age goes...not there should be, but those places are pretty popular.

how about those airsoft things the kids are using. If they enforced this I bet there would be lots of juvenile delinquents running around.  

[jjb4900]

Kind of goes back to some of the comments. It can happen easily enough without trying, but I'd bet there isn't on person on here  that hasn't at least broken one law. Personally, if a regulation of law effects a person of a given age, the person of the given age should be able to understand the law as written. That should be the litmus test.

 

And for some of our resident members, I will refrain today from bashing lawyers...lol. You know, the ones that write them and then the others that make a living prosecuting and defending the folks that don't stand a prayer of understanding them.

 

Most of us on here have been around firearms and hunting a very long time.  Some their entire lives. I am 49 and been very active in the hunting and shooting since 8 following my father around. I bet many of us, myself included have had some "well, didn't know that" moments over the years. Imagine the new comers and how hard it is to know all of it.(and this is totally a side note and not saying this douchebag that pulled this was a new comer or didn't know the law)

true, but that's why some of the laws, whether we agree or not, state that there needs to be supervision....I assume they realize that a child who is affected by the law needs that parental control because the child isn't expected to understand and know them.

[LI OUTDOORSMAN]

Been following this thread now for awhile just my .2 cents..

Although I definitely disagree with the age limit requirement for NY I would never start out a young or new hunter by teaching them to break the rules right out of the gate..Better to teach them what the laws are and feel good you showed them the best way.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

true, but that's why some of the laws, whether we agree or not, state that there needs to be supervision....I assume they realize that a child who is affected by the law needs that parental control because the child isn't expected to understand and know them.

So average Joe with a kid will thoroughly understand those sections?

[jjb4900]

"Personally, if a regulation of law effects a person of a given age, the person of the given age should be able to understand the law as written"

that's what you said, and I took that to mean if a law affects a 12 year old, the 12 year old should be able to understand the law, no?.........maybe I misunderstood. That's why I said that's why the law requires an adult to help them understand and follow the law.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

"Personally, if a regulation of law effects a person of a given age, the person of the given age should be able to understand the law as written"

that's what you said, and I took that to mean if a law affects a 12 year old, the 12 year old should be able to understand the law, no?.........maybe I misunderstood. That's why I said that's why the law requires an adult to help them understand and follow the law.

In its full context I was speaking more of a person who was old enough to act alone and being able to understand what the laws were governing their actions. If I didn't make that clear I apologize. I figured it was evident from some of th comments from those that I believe are adults here and didn't know or understand this section of the law. I believe it was Doc or another that mentioned wondering how many break laws they don't even know they are breaking.

[Doc]

I know there are people who believe that every environmental conservation law is contained in the game syllabus that is handed out when you get your license. Well, that really isn't the case. It's not all on the DEC web-site either. It is in the volumes of law books that hardly any hunters own. And inside these law books are hidden some of these laws that contradict each other or are written so poorly that they can be interpreted several ways and some that are so obtuse and written in such a way that it requires a judge to untangle them, and often even he is simply rendering an "opinion". So really all you can do is try the best you can to live by the laws as you personally understand them and hope that you are not inadvertently or accidentally breaking any laws that you don't understand or that have not been adequately made available to the public.

 

To me violations of the kind that are buried and contradictory and confusingly written are in a whole different category from those violations where the hunter fully understands the law and knows full well that he is breaking that law, and then publicly boasts of his violations. Unfortunately enforcement and judicial branches of government make no such distinction, and in truth can not.

 

No one has ever said that our system of laws or any system of laws is flawless. But just imagine a world without them ..... lol. Responsible citizens do the best we can to abide by the law and teach our children to do the same. For some, responsibility is optional.

[Five Seasons]

Whats disturbing is I take my sweet 10 year old daughter to Pennsylvania and she RIGHTLY kills a LEGAL deer and then I tell her i she even thinks about doing it in NYS then its jail time for her and me

Jail time eh?

Whole new box to argue but 10 is probably fine for well taught kids, but I worry about the 10 year old who isn't ready or raised proper and shoots a deer.

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[Five Seasons]

I wonder how many of the guys that find this disturbing have let their kids that are below the NYS minimum age, shoot a BB gun, a 22, or other firearm. Regardless of how well you supervised it, its illegal.

Bottom line, to me, is this state sucks. My daughter is 100% ready to hunt under proper supervision. Ill probably end up taking her to another state to get her first deer, because of NYs arbitrary age limits. Would all 10 year olds be ready? No, but I think I have a far better idea of what she can and cant handle than some politician that has never spent any time around her, has no idea of her knowledge or skills set.

Do I approve of what these people did? No, but only because it was against the law. The tag thing, yeah, I dont approve of that.

JMO

You realize, while I don't disagree that the problem is you're basically picking and choosing the laws you feel are just.

So my opinion is that it's fine for us to discuss it, we don't need the moral police chiming in about how they've never broken a law. And anyone who even thinks a rule is dumb is unethical.

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[jjb4900]

Jail time eh?

Whole new box to argue but 10 is probably fine for well taught kids, but I worry about the 10 year old who isn't ready or raised proper and shoots a deer.

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I never quite understand why people bring in what they can do out of State into a NYS discussion.....hell, I can legally use prostitutes in Nevada, and smoke pot in Colorado......but still, never quite get their point.

[Five Seasons]

personally I would never let a kid 10-14 out shooting even a pellet or BB gun unsupervised....My kids were raised around guns and bows and they were taught a very healthy respect for them...every weapon is potentially loaded and chambered always...every weapon is potentially blocked...and they were shown pictures many times of what it looks like when someone forgets that...but I would never let them out wondering around to shoot at what ever or even targets...for when counting shots two ears and two eyes are safer than one as far as arrows...well they saw what happens if your equipement fails being out shooting stumps alone when an arrow decides to rip through your wrist isn't a risk I was willing to take.

I can't even count the hikes I went on with my dog with a .22 at that age. Yeah we live in different times but we've encountered yotes and rabid coons.

Picture a young boy hiking the farm across the street with his chocolate lab and his .22 and tell me you'd rather him be inside playing video games. Really picture that young boy and tell me what bothers you about it. Any parent will know if their kid can handle that situation or not.

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[Five Seasons]

If we took into account all possibilities for something going wrong we might as well not leave the house. Well maybe that wouldn't even work with all the dangers in a home.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am with Phade on what this Dad did being totally stupid. But maybe Steve is right. With Dad letting me shoot that squirrel, maybe it is his fault I have turned into the wild outlaw that I am...lol.

I do know one thing and this I can sleep very well knowing. When my daughter turns 21 and has her CC permit. I will know that she can handle a firearms and stands a very good chance at protecting herself. She won't hunt, but loves to shoot. Maybe I should have had her take a squirrel before she had a chance to watch Bambi.

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[WNYBuckHunter]

You realize, while I don't disagree that the problem is you're basically picking and choosing the laws you feel are just.

So my opinion is that it's fine for us to discuss it, we don't need the moral police chiming in about how they've never broken a law. And anyone who even thinks a rule is dumb is unethical.

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Well its my opinion, Im allowed to pick and choose what I state my opinion on, arent I? At the bottom I added "JMO" which stands for Just My Opinion. I dont think I said in there I break this law but not that one, nor did I call anyone unethical.

[gjs4]

I drove a farm truck at 10, shot my first rabbit at about the same age. Both happen to be he fondest memories I have with my dad and grandfather respectively. I will admit both to a court of questioned too. I also rode a four wheeler that say operators should be 16 and older at a lesser age and used a hammer without goggles as described on the safety sticker to post my land and build wood duck boxes for years. If you are going to say that's lawlessness you're right. If you are going to say you're always in compliance you're wrong. Shouldn't be published- but it shouldn't be illegal either. In our world, state and NY hunting culture you're missing the boat if this is your issue.

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[Doc]

I drove a farm truck at 10, shot my first rabbit at about the same age. Both happen to be he fondest memories I have with my dad and grandfather respectively. I will admit both to a court of questioned too. I also rode a four wheeler that say operators should be 16 and older at a lesser age and used a hammer without goggles as described on the safety sticker to post my land and build wood duck boxes for years. If you are going to say that's lawlessness you're right. If you are going to say you're always in compliance you're wrong. Shouldn't be published- but it shouldn't be illegal either. In our world, state and NY hunting culture you're missing the boat if this is your issue.

 

From what I read in most of this thread, what people find disturbing has a lot less to do with the content of the law than the fact that this guy is out there blatantly teaching his kid that game laws are to be ignored and disregarded, and that his teachings are also being backed up by some segment of the community. That attitude toward conservation law and perhaps other laws as well will be carried by that kid (and who knows how many other local kids) throughout his life of hunting. And that is disturbing.

[gjs4]

Ever jaywalked Doc? Didn't rob a bank after it, did ya?

People who are criticizing how others raise their kids either don't have their own or are doing a worse job than the accused.

Another local hero arrives on the scene in the town of ten...

[growalot]

People who are criticizing how others raise their kids either don't have their own or are doing a worse job than the accused.

 

 

What a foolish conclusion to make.....

[nyantler]

I drove a farm truck at 10, shot my first rabbit at about the same age. Both happen to be he fondest memories I have with my dad and grandfather respectively. I will admit both to a court of questioned too. I also rode a four wheeler that say operators should be 16 and older at a lesser age and used a hammer without goggles as described on the safety sticker to post my land and build wood duck boxes for years. If you are going to say that's lawlessness you're right. If you are going to say you're always in compliance you're wrong. Shouldn't be published- but it shouldn't be illegal either. In our world, state and NY hunting culture you're missing the boat if this is your issue.

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Well geez... you doing all those things at a young age really does put things in perspective.. that changes my mind totally... I mean if you did illegal stuff when you were a kid it must be fine for everyone else... just the fond memories alone makes me want to support lawlessness... and the part about the hammer and safety glasses is epic... kind of opens my eyes to laws that I suddenly don't agree with... I could have created so many good memories with my kids when they were younger by stealing all the things they wanted for Christmas that I couldn't afford... and I certainly will feel better now about climbing the pole in front of the house to steal my cable TV... or running an extension cord to my neighbors to get free electricity... you have made me realize how I have been missing the boat all these years,

 

 

Psst... I have to admit I did remove one of those tags off my mattress as a kid, so I suppose it is ok if some guy lets his underage kid shoot a deer then tag it illegally. I can't believe how easy it is to justify lawlessness... all you have to do is just say you broke the law once and it makes everything else fair game as well.