interesting poll

[G-Man]

An earn a buck in high doe populated areas would work but, the dec doesn't have the ability to change back after the population is back in check, wmu areas are to big to be effectively managed,let alone the whole state under a single plan.

[dbHunterNY]

See i am not sure this is correct. If 1 doe was shot in place of the yearling buck. Shot by the desperate hunter on Dec 1st because he has that tag and his holding out for a big buck that did not pan out,,after already shooting a yearling in early season.would help the doe take in those areas. So really in some areas a 1 buck rule would make some tag more does if they want meat.

 

you're right in that it could work that way but it'll only work well enough.  a lot will do as you said and shoot a doe and continue to hold out for their one buck throughout the season.  however, many hunters will settle once the season gets closer to an end.  that one buck could and most likely will be a younger deer as that's what's around right now.  you shoot what you see and usually see what you shoot.  DEC has stated that their objective is to protect yearling bucks.  if they're planning on doing something with a goal in mind then just do it and don't jerk around.  why would you put something in place that only protects some compared to almost all.  if you pass yearlings and shoot 2.5 year old and older bucks, you will see them year after year.  especially if everyone is your WMU are doing the same.  sure some will be bent at first but they'll get over it when the hunting is better do to a better managed deer herd.  if it doesn't work then fine, figure it out, and try something different.  many groups and states have already done the homework for them.  they just have to act.

[josephmrtn]

Come on! U guys don't support a shorter season?! ???? I'd be 200% in favor if cutting gun season down to a 2 week window and extending bow season another month

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[Culvercreek hunt club]

it's not about protecting more deer, just the right deer. lottery systems are more for herd populations with lower numbers, such that you can't have over the counter tags for whomever wants to buy them. I mean I know places like Kansas do it but they have a much larger demand to hunt there. in those states the vast majority of hunters are passing younger deer voluntarily. I think our situation in NY is different.

I am not talking about protecting I go all deer. If we are that far out of whack a buck lottery draw will allow less buck take. Take whatever you want but the buck Harvey numbers will be controlled by area. And I would get Kansas has no where near the hunter numbers that NY does

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Come on! U guys don't support a shorter season?! I'd be 200% in favor if cutting gun season down to a 2 week window and extending bow season another month

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How would you have liked that Joe before you now hunted?

[josephmrtn]

I've always thought gun season was kinda long Culver esp compared to most other states... However your right before I knew how awesome bow hunting was I'd prob have put up a stink about having only 2 weeks

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[jjb4900]

like I threw out there earlier, and as wacky as it may have sounded....why not go to your regular tag is for a doe and the buck tag go to a lottery system like they do now with doe tags?.....if the area calls for it, you can get two.

[Doc]

Everybody worries about how long our gun season is. From what shooting I have heard in recent years, anytime after opening weekend is only sporadically used anyway. I think there comes a time when you could add a couple weeks onto the gun season and still not impact he take significantly. I am beginning to think that most hunters completely lose interest after opening day. Even Thanksgiving day is just a shell of what it used to be. I wouldn't get too concerned about the length of NYS's gun season. I don't think it makes a bit of difference one way or the other.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Everybody worries about how long our gun season is. From what shooting I have heard in recent years, anytime after opening weekend is only sporadically used anyway. I think there comes a time when you could add a couple weeks onto the gun season and still not impact he take significantly. I am beginning to think that most hunters completely lose interest after opening day. Even Thanksgiving day is just a shell of what it used to be. I wouldn't get too concerned about the length of NYS's gun season. I don't think it makes a bit of difference one way or the other.

Yup and like 10% of the hunters that harvest all the deer. Some guys could have a pocket full of tags and 6 months and still not get it done. When they get pressured that long even the ones on land that can get hunted, they go underground. The others go on off limits property. Split season would be like giving us 3 or 4 "Opening Days" the deer would calm back down some and the games can continue.

[The_Real_TCIII]

In my humble opinion we don't need any rule change to improve buck hunting, just more enforcement. More boots on the ground. I think poaching does way more damage than people think and the odds of getting caught are statistically zero. I'd gladly pay more for my license if it went directly to hiring more officers

[nyantler]

I don't know why this stuff flies over your head. You have proven to be a pretty bright person, but equating a poll conducted online from a small time newspaper to one that Cornell is doing seems foolish.

 

Random selection doesn't happen by random, if that makes sense. The info they get back is going to be based on scientific data - they have a subset IDed, the response rate is then weighted and you get data that is representative of the population based on upon the preset markers that segregated them (say for example, landowner, region, age, whatever).

LOL.. what you just described is how every egghead scientist would explain their own random poll... when really its just a random poll just like the NY Outdoors News Poll, just sent out by so called scientists that think they're smarter than the rest of us. I've been at deer forums with rooms full of these so called scientists from all over NY... believe me, a piece of paper from your local college may designate you a scientist, but it doesn't necessarily make you any more credible as an expert on any subject. I would trust a poll taken by deer hunters way more than one taken by the egghead NY biologists.

[phade]

I agree that the DEC is not doing a great job. I also agre we as hunters are not doing a great job. The DEC needs to have a good model and high hunter engagement.

 

There are so many things I can do here at work if employee engagement wasn't important - I'd hate to work for some of the people in this thread. It appears alot of people on this thread seem to forget a model that works for the DEC also has to have a fairly high engagement rate for hunters.

[phade]

LOL.. what you just described is how every egghead scientist would explain their own random poll... when really its just a random poll just like the NY Outdoors News Poll, just sent out by so called scientists that think they're smarter than the rest of us. I've been at deer forums with rooms full of these so called scientists from all over NY... believe me, a piece of paper from your local college may designate you a scientist, but it doesn't necessarily make you any more credible as an expert on any subject. I would trust a poll taken by deer hunters way more than one taken by the egghead NY biologists.

 

Ignoarance is bliss, especially when you trust the inmates to run the prison.

 

I see alot of "them vs. us" in this thread, and also a lot of "its them not us" and not so much "we have some degree of accountability in this situation." Then it's backed up by posts like yours. Sad commentary on the state of hunting as a whole. Change this from deer hunting to heart surgery, and I think your tone changes when you are on the operating table pretty quickly.

Edited January 27, 2015 by phade

[nyantler]

I agree that the DEC is not doing a great job. I also agre we as hunters are not doing a great job. The DEC needs to have a good model and high hunter engagement.

 

There are so many things I can do here at work if employee engagement wasn't important - I'd hate to work for some of the people in this thread. It appears alot of people on this thread seem to forget a model that works for the DEC also has to have a fairly high engagement rate for hunters.

Agreed.. and probably the reason why it would be hard for this state to emulate any other state in it's attempt at better deer management... our hunter population is fickle at best, with a healthy dose of apathy and uneducated thrown in for good measure.

[phade]

Agreed.. and probably the reason why it would be hard for this state to emulate any other state in it's attempt at better deer management... our hunter population is fickle at best, with a healthy dose of apathy and uneducated thrown in for good measure.

 

Our hunters are as equally incapable of logical, rational, organized decision-making as any other state. The dysfunctionality is the same across the board. Whether Ohio, IL, or NY.

 

The stereotypical profile of a hunter in any whitetail dominant state is the same.

[nyantler]

Our hunters are as equally incapable of logical, rational, organized decision-making as any other state. The dysfunctionality is the same across the board. Whether Ohio, IL, or NY.

 

The stereotypical profile of a hunter in any whitetail dominant state is the same.

Yeah I suppose you're right... deer management can be a challenge anywhere in the US. I guess our problem might be that we are so far behind the 8 ball it makes it difficult to get footing for a good plan or plans that benefit all NY herds.

[phade]

Yeah I suppose you're right... deer management can be a challenge anywhere in the US. I guess our problem might be that we are so far behind the 8 ball it makes it difficult to get footing for a good plan or plans that benefit all NY herds.

 

100% agree, spot on point there about the 8-ball situation, and I would add not just the herds, but one that hunters can at least reasonable support and buy into. That makes it pretty low odds of success in my book.

[First-light]

because we are so diverse in the way we hunt and the end game is for each individual is different. 

[G-Man]

I don't understand why every one keeps saying we're behind the 8 ball in management in nys. We have deer and a lot of them, big bucks? Having a bunch doesn't make it any easier to kill one. So the only problem I see Is unrealistic hopes of media influenced hunters IN terms of big bucks taken. I mean they watch the,shows buy all the crap they advertise they use,even buy and plant that food plot stuff they do, guess the fault lies with state management of deer cause them big ones should be falling at my feet. That's the problem imo

[phade]

I don't understand why every one keeps saying we're behind the 8 ball in management in nys. We have deer and a lot of them, big bucks? Having a bunch doesn't make it any easier to kill one. So the only problem I see Is unrealistic hopes of media influenced hunters IN terms of big bucks taken. I mean they watch the,shows buy all the crap they advertise they use,even buy and plant that food plot stuff they do, guess the fault lies with state management of deer cause them big ones should be falling at my feet. That's the problem imo

 

Why do so many people believe that being behind the 8 ball means having lots of deer and big bucks?

[dbHunterNY]

I am not talking about protecting I go all deer. If we are that far out of whack a buck lottery draw will allow less buck take. Take whatever you want but the buck Harvey numbers will be controlled by area. And I would get Kansas has no where near the hunter numbers that NY does

 

thinking about it and how well it'd work would be dependent on a couple things.  one thing to consider is you're letting a lottery winner take whatever buck.  so you have no control over what age class is taken.  you're instead looking at it as i want to give out this number of buck tags based on how many deer are in each WMU and how many bucks compared to doe there are. then after each season have a way to assess numbers of each to know if more or less need to be handed out.  aside from a check station there's no way to get this information.  they couldn't rely on hunter surveys because most will pass on what they observe once the season has started which is skewed info.

 

another big problem is without education and being specific in DEC's needs of us hunters as management tools, it's a temporary band aid.  once the buck population catches up a lottery might be not applicable.  as you allow more tags hunters are still taking what they see 1.5 yr old or not with no concept of cause and effect.  hunters need to know what they're doing, why they're doing it, and at some point accept it.

 

another problem that i said to ignore is hunters acceptance toward the management tool used (the lottery).  lotteries from what i hear are less excepted.  especially after you just told that land owner the pays 5 figures worth of taxes a year he can't even have a chance at shooting a buck this year.  which may or may not be ok.  depends if there's another way that works just as well that would more readily accepted.

 

 

[NFA-ADK]

attempts at population control through buck harvest is short term at best. True population control is only achieved through doe harvest. If specific areas have uncontrollable, high numbers then processes/programs like the use in 8C should be implemented. I still assert that the biggest hurdle to controlling/maintaining the populations in the out of control areas is Access, Access, Access.

 

Agree 100% but doe do not damage tree trunks and other farm plants like bucks hence the land owners want them taken out.  More about damage control than anything else.

 

Access to the land the deer inhabit is a huge hurtle!!!  But on LI we are making progress with getting better access.  More and more people are signing up to have bow hunters manage the deer.  Unfortunately it is not always in high population areas that need it.

 

 My home town has just opened up some area's to hunt but the deer population is all ready getting out of control.  I am predicting that within 5 years it will be a major issue.  Then they can try snipers like every other town that failed and say it does not work. 

[dbHunterNY]

I don't understand why every one keeps saying we're behind the 8 ball in management in nys. We have deer and a lot of them, big bucks? Having a bunch doesn't make it any easier to kill one. So the only problem I see Is unrealistic hopes of media influenced hunters IN terms of big bucks taken. I mean they watch the,shows buy all the crap they advertise they use,even buy and plant that food plot stuff they do, guess the fault lies with state management of deer cause them big ones should be falling at my feet. That's the problem imo

 

it's more about a sustainable deer herd that can better deal with natural causes to their demise.  an unbalanced herd can't recover as quickly numbers wise from things like disease, predators moving in, over harvest by hunters, and harsh winters die offs.  also related to that a lot of deer is no good if the habitat can't support them, forms of native browse the deer depend on get wiped out and never recover to grow back.  now deer are more screwed going into next year with land that can hold less than the year before regardless of what management you do with deer.  also a healthier balanced herd will allow more harvest pressure year after year because they're more productive.  quantity doesn't mean quality but you'll get consumable quantity from quality.  would it be different if we said we're behind the 8 ball when it comes to education?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

thinking about it and how well it'd work would be dependent on a couple things.  one thing to consider is you're letting a lottery winner take whatever buck.  so you have no control over what age class is taken.  you're instead looking at it as i want to give out this number of buck tags based on how many deer are in each WMU and how many bucks compared to doe there are. then after each season have a way to assess numbers of each to know if more or less need to be handed out.  aside from a check station there's no way to get this information.  they couldn't rely on hunter surveys because most will pass on what they observe once the season has started which is skewed info. This is what they do every year to adjust Doe take in the permit system isn't it?

 

another big problem is without education and being specific in DEC's needs of us hunters as management tools, it's a temporary band aid.  once the buck population catches up a lottery might be not applicable.  as you allow more tags hunters are still taking what they see 1.5 yr old or not with no concept of cause and effect.  hunters need to know what they're doing, why they're doing it, and at some point accept it.

 

another problem that i said to ignore is hunters acceptance toward the management tool used (the lottery).  lotteries from what i hear are less excepted.  especially after you just told that land owner the pays 5 figures worth of taxes a year he can't even have a chance at shooting a buck this year.  which may or may not be ok.  depends if there's another way that works just as well that would more readily accepted. You are doing the same thing with AR's to a lot of hunters, so what is the biggie, let them deal with it.

 

 

 

[Doc]

Yes, even within my own lifetime, I have seen extremes of the DEC being a day late and a dollar short even with all the touting of their statistical perfection and success. In the late 80's I watched deer in Honeoye dying off by the hundreds in the Honeoye yards because the herd size had been allowed to get so big ( a disgusting scene I will never forget. I also saw situations where all that was over-reacted to and large areas of the state were struck with deer "shortages". The populations seem to see-saw back and forth in what for all the world really looks like simply over-reaction in one direction, followed by over-reaction in the other direction. Yes that's one way of managing .... lol. But that is not the kind of preemptive statistical management that they are advertising. That is why I say that they have a lot more work to do on the fundamentals of population control before they start blowing resources on all the bells and whistles that hunters are lobbying for. Basics first. get it right and then move on.