Churches Should Discourage Hunting

[Curmudgeon]

I came home from the mountains to find this in this weekend's edition of The Daily Star, Oneonta, NY. It speaks for itself.

 

 

Churches Should Discourage Hunting
BY DAVID IRVING
Local Commentary

 

The spirit of hunting permeates the Catskill mountain region so deeply that even some pastors and Christian organizations claim that hunting is a good Christian activity.

 

That  may come as a shock for many people. How does killing animals coincide with compassion, the central ingredient in Christianity? The great Christian theologian and Nobel  laureate Albert Schweitzer wrote that “Compassion, in which all ethics must take root, can only attain its full breadth and depth if it embraces all living creatures and does not limit  itself to humankind.”

The words are powerful and persuasive. Yet, some people are so filled with the thirst to hunt, they insist it  is Christian. Moreover, the phenomenon turns out to be not just local  but national in scope. One pastor in Minnesota even claims it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus would shoot a deer.

 

The theological basis for these claims is practically  nonexistent. The best argument advocates make is that because animals were sacrificed in Old Testament times it is OK to hunt them today. They ignore that Isaiah called sacrifice an abomination and that Jesus said: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.”

 

Our pastors seem unable to muster any opposition to the Christian hunting hypothesis, leaving their congregations and their children without guidance about the rights and  wrongs of hunting. It is not a difficult problem. Can anyone really picture Jesus summoning the little children unto him to teach them how to kill animals?

 

Killing animals is addictive and the cruelty involved cannot be denied. It is cruel to shoot an animal that flees wounded into the underbrush and there in great pain dies alone of starvation and thirst. There, it may also be attacked and devoured alive by other predators because it cannot defend itself.

Nor do hunters have a clue whether they have wounded a targeted animal if it dashes into the woods in a flash, nor do they know or apparently care whether the animal may be a female who is pregnant or who has babies waiting who will starve and thirst to death or be set upon by predators if she does not return to protect them.

 

Words scarcely exist to describe the abhorrent practice of putting down steel-jawed leg hold-traps, which are so barbaric that trapped animals break off their teeth and gnaw off their limbs Churches  should discourage hunting in an attempt to escape them. The same applies to drowning traps and canned hunts, which are also impossible to escape. Is the environment just described a place where compassion has a home?

 

It is long past time for our pastors and churches who have not done so — and few have — to fulfill their responsibilities to their communities and their congregations by taking a stand on hunting. Are they for it? At least some pro-hunting churches have the temerity to say where they stand. Are they against it? Then let them stop concealing it and speak out loud and clear. Are they in the middle somewhere? Let them define where it is so their congregations know who they are..

 

Only when the pastors take a stand can their congregations see whether they are being offered the spiritual guidance they require for living the best Christian life possible. To be silent is to acquiesce to the harm that can arise from different aspects of hunting.

 

This includes teaching children that it is OK to kill animals  when it is well grounded in the psychiatric literature that killing animals can be a prelude to sadistic and criminal behavior. Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert DeSalvo, and Ted Bundy all got  their start this way. Charles Manson said the only thing he ever killed was a chicken when he was a child.

 

The rising consciousness of people was recently on display as 1.2 million people signed the petition Justice for Cecil (the lion) in a world-wide protest against the same kind of cruelty in hunting described here. This is the trend as people become  more aware of their responsibilities to animals for the betterment of the world.

 

The pastors and the churches need to give up their resistance to the new consciousness and embrace it for here they will find the answer to their declining memberships and dwindling relevance to their communities. Unfortunately, too often they seem afraid to alienate their members who are hunters and so they remain speechless.

 

The members of the congregations also have their role to play. They can fulfill that best by insisting that their pastors stand up and state where they stand.

 

David Irving, of Sidney, is the President of the Lamb of God Institute Against Cruelty to Animals and the author of “The Protein Myth”; “Is It Christian to Hunt”; “Trappersville USA”;
and other books.

 

[Skillet]

Wow. That's all kinds of stupid.

"Get up, Peter. Kill and eat".

[RangerClay]

Wow. That's all kinds of stupid.

"Get up, Peter. Kill and eat".

 

Very good Acts 10:13

 

There many more like that.  Memorize some of these when you meet weirdo like Mr. Irving.

 

http://www.openbible.info/topics/hunting

[Deerthug]

Perhaps Mr Irving forgot this passage from the Bible.

Isaac said, "Behold now, I am old and I do not know the day of my death. 3"Now then, please take your gear, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me; 4and prepare a savory dish for me such as I love, and bring it to me that I may eat, so that my soul may bless you before I die."…

[Larry]

Hunters have a saint:Hubert, Patron Saint of Hunters
By ©Mitch Ballard 

Jagermeister Label.
Jagermeister label showing stag with
cross suspended between antlers.     

Some historical scholars estimate the year was 705 A.D. while others claim it was 656.  Regardless, St. Hubert, the Patron Saint of Hunters was born in the European city of Maastricht of French nationality.  All the scholars agree Hubert died at Fura (the modern city of Tervueren) in the province of Brabant on May 30, 727 A.D.

Hubert was the oldest son of Bertrand, Duke of Aquintaine and grandson of Charibert, King of Toulouse - a descendant of The Great Pharamond.

Hubert was reportedly a great lover of pleasure and his chief passion was the chase, to which he devoted nearly all his time.  According to the legend, Hubert was afield the morning of Good Friday (while the faithful were crowding into church) and he was participating in the chase of a deer on horseback with his famous hounds.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states: As he was pursuing a magnificent stag, and in a clearing in the forest, the animal stopped and turned.  Hubert was astounded at perceiving a crucifix suspended between its antlers, while he heard a voice from the figure of Christ say, "Hubert, unless you turn to the Lord, and lead a holy life, you shall quickly fall into the abyss of Hell!"

Hubert dismounted immediately from his horse, fell prostrate on the ground and asked, "Lord, what would you have me do?"

He immediately received the reply, "Go and seek Lambert and he will instruct you."

At the time, Lambert was the Bishop of Maastricht, who kindly received Hubert and became his spiritual advisor.  Complicating matters even further, Hubert lost his wife during the childbirth of their first son shortly after his vision in the woods.  Hubert decided to renounce all his honors, titles and military rank.  Plus he relinquished his birthright as heir to the Duchy of Aquintaine, giving it to his younger brother Eudon, whom he also made the godfather of his infant son, Floribert.

Another version of the legend reports Lambert taught Hubert self discipline by forcing him to live alone as a hermit in the Ardennes (the Great French Forest) for a while.

After distributing all his wealth among the poor, Hubert entered upon his studies for the priesthood and was soon ordained.  Shortly afterward he became one of Lambert's chief associates in the administration of his Diocese.  Upon the advice of Lambert, Hubert made a pilgrimage to Rome and during his absence, Lambert was assassinated, but that's another story in itself.  At the same hour as the Pope was giving an audience to Hubert, the Pope was distracted by a vision of Lambert's murder and on the spot he appointed Hubert as the new Bishop, replacing Lambert.  Hubert returned to become the 31st Bishop of Maastricht (and the first Bishop of Liege) and was eventually described as the "Apostle of the Ardennes."

According to the legend, idolatry still lingered in the Ardennes Forest and "risking his life, Hubert penetrated the remote lurking places of paganism in his pursuit of souls and finally brought about the abolishment of the worship of idols in his neighborhood."

Eventually, Hubert went to dedicate a new church but had another vision, this one of his impending death.  He continued anyway, preaching a valedictory sermon and fell sick almost immediately.  Within six days, Hubert died while repeating The Lord's Prayer.  The Roman Catholic Church has designated his feast day as November 3, appropriately enough since the rut is usually at or near its peak by then.

Hubert reportedly also worked several miracles during his life by exorcising those possessed by demons and curing a case of rabies after making the sign of the cross over the victim.  Hubert is also the patron saint for archers, forest workers, furriers and trappers, hunters and huntsmen as well as hunting as a profession.  He is also the patron saint for mathematicians, machinists, precision instrument makers and smelters along with those stricken with hydrophobia (rabies) and dogs.

In a related topic, bloodhounds (which are well known for their scenting ability and commonly acknowledged as ancestors of many different hunting dog breeds) reportedly originated from a cross between the black hounds of St. Hubert and the white hounds of the House of Talbot - both of which are from the Ardennes.  Records from the House of Talbot provide further credence to this theory and tradition indicates many bloodhounds in Europe are still known and registered as the "Ohien de St. Hubert."

Hubert's representation is a stag bearing a cross or crucifix between its antlers: Hence the Master Hunter's (or Jagermeister's) Badge of Honor.

Jagermeister Bottle.In fact the bottle cap on an imported bottle of Jagermeister herbal liqueur is a duplication of the Master Hunter's badge.  The bottle's label also has the same representation of a stag with a shining cross, suspended between the antlers, as the brand's logo.  Surrounding the label is a German phrase, which loosely translated means: "This is the hunter's badge of honor, which he protects and wears as his shield, to guard, while in the fine and honorable profession of hunting; which also honors the Creator and his creations."

Literally translated, Jagermeister means Master Hunter in the German language.  The term is applied to those who have rightfully earned the respect of their peers and regular citizens as well.  German heritage requires much more of hunters than simply passing an eight-hour safety course before being issued a license.  In that country it is a privilege to go afield with a firearm and the sport requires many seasons of apprenticeship.

Following four years of apprenticeship a hunter is then allowed to take the exam for Jagermeister certification.  This distinct traditional heritage is from the country that also brought us the legend of Bambi.  You'll recall the bad guys in the original Bambi story were "poachers," not hunters.  There is no anti-hunting social agenda in Germany since the sport is highly regulated and steeped in tradition.  Hunters are welcomed everywhere.

German hunters also participate in extensive rituals following the death of a big game animal taken while hunting, along with other cultural heritages including a toast to the fallen animal itself.  Caveman instincts bond all hunters when they're in the field - no matter what modern civilization has done to each person.

Quite possibly those centuries-old traditions are what has evolved into the North American big game hunter's need to participate in some form of ceremony following the kill.  Maybe they are unsure of just where or how it started, but many hunters (including Native Americans) repeat a prayer, or chant, or simply express their joy with a shout of excitement after the shot is confirmed and the animal is down.

Anything from smearing the blood of a freshly killed deer on your face (similar to war paint) to saying a brief prayer of thanks to loud whoops, or simply firm handshakes all around pretty much describe the range of activities surrounding a freshly killed deer or elk here in America.  It certainly is a rite of passage for a youngster to take their first big game animal and it's an experience they'll never forget.

Regardless, giving thanks to the dead animal, and to God, for the resulting nourishment must be what it's all about.  Respect for the fallen, and seeking a blessing for the meat, and honoring the death of one of God's creatures must be the catalyst for these traditions.  Of course tagging fresh venison is the object, but preparing for and participating in the hunt is almost as rewarding.  Activities surrounding the hunt as well as the camaraderie involved with the "tribe" provide untold pleasure as it creates lasting memories.

It is very inappropriate to desecrate, actually violating the sacredness, of any mounted animal with sunglasses, hats, or cigarettes shoved into a taxidermist's work of art.  Humoring people who've never participated in the honor of taking a wild game animal's life is disgusting.  Domesticated animals provide suitable protein but they don't enjoy the freedom of the wildness experienced by game animals during their lives in the forests and fields.  Our teeth and stomachs convert that deer's living energy into our own and we owe it much deserved respect.

So, if you wish, say a prayer of thanksgiving or ask a blessing of St. Hubert when you kill your next deer or elk; just remember to honor the death of the wild animal and utilize the meat with respect. It died so that you might live.

 

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Credits:
Hubert, Patron Saint of Hunters - Written by © Mitch Ballard; contributing writer for ESPN2's outdoor television program, "NaturalGear's Wildlife Quest."  Used by permission of Mitch Ballard.  Article may not be copied or reproduced without prior written permission of the author.

Wildlife Quest Productions, Inc.
P.O. Box 470684
Tulsa, OK 74147
http://www.wildlifequest.tv/

Jagermeister label and bottle photographs by Eric Shindelbower.  Thanks goes to Ben Minor for his assistance; without his help this web page would not have been possible.

Jagermeister banner.

 

Background pattern courtesy of ©

Web page design and content - Eric Shindelbower

[grampy]

PITA and people like Mr.Irving and the anti hunting establishment, will use religion or any other crutch they can to farther their misguided views. That are not based on scientifically or biologically proven facts that regulated hunting actually improves the sustainability of species of animals that are hunted. And even improves the habitat of non hunted species as well. For the benefit of all wild things.

Make no mistake, that people like Mr. Irving are very organized and a threat to hunting, and will use any and all propaganda to farther their agenda. That is why now, more than ever, hunter's must not quibble amongst ourselves. We need to stand strong together for the sake of huntings future generations.

[Mr VJP]

Is fishing also a sin?  He calls it killing, when it is hunting.  I doubt he knows the difference.

 

[wolc123]

Fishing is only a sin when it is "catch and release". Jesus's first followers were fisherman. At one time He actually helped them fill two boats with fish (for consumption) to the point where they were on the verge of foundering. Another time, as reported in all four Gospels, He provided thousands of fish to feed masses of people, all by Himself. I draw no line between killing fish and eating them and killing animals and eating them. That is what God created them for - to feed people.

Edited August 31, 2015 by wolc123

[5.9cummins]

Hubert was the oldest son of Bertrand, Duke of Aquintaine and grandson of Charibert, King of Toulouse - a descendant of The Great Pharamond.

Hubert was reportedly a great lover of pleasure and his chief passion was the chase, to which he devoted nearly all his time.  According to the legend, Hubert was afield the morning of Good Friday (while the faithful were crowding into church) and he was participating in the chase of a deer on horseback with his famous hounds.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states: As he was pursuing a magnificent stag, and in a clearing in the forest, the animal stopped and turned.  Hubert was astounded at perceiving a crucifix suspended between its antlers, while he heard a voice from the figure of Christ say, "Hubert, unless you turn to the Lord, and lead a holy life, you shall quickly fall into the abyss of Hell!"

Hubert dismounted immediately from his horse, fell prostrate on the ground and asked, "Lord, what would you have me do?"

He immediately received the reply, "Go and seek Lambert and he will instruct you."

At the time, Lambert was the Bishop of Maastricht, who kindly received Hubert and became his spiritual advisor.  Complicating matters even further, Hubert lost his wife during the childbirth of their first son shortly after his vision in the woods.  Hubert decided to renounce all his honors, titles and military rank.  Plus he relinquished his birthright as heir to the Duchy of Aquintaine, giving it to his younger brother Eudon, whom he also made the godfather of his infant son, Floribert.

Another version of the legend reports Lambert taught Hubert self discipline by forcing him to live alone as a hermit in the Ardennes (the Great French Forest) for a while.

After distributing all his wealth among the poor, Hubert entered upon his studies for the priesthood and was soon ordained.  Shortly afterward he became one of Lambert's chief associates in the administration of his Diocese.  Upon the advice of Lambert, Hubert made a pilgrimage to Rome and during his absence, Lambert was assassinated, but that's another story in itself.  At the same hour as the Pope was giving an audience to Hubert, the Pope was distracted by a vision of Lambert's murder and on the spot he appointed Hubert as the new Bishop, replacing Lambert.  Hubert returned to become the 31st Bishop of Maastricht (and the first Bishop of Liege) and was eventually described as the "Apostle of the Ardennes."

According to the legend, idolatry still lingered in the Ardennes Forest and "risking his life, Hubert penetrated the remote lurking places of paganism in his pursuit of souls and finally brought about the abolishment of the worship of idols in his neighborhood."

Eventually, Hubert went to dedicate a new church but had another vision, this one of his impending death.  He continued anyway, preaching a valedictory sermon and fell sick almost immediately.  Within six days, Hubert died while repeating The Lord's Prayer.  The Roman Catholic Church has designated his feast day as November 3, appropriately enough since the rut is usually at or near its peak by then.

Hubert reportedly also worked several miracles during his life by exorcising those possessed by demons and curing a case of rabies after making the sign of the cross over the victim.  Hubert is also the patron saint for archers, forest workers, furriers and trappers, hunters and huntsmen as well as hunting as a profession.  He is also the patron saint for mathematicians, machinists, precision instrument makers and smelters along with those stricken with hydrophobia (rabies) and dogs.

 

Saint Hubert Pray for us.

 

[fasteddie]

Early Vegetarian Hunters

 

 

[Five Seasons]

I've never had a problem with anyone who doesn't want to hunt or even isn't a big fan of hunting. I become quickly annoyed and agitated when someone wants to change what I believe in and what I'm legally allowed to do.

 

Religion will always be used as a puppet and here is a classic example of it being used to push an agenda.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Unless he is a Vegan his argument holds no merit what so ever. It is OK to pay someone to "kill" for you but not OK to do it yourself?  

 

I had a Priest growing up that used to tell my mother to not give me a hard time about skipping mass on Saturday or Sunday for hunting, because he believed doing that with my Father and being outdoors. I was as close or closer to God than in church. I don't think she ever really bought it but it did get me a pass...lol

[5.9cummins]

Unless he is a Vegan his argument holds no merit what so ever. It is OK to pay someone to "kill" for you but not OK to do it yourself?  

 

I had a Priest growing up that used to tell my mother to not give me a hard time about skipping mass on Saturday or Sunday for hunting, because he believed doing that with my Father and being outdoors. I was as close or closer to God than in church. I don't think she ever really bought it but it did get me a pass...lol

 

Let me guess that was 1960 / 70'sh time frame? He advised you to commit a mortal sin. Presits like that are the reason the church is in the state it is now.

 

I quit hunting Sunday morning to set an example for my kids and that was before I even entered the church.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Let me guess that was 1960 / 70'sh time frame? He advised you to commit a mortal sin. Presits like that are the reason the church is in the state it is now.

 

I quit hunting Sunday morning to set an example for my kids and that was before I even entered the church.

80's,. And a Priest like that was probably one reason I stayed in the church as long as I did. It was the other devout hypocrites that I ran a crossed in  the church later on in life that convinced me to bow out. The churches inflexibility and blind hard line is what has cost them.

[NFA-ADK]

This is funny because I have hunted in the back of a few churches with permission from them. 

[genesee_mohican]

That is why now, more than ever, hunter's must not quibble amongst ourselves. We need to stand strong together for the sake of huntings future generations.

 

Good point bud

[Five Seasons]

I had a Priest growing up that used to tell my mother to not give me a hard time about skipping mass on Saturday or Sunday for hunting, because he believed doing that with my Father and being outdoors. I was as close or closer to God than in church. I don't think she ever really bought it but it did get me a pass...lol

 

born and raised an every Sunday going catholic. I still go as an adult but not as much as I should. I've always believed personally, and still do that religion of any kind is about being a good person. And I would absolutely agree with your priest that spending time with your father and alone with your thought in nature will absolutely do wonders for a child's sole.

[DirtTime]

Let me guess that was 1960 / 70'sh time frame? He advised you to commit a mortal sin. Presits like that are the reason the church is in the state it is now.

 

I quit hunting Sunday morning to set an example for my kids and that was before I even entered the church.

What "Mortal Sin" was committed?

Ever use a condom? Pre-marital sex? Get really mad at someone? Those are mortal sins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin

 

 

 

 

Religion is loosing ground due to things just like the OP thread ( not the poster, the article ), people using it to be a martyr. Americans just do not like to be told what to do or what not to do in moral aspects. We know what's right and wrong and most follow that set of rules because most are actual laws as well. When religion is used in this context it's more a sin then not going to church, you are trying to peoples faith as a weapon. I don't see how that will help get you into Heaven. America can't even decide which Faith is the right one, how many do we have?

 

I don't see God slapping your hand for being a hunter or for fishing. I see God slapping your @$$ for using His word to propel your own personal goals.

 

Just my point of view on this topic.

[5.9cummins]

80's,. And a Priest like that was probably one reason I stayed in the church as long as I did. It was the other devout hypocrites that I ran a crossed in  the church later on in life that convinced me to bow out. The churches inflexibility and blind hard line is what has cost them.

 

I can understand that you would stay for compassion but I cant say Im supprised you left. Ive met a lot of Catholics who have left the church and had similar stories. The largest Christian group in America are Catholics. The second largest group are fallen away Catholics. Preists are called to imitate Christ and die to one self for the sake of the people. Sometimes they dont like that idea and only want to focus on what wont ruffle feathers. Unfortunatly that is becoming fewer and  fewer topics these days.

 

If you look at the preists comming out of seminary now they are extremely orthodox. One joke thats told at seminary is "we didnt go into the preisthood to be celibit social workers". They are young and the parishes they lead are vibrant, young, large famileis and they are growing. I think thats because they follow Jesus and are not afraid to pick up there crosses.

 

Ironically that inflexibility is one of the big draws to the Church for Converts like me. Your not going to last 2000 years if you compromise.

[5.9cummins]

born and raised an every Sunday going catholic. I still go as an adult but not as much as I should. I've always believed personally, and still do that religion of any kind is about being a good person. And I would absolutely agree with your priest that spending time with your father and alone with your thought in nature will absolutely do wonders for a child's sole.

 

I wasnt raised with any faith. My parents taught me morals (all be it with a relative world view), I had manners, got good grades, was polite. Everyone always told my mom "your son is so great why didnt you have any more kids". Its possible to raise that type of child without religion but i would sure say religion isnt going to hurt your chances getting there.

 

And my point isnt that he shouldnt spend time with his dad in the woods. He absolutly should. My point being is as Catholics we are mandated to go to Church on Sunday. If we trully believe that we are recieving Christs body, blood, soul and divinity in the eucharist there is nothing more important. I would be concerned for the priest not Culver. Culver may or may not have believed it but that preist took an oath when he was ordained and telling him to skip Mass on Sunday flys in the faith of what he commited to.

 

And yes the woods will do wonders for a childs soul. Hence why I am re-doubleing my efforts to get my kids outside this year after a two year absence from the woods.

[DirtTime]

Ah crap on a cracker! He's going in order and I must be next and I missed the "Going To Mass" sin. 

[5.9cummins]

What "Mortal Sin" was committed?

Ever use a condom? Pre-marital sex? Get really mad at someone? Those are mortal sins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin

 

 

 

 

Religion is loosing ground due to things just like the OP thread ( not the poster, the article ), people using it to be a martyr. Americans just do not like to be told what to do or what not to do in moral aspects. We know what's right and wrong and most follow that set of rules because most are actual laws as well. When religion is used in this context it's more a sin then not going to church, you are trying to peoples faith as a weapon. I don't see how that will help get you into Heaven. America can't even decide which Faith is the right one, how many do we have?

 

I don't see God slapping your hand for being a hunter or for fishing. I see God slapping your @$$ for using His word to propel your own personal goals.

 

Just my point of view on this topic.

 

Yup, Ive commited more mortal sins than I can count. But thats what confession is for.

 

I wouldnt say that the author of that article is going to martyred in any form, hes not saying anything that popular culture is going to come after him for.

 

Religion is loosing ground because it dosent actually stand for anything anymore. There is no spine to Christianity because everyone creates a Jesus that agrees with them. They pick and choose which passages of the bible support there particular view and then they claim there right. I wouldnt say we know whats right and wrong, we know what we like and dont like, what will draw scorn from our peers and what they will applaud us for. Our laws are based off of group consensus according to whats in fashion. The ultimate sin in our society is to draw a conclusion "to judge". I always find it ironic that in order for someone to say dont judge they must first make a judgment about the other persons judgment.

 

 

There are something like 45,000 protestant denominations at the moment (or 45,001 if you consider the Anglicans upcoming split), 23 Catholic Churches (1 Latin right and 22 Eastern although they are really one because they all recognize the Popes athority), and the Orthodox Churches (not sure how many). Not sure where other faiths stand.

 

I dont see God slapping your hand for being a hunter or for fishing (especially not if your spiritual father "preist" told you to do it). God might have some words but they wont be for Culver they will be for his priest.

 

If your interested here is a good link to an article written by a former baptist turned Catholic on mortal sin which is a little more acurate and indepth than wiki.

 

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/mortal-and-venial-sin

 

I John 5:16-18:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that is not a deadly sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not deadly. There is sin which is deadly; I do not say one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not deadly. We know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who is born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

 

 

[DirtTime]

Ah crap on a cracker! He's going in order and I must be next and I missed the "Going To Mass" sin. 

I was spot on with that one! LOL!

 

 

Religion is the easiest soap box to have kicked out from under you. Catholics can't even stand together as united. There are at least 8 forms, and that's not including all the "Reborn" ones. Perhaps if they could figure that out more people would follow.

Isn't there a passage about Jesus saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"? So, isn't this "Mr. Irving" casting a stone? I have a you trow a rock at me, I will throw one back mentality, if you are throwing rocks at me in Gods name to line your pockets with money! Yes, in a way, that is being a martyr. You are trying to turn people against one another for your own gain. It's just that simple.

 

This part also cracks me up:

David Irving, of Sidney, is the President of the Lamb of God Institute Against Cruelty to Animals 

 

Funny how the part in red is actually sort of an oxymoron. In the beginning did they not sacrifice lambs ( and other animals ) to God by fire? That's pretty cruel to an animal.

 

 

I am not attacking anyone who is religious. Teach your kids about the bible. I support that 100%! Actually, if you teach them enough the Bible will teach you self reliance. Because isn't there even a part in the Bible that states "God helps those who help themselves."?

 

If I want to confess about leaving the toilet seat up, or eating the last stuffed pepper, I will pray and ask forgiveness directly and cut out the middle man.

[Deadhunter25]

I read a few paragraphs and couldnt muster the strength to keep reading.

Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[Deadhunter25]

Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk