QDM is ruining deer hunting

[growalot]

So go figure...I disagree on most of that...select cutting is good practice for loggers...but it is not good habitat management and is now one of the reasons that everyone's crying about no under story...also allow fields to revert back...well some of the first things to grow in such a case, tree wise, is popular( only good under 30 ft tall for grouse...pine and spruce every invasion bush and rugusala rose one can think of...... thorn apples,wild apples and yes lots of maple  but usually more ash..... both of which are fast growing and crowd out other species. Now the above does depend on location...but in the end usually the same out come...in select cuttings bramble will rule the first 4-5 years maybe...then the canopy fills right in. JMO...though home we and everyone around us are on reverting farm lands ....Camp is also reverted farm land...though that land holds very few maple at all and ash was the hard wood with oak and beech  but a select cutting took nearly all the producing wht. oak and what few cherry there were. Now the beech just loved that!...buck thorn decimated the rest of the landscape on us and neighbors. A good combination of clear cut, open forest(combo woods with meadows  and old growth is good management. not just for animals but plant species bugs and amphibians.

[nyantler]

Letting open land grow to wood lands is NOT good deer habitat management all by itself... there are many many factors involved in managing a wildlife habitat so that everything and everyone benefits. Once you have a woodland you have to manage that woodland properly to make it beneficial to whitetail, and make it suitable to hunt in or around..

[upstate]

This is like Deja vu, all over again 

[gjs4]

Replace "deer" in Qdm with "trees and view it as a forest. If you just cut the biggest trees your woods would turn to crap in no time. Lots of work goes into managing a wood lot, invasive species, scrap trees, seasonal hinderences, pests, etc. make sense in that analogy?

the Qdma is just another group making from money from members IMO- but they have a nice magazine. Qdm is just their jacket colors

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[Rhwrhwrhw0426]

The last time I was offended when someone called me a DORK FOLLOWER was the 2nd grade. I'd agree it's hard to kill enough does within a QDM program when you hunt only 3 days a year but I doubt that is enough evidence to condemn everyone who manages land with QDM in mind.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Rhwrhwrhw0426

[Rhwrhwrhw0426]

'Kill groups' sound like 'it's Brown it's down' lingo to me.

[Larry]

_{this is a posting I did a while back.}

_{Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?
We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more, one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.
  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.
  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.
   If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.
   What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.}

[growalot]

Now Larry.... That I will agree with and have been saying it for over 3 years or so on here,,,mentioning ppl like the Drury Bros that actually realized and said in their videos, a sorta Oopppss...That said....This statement has nothing to do with your original one and on that we disagree.

[nyantler]

The last time I was offended when someone called me a DORK FOLLOWER was the 2nd grade. I'd agree it's hard to kill enough does within a QDM program when you hunt only 3 days a year but I doubt that is enough evidence to condemn everyone who manages land with QDM in mind.

If you aren't killing enough does then the plan is not a sound management plan... Because doe harvest is a critical aspect of QDM, if that isn't being done properly then you're really not practicing that management plan. I would also think that most won't have much time the rest of the year to do what is necessary to manage a property with effectiveness if they only have the time to hunt 3 days a year.

[phade]

_{this is a posting I did a while back.}

_{Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?}

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more, one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

   If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

   What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

 

I may have missed it, but what did you prove?

 

That DMAPs and DMPs are available for use and hunters used it? How is that a result of QDM? I see zero correlation to QDM when hunters are simply filling DMPS and DMAPs. The property could not have been in QDM and the same thing could have happened with a brown its down mentality.

[Five Seasons]

Replace "deer" in Qdm with "trees and view it as a forest. If you just cut the biggest trees your woods would turn to crap in no time. Lots of work goes into managing a wood lot, invasive species, scrap trees, seasonal hinderences, pests, etc. make sense in that analogy?

the Qdma is just another group making from money from members IMO- but they have a nice magazine. Qdm is just their jacket colors

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certainly many a hunter has gone poor by paying dues. What's so wrong with a group/club of like minded individuals hunting and practicing land management a certain way? It doesn't hurt you and there's no law making you do the same.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Replace "deer" in Qdm with "trees and view it as a forest. If you just cut the biggest trees your woods would turn to crap in no time. Lots of work goes into managing a wood lot, invasive species, scrap trees, seasonal hinderences, pests, etc. make sense in that analogy?

the Qdma is just another group making from money from members IMO- but they have a nice magazine. Qdm is just their jacket colors

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Its a not for profit, the majority of their income goes into research, political programs, etc etc.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Its a not for profit, the majority of their income goes into research, political programs, etc etc.

Don't confuse him with details

[dbHunterNY]

i know several kids that got free turkey hunting stuff and a successful hunt this past spring.  a nice group of youth 4-H'ers got financial help with their banquet and a nice $700+ dollar gun safe to raffle off.  at the fairs we handed out free tick pullers to tree huggers and other outdoor oriented folk.  gave out some scholarships for kids schooling.  spent some money on printing a crap ton of brochures to spread the word about legislation to increase poaching penalties.  tons more for just this area.  no wonder QDMA needs some money.  What are they thinking?  Maybe they should pay their staff and CEO a ton, buy bunch of TV network commercial time, club a baby whitetail fawn over the head, and call it an honest effort like most every other non-profit out there today.

[nyantler]

_{this is a posting I did a while back.}

_{Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?}

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more, one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

   If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

   What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

First of all the number of deer seen by any hunter is anecdotal at best in that there are many factors as to why hunters see or don't see deer. Hunting style, stand placement, disruptions by surrounding properties and hunters or just plain terrible hunting practices,. As for your scenario it wouldn't wash under a true QDM managed property because the program is designed to adjust doe harvest based on need in the habitat and wouldn't (or shouldn't ) be still harvesting does in the 5th or 6th year unless there was a reason to do so. Just because  someone claims they are practicing QDM doesn't mean they understand the actual program or are actually following its actual plan. There are many out there that think they are "QDMers" but really only know a fraction of the entire objective and how to go about doing it correctly. You can attack what this guy did but calling it QDM is a stretch... by him or by you. You're problem should be with this guy not QDM or the QDMA. There may be problems with the QDM program but this isn't one of them. If you look at what the QDMA advises in it's plan you will see that they promote exactly what you stated in your last sentence and even give you tips on how to do it.

 

Like I said earlier, some hunters need to go read what the original QDM plan entails... it will enlighten some... even some self professed QDMers

Edited September 18, 2015 by nyantler

[gjs4]

certainly many a hunter has gone poor by paying dues. What's so wrong with a group/club of like minded individuals hunting and practicing land management a certain way? It doesn't hurt you and there's no law making you do the same.

I am a member.

Just stating my opinion. I don't think they've represented out like minded group enough to Albany or the DEC. Youth days and dinners raise dollars- not awareness. Again- they keep getting my $30 so why worry?

Try to learn more and jump to conclusions less

[gjs4]

Its a not for profit, the majority of their income goes into research, political programs, etc etc.

Hey bud.

Actually it's fundraisers...not for profits need profits- but my point with regard to the origination was just feeling like they were one of the few to save us from Jeremy's mad dash of deer eradication without census that we are watching unfold

[ELMER J. FUDD]

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Hey bud.

Actually it's fundraisers...not for profits need profits- but my point with regard to the origination was just feeling like they were one of the few to save us from Jeremy's mad dash of deer eradication without census that we are watching unfold

Membership is growing. Any changes in NY's legislative machine needs numbers to make it happen. I know you live in GRST's region. Stop out at give a hand at one of the out reach events to help those numbers grow and get the message out.

[gjs4]

Helping my fm silly and friends understand hunting is far more helpful than someone else's. I pay my dues, and have for a number of years. You guys don't have to like my take, I am not bashing them- just expressing I feel like they do nothing for deer with regard to the politics/dec aspects of hunting. I belong to a bunch of other groups- they can claim wetlands saved, habitat improvement, etc ..... I laugh looking at the responses here- most are balled up and defensive against my opinion but are too dumb to know I reach out to the dec and at one point was starting a Qdma division here before some personal matters stifled that.

Typical old huntingNY- if you don't agree with us, we will wagon train around you and fling arrows until you quit.

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[nybuckboy]

I'm not gonna get in a pissing war here but I enjoy qmda. Guess what it not city folk either nor do I spend big bucks leasing lots of land. I think you need to differentiate qdm from horn hunters. To me qdm is about a healthy balance herd. I prefer filling my doe tags and passing up they typical smaller bucks in hopes for a larger one. JMO

I tend to feel the same way as Zag. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Helping my fm silly and friends understand hunting is far more helpful than someone else's. I pay my dues, and have for a number of years. You guys don't have to like my take, I am not bashing them- just expressing I feel like they do nothing for deer with regard to the politics/dec aspects of hunting. I belong to a bunch of other groups- they can claim wetlands saved, habitat improvement, etc ..... I laugh looking at the responses here- most are balled up and defensive against my opinion but are too dumb to know I reach out to the dec and at one point was starting a Qdma division here before some personal matters stifled that.

Typical old huntingNY- if you don't agree with us, we will wagon train around you and fling arrows until you quit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes ask them about their funding towards a CWD vaccine?  They scream to the moon and back about this stuff but seem to keep the checkbook pretty tight.

[dbHunterNY]

Helping my fm silly and friends understand hunting is far more helpful than someone else's. I pay my dues, and have for a number of years. You guys don't have to like my take, I am not bashing them- just expressing I feel like they do nothing for deer with regard to the politics/dec aspects of hunting. I belong to a bunch of other groups- they can claim wetlands saved, habitat improvement, etc ..... I laugh looking at the responses here- most are balled up and defensive against my opinion but are too dumb to know I reach out to the dec and at one point was starting a Qdma division here before some personal matters stifled that.

Typical old huntingNY- if you don't agree with us, we will wagon train around you and fling arrows until you quit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I won't talk about the wagon train.  what you feel can't be right or wrong.  how you feel about things is just exactly what it is.  i'll just give you this information....

 

Back in May there was a QDMA meeting for all of NYS; membership was said to have grown the most in NYS compared to the whole nation and there was talks of trying to get a partially state funded advisor to help with QDM co-ops that seem to be becoming more and more prevalent here. 

 

DEC has scheduled a meeting with multiple parties (some probably  "stake holders") to discuss the future buck management plans.  Not members but those holding positions and employed by the QDMA have made it a point to get the invite and be present at the meeting.  DEC has cancelled and push it out more than once I believe.  I have it written down who will be there and when was the next tentative date for the meeting.  just don't have it in front of me.

 

Many true QDM co-ops have ties to the QDMA and which very much so voice opinion, give DEC harvest info, and work with them in general to manage deer in their area.  We even had the head region 4 biologist at our pre-season co-op meeting.  Surprised he even showed up.  he even stayed for the whole thing and talked for a while which left a good impression in my mind.

 

The QDMA went to DEC first, multiple times to try to get poaching fines and penalties increased.  They were basically shrugged off and words fell on deaf ears.  So they took things the political and legislative route.  we've now got multiple sponsors and co-sponsors for the bill (A7171-2015).  if everyone continues to push this by telling their state reps they support it, then there's no reason it won't get put on the floor and passed.  brochures have been passed out and petitions are being filled.

 

DEC and political circles very much hear from and see a presence by the QDMA here in NY.  we aren't said to be a whitetail destination state yet all this effort and more is put into this state.  that should bring about some happy thoughts in an individual with feelings similar to yours.  no non-federal or non-state group can dictate what DEC does.  examples like above is the only way.  it's something that will never change and we have to live with them being a NYS entity with our Governor as a babysitter.  Hope this gave you and others reading this more information to lighten the worry that QDMA does "nothing" for deer with regard to politics and the DEC.  I also hope this backs the point that truly informed quality deer management efforts, not solely based on TV shows and trophy antlers, are growing in NY and most definitely are here to stay.

[dbHunterNY]

Yes ask them about their funding towards a CWD vaccine?  They scream to the moon and back about this stuff but seem to keep the checkbook pretty tight.

 

you yourself has said multiple times CWD isn't a concern.  So in your mind why would you even care if they didn't donate funding towards a CWD vaccine?  Maybe you should stop sniffing and keep your nose out of others business.  more importantly stick to the topic of QDM.  if you want to talk about CWD I think you should do it in the thread that was started for it.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

you yourself has said multiple times CWD isn't a concern.  So in your mind why would you even care if they didn't donate funding towards a CWD vaccine?  Maybe you should stop sniffing and keep your nose out of others business.  more importantly stick to the topic of QDM.  if you want to talk about CWD I think you should do it in the thread that was started for it.

Well Jack..If you were bright enough to know that QDMA is about the only group pushing QDM that may help you a bit.  As far as CWD and QDMA they were they most vocal about how it was going to kill everything yet do nothing to help. Typical from a group of a few people getting fat off of others.

 

As far as your sniffing comment you may want to take a little bit of your own advice but maybe i will keep a closer eye on things and see what other posts i can sniff around on. Sounds like a swell time.

 

Just an FYI...QDM is a joke in Ny state because 99% of the people dont have enough land to even have a slight impact.  So good luck trying to push that stupid idea!