Which part of NY produces the biggest deer?

[phade]

It is interesting how many huge bucks are found around major cities and suburbs where hunting is either nonexistent or severely curtailed. And yet, there is nothing about ground minerals or food plots or habitat that is particularly ideal. They all have just one thing in common, and that is long life. These are probably some of the worse managed deer herds anywhere and yet they thrive on not being managed.

Bucks can only grow what the soil allows. Suburban/city environments provide great soil quality because of all the enhancements made by humans. Those deer are not eating in peoples yards just because that is all thats left. Its because it offers the best quality food.

All of the factors that go into bigger bucks doesnt change in a city environment. Age is one of the factors, but nowhere near the only.

Edited October 8, 2015 by phade

[jflats123]

You have to know where to hunt in westchester

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Edited October 8, 2015 by jflats123

[Doc]

Of course old age is not the only factor in antler development, but so much is made of deer management and yet there are pockets of huge deer in places where the only management tool is the motor vehicle. It appears that the biggest factor is simply to allow deer to reach old age. And urban and suburban environments seem to be the most effective way of seeing bucks reach their full potential. I suspect that that is the most effective factor in "managing" for big racks.

[tuckersdaddy]

I vote for the middle and southern region 7. quite a few 130 plus bucks, lots of deer, and lots of state land. western ny, westchester, and li have great deer but if you don't have the land to hunt on your only way of getting a shot is with a camera!

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[Taylormike]

Look, there is no exact science or maybe there is... 

 

But I have to agree with Doc...., the bottom line is.....Longevity, reaching a mature age.  Some of you are familiar with Niagara County some of you are not.  Niagara county has some very rural areas but also very suburban areas, places where blacktop and concrete = more square footage than topsoil.  Two years ago in a very suburban area, I actually witnessed a 160-170 class deer walking in a Walmart parking lot.   The only decent food around was in the dumpsters, from the waste of the employees and patrons of Walmart.  Nothing was ideal about this location and btw.  I have witnessed some other brutes there too.

 

Don't misunderstand me, no question that good soil, food, hunting conditions play a role but not important as living to full maturity.  The reason PA is seeing huge bucks is because the deer are now left to age or mature if you will.  The soil is the same soil.  Deer antlers will get big, the deer need to survive 4-7 years.  This is my opinion.

[skully]

Nice buck and there are still some great bucks there but I could guarantee you this, where ever you got that buck It was 10x better 20 years ago.............

You have to know where to hunt in westchester


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[phade]

Age allows bucks to express potential. Soil quality is scientifically proven to be where the rubber meets the road.

 

Age is just the lowest hole in the bucket and people assume that's really the driver, but that's just misinformation. So much focus is on age and maturity that people lose the understanding of why it is important. It doesn't result in bigger antlers unless you unfairly try to compare non-matching age classes. It results in the ability to express the potential.

 

Soil quality is proven to be the catalyst for antler size. This is backed up by a plethora of scientifically accepted, peer reviewed studies. Antler beam diameter of yearling bucks consistently map out darn near precisely with the geographical soil quality maps. Exceptions to this in studies have been in urban areas where the soil quality is enhanced by humans - don't kid yourself, that Boone and Crockett buck isn't eating out of a dumpster, it's eating out of the well manicured properties of suburbanites that mow their yard every third day, plant nice yards and open space fields loaded with deer-preferred food sources, all of which are heavily fortified with nutrients for deer to uptake because every homeowner spends untold amounts of money on fertilizer, etc.

 

You also know who might disagree with you on age? Milo Hansen and his 3.5 y/o buck. Might think he's up in an area with less soil quality right? Think Glacial deposits. Same reason why many of the areas of NY are good for farming - good soil thanks to our last ice age. Not coincidentally, they line up with many of the better deer hunting areas in terms of top potential.

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2015 by phade

[Marion]

Age allows bucks to express potential. Soil quality is scientifically proven to be where the rubber meets the road.

Age is just the lowest hole in the bucket and people assume that's really the driver, but that's just misinformation. So much focus is on age and maturity that people lose the understanding of why it is important. It doesn't result in bigger antlers unless you unfairly try to compare non-matching age classes. It results in the ability to express the potential.

Soil quality is proven to be the catalyst for antler size. This is backed up by a plethora of scientifically accepted, peer reviewed studies. Antler beam diameter of yearling bucks consistently map out darn near precisely with the geographical soil quality maps. Exceptions to this in studies have been in urban areas where the soil quality is enhanced by humans - don't kid yourself, that Boone and Crockett buck isn't eating out of a dumpster, it's eating out of the well manicured properties of suburbanites that mow their yard every third day, plant nice yards and open space fields loaded with deer-preferred food sources, all of which are heavily fortified with nutrients for deer to uptake because every homeowner spends untold amounts of money on fertilizer, etc.

You also know who might disagree with you on age? Milo Hansen and his 3.5 y/o buck. Might think he's up in an area with less soil quality right? Think Glacial deposits. Same reason why many of the areas of NY are good for farming - good soil thanks to our last ice age. Not coincidentally, they line up with many of the better deer hunting areas in terms of top potential.

I am still amazed how that deer could hold those antlers, they are mastodon size antlers

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[BuckThornBooners]

FYI  “ tooth wear showed that amazing buck to most likely have been only 4 1/2 year old ”.  It’s really amazing that you could argue that AGE is not the number one factor in NY... The fact is you would have never heard of the milo Hansen buck if it was shot as an 140” 1.5 years old.. right ??  and using a world record buck to argue and telling people they are misinformed by opposing your opinion really shows your ignorance /arrogance.    
 

 

So let’s break this down to a simple test - you chose the best county to harvest the biggest buck  co: A or co: B

 

County A: description

 

 County A  is on some of the richest  “Glacial deposits” in the nation (land of the lost).  abundant in the most vigorous, lush ,nutrient rich vegetation anywhere  ..    this area also has the highest hunter density in the country with over 40 hunters PSM. with no harvest management almost all bucks harvested fall into the .5 - 1.5 year range with very impressive scores ranging from 80-130”. but by being harvested so young the deer never reach their full genetic potential but still very impressive racks.

 

 

County B:  description

 

county B is located in moderately rich soil  (all of WNY) with plenty of available forages ,ag fields , Nut trees , fruit trees .. this area has a low hunter density with QDM objectives to protect young bucks,  young bucks in the area 1.5 2.5 typically average  40”-110” range.  by letting bucks reach maturity hunters harvest deer that reach their full genetic potential hunters constantly take deer in the upper age class 3.5-6.5 with impressive racks in the 130”-170” range.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

What I’m am trying to say is DEAD dear don’t grow !!  But I’m sure you can still argue that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[G-Man]

Hmm seems the biggest bucks are coming from non ar areas... just saying are they needed? Wny ,and long island no point restrictions,but biggest deer makes you think doesn't it.....

[BuckThornBooners]

sure LI, Buffalo,Monroe co,  all have huge deer - urban deer have a safe place to hide to get old the , tall fescue , and Kentucky blue grass has little to do with it . the AR wont work over night  but it has worked in PA over time .. the one positive of ARs is that it makes people think and judge a deer before they sling lead. rather than just mowing down anything that pops out.  could make for safer hunting ... and possibly some older deer  

[LET EM GROW]

Soil quality, to me is a must if you want the difference between B&C and P&Y as far as ive witnessed in my years.

 

I hunt from Steuben to Wayne counties... and the soil quality changes big time from north to south. North being much more rich than the "stuff" at my place in Steuben Co...  Granted we have "nurtured the soil, lime and fert..

 

We manage to the best of our ability in Steuben with sanctuaries, food plots, Water sources  you name it, the deer basically have it all. Attempt to only harvest bucks 3.5 yrs and older, our avg. 3.5 yr olds are around the 100-120" range.. Long story short, Our best bucks produced through the last roughly 10 years of practice, have never really exceeded 160" ... minus the one exceptional freak that does better.. 

 

In Macedon, NY we own 150 acres, No management practices here because no one around us wants to pass younger bucks and or shoot a doe. hence why i don't hunt much here.. The land is Ag fields, hay fields, "blocks" of woods/funnels and creeks, with the village not far away, prime land.... but way too much hunting pressure...The soil quality is much better than that of My Steuben Co. soil ...

To sum it up,  when you do actually get to harvest or even see a buck here that makes the 3.5 age criteria, with given "decent" genetics.. The antler score is greater. in my assumption the avg 3.5 here would be 120-140" easily. my living room wall shows a couple of them.... An old friend killed an 18pt buck a few years back that scored 183"... Dec showed up and aged it at 3.5 yrs. This happened 3 years in a row from the same "block" all 160-180", all 3.5 yrs aged by dec... and you could tell just by looking at them, they were not that old of deer... A buck is taken here every year at 3.5-4.5+ years, that will sport head gear a deer at my camp would have to live 6.5 years, yet barely grow the same bone.. i have the pics to prove.

 

I don't prefer score, i rather chase the age class.. the challenge is fun, also i have ate my buck tag 4 years in a row now.. doesnt bother me a bit.. only filled freezer with doe and the fiances harvests..

 

I firmly believe that soil has every thing to do with producing giants.. like mid western states do.. along with genes and age..

[G-Man]

But ar has been in effect for.several years in areas of ny, and by now biggest.buck area should.be there

[dbHunterNY]

places with very limited access or reduced to bow only.  more deer live longer and get bigger.

[BuckThornBooners]

Look obviously nutrition Is going to have an impact on overall growth and defiantly takes both to make a B&C. what I’m trying to say is if you don’t have Wayne Co soil  down in in Ulstler Co  and you want a nice buck then it might be a good idea to protect the young ones from getting shot so they have a chance to make it to the maximum growth for that area even if that means a 125” 5.5 year old

 

And if you have Wayne co soil that grows 160” that’s great too..    I understand that great soil  and habitat makes great deer but they still need age even if it’s only 3 years. But to say age has little to do with it  I think is wrong, deer don’t drop out of the womb land on great soil  and sporting 160” of antler the same year. 

 

sorry I got of track a bit,   what came first the chicken or the egg -? :\  yes if you want B&C  find the best soil with the oldest deer .  my vote would be Wayne ,Monroe and Genesee.,   

Good luck 

[phade]

Look obviously nutrition Is going to have an impact on overall growth and defiantly takes both to make a B&C. what I’m trying to say is if you don’t have Wayne Co soil  down in in Ulstler Co  and you want a nice buck then it might be a good idea to protect the young ones from getting shot so they have a chance to make it to the maximum growth for that area even if that means a 125” 5.5 year old

 

And if you have Wayne co soil that grows 160” that’s great too..    I understand that great soil  and habitat makes great deer but they still need age even if it’s only 3 years. But to say age has little to do with it  I think is wrong, deer don’t drop out of the womb land on great soil  and sporting 160” of antler the same year. 

 

sorry I got of track a bit,   what came first the chicken or the egg -? :\  yes if you want B&C  find the best soil with the oldest deer .  my vote would be Wayne ,Monroe and Genesee.,   

Good luck 

 

The average age of bucks harvested in the AR zones in NY are older than the average age of bucks harvested in wNY and LI.

 

Guess where the biggest based on overall volume/avg antler size deer still come from? wNY and LI where AR is not involved to advance the age class.

 

So again, age allows one to express potential. Soil quality is what allows the bone on the head to be what it is. The question is the "biggest" deer.

 

And on the Hanson buck, most people agree on 3.5 despite claims of 4.5. Aging wear on deer 3.5+ is a loose art in my book as compared to the actual slice of tooth under the microscope. That and the premise that most typicals in the record books are younger because of the propensity for bucks to start growing abnormal points or deductions once they hit their fourth year.

[phade]

Look obviously nutrition Is going to have an impact on overall growth and defiantly takes both to make a B&C. what I’m trying to say is if you don’t have Wayne Co soil  down in in Ulstler Co  and you want a nice buck then it might be a good idea to protect the young ones from getting shot so they have a chance to make it to the maximum growth for that area even if that means a 125” 5.5 year old

 

And if you have Wayne co soil that grows 160” that’s great too..    I understand that great soil  and habitat makes great deer but they still need age even if it’s only 3 years. But to say age has little to do with it  I think is wrong, deer don’t drop out of the womb land on great soil  and sporting 160” of antler the same year. 

 

sorry I got of track a bit,   what came first the chicken or the egg -? :\  yes if you want B&C  find the best soil with the oldest deer .  my vote would be Wayne ,Monroe and Genesee.,   

Good luck 

 

 

Also, please post up where anyone, ANYONE said age has little to do with it? The problem is people put too much weight into age when trying to align it with antler growth and they do so because they do not understand the role of other growth factors like soil quality and density, nor body size related to latitude.

[skully]

antler restrictions work--------  ask anybody who has them now the deer are bigger.  It is common sense, if you let a deer live another year or two then there is a great chance the horns will be bigger.

DuH

[skully]

Can You imagine if those areas did have antler restrictions...........

[BuckThornBooners]

Phade you win, I fold..

[phade]

Can You imagine if those areas did have antler restrictions...........

 

No. I do not see a need. All unmanaged ground, too.

Edited October 9, 2015 by phade

[genesee_mohican]

Here's a good link from the NY Big buck club that shows the county they were taken in:

 

http://www.nysbigbuckclub.com/2014-new-york-record-whitetails.html

 

 

[Marion]

Those are some beasts!

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[phade]

Found some more on the work comp...

[moog5050]

Phade

 

Thanks for pointing out many of the bucks we should have killed and didn't.  Somehow I just got depressed.