Well put together ammunition infomercial by Curmudgeon

[mike rossi]

Very well put together infomercial by Curmudgeon and company through the Delaware Otsego Chapter of the Audubon Society. It is always enjoyable to see and hear the names behind the voices on internet forums and social media, although this is not the first time we seen the face of Curmudgeon (Tom Salo). 

 

I posted this in the general talk section, because, this forum does not have a conservation section, and although this would indeed fit under the deer hunting section,  I am a realist.... 

 

A legislative ban on Pb ammo will be difficult and I do not lobby or advocate for such a ban. However, in my personal dealings with new hunters, I indeed promote that they voluntarily chose an alternative to Pb ammunition. 

 

 

https://youtu.be/qffN1D3B0j8

[Lawdwaz]

I'll view it later on..........thanks.

[Marion]

Stop bumping

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[wooly]

Good vid!

[stoneam2006]

Good video worth the watch

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Paula]

 Great video

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Paula

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks everyone. I have an update on the local eagle in the video - the one being held. It was being GPS tracked by NYSDEC most of the winter. It spent a lot of time at a farm in Delaware County adjacent to a meat processor who cuts up a lot of deer. The bird stopped moving in March, was captured by a DEC employee and put into treatment for lead poisoning (65 micrograms/deciliter blood lead level). Another - dead - bald eagle was recovered from the same property at that time. The GPS tracking indicated the bird had been feeding on an adjacent, posted property that the DEC guy could not enter. It is suspected that the bird was feeding on butchering scraps, possibly put out by coyote hunters.  

 

The bird was fattened up, flown for weeks in a flight cage, and was able to catch fish from a kiddie pool. On May 26, the GPS tracking device was put back on the bird. and it was released. However, the brain damage was permanent, and too severe. It never went far and on June 15 totally stopped moving. When someone went looking, it was dead. It died of starvation. The death of the bird is not due to any error in judgement about releasing it. In fact, the tracking device was put back on the bird for the very purpose of judging how well it did. I believe they thought if it was having difficulty, they could get it again before it died. It is extremely difficult to judge how well a bird is functioning while in captivity, and whether it will be able to do what is necessary to survive in the wild.

 

 

 

 

[ATbuckhunter]

Great video! I still will never support a lead ban, but I do advocate for everyone to switch to non-lead for the enviornment and their own families. 

[grampy]

Very informative video.  I used the Remington copper sabots for many years when hunting with a slug gun. The were very accurate out of my Ithica. Last year was the first with a rifle for me. I did try a solid copper bullet but did not get as good a group as the Nosler ammo that shot great. Perhaps I'll try the copper ammo again. But will not try to sway another hunter in his choice or vote for another regulation placed on hunters. Also I've been eating lead shot venison all my life. Perhaps that explains a few things!

[ATbuckhunter]

Very informative video.  I used the Remington copper sabots for many years when hunting with a slug gun. The were very accurate out of my Ithica. Last year was the first with a rifle for me. I did try a solid copper bullet but did not get as good a group as the Nosler ammo that shot great. Perhaps I'll try the copper ammo again. But will not try to sway another hunter in his choice or vote for another regulation placed on hunters. Also I've been eating lead shot venison all my life. Perhaps that explains a few things!

I believe nosler makes a copper bullet, but i would suggest you try Barnes bullets. 

[Doewhacker]

Very interesting and good to see what happens to the birds, it helps drive home your cause. Well done

[dbHunterNY]

once I get setup for reloading i'll look into non-lead ammo.  using what I got for now though.

[Lawdwaz]

Nice job on the video.

 

I've been a user of Barnes X, TSX and TTSX bullets in my CF hunting rifles for many years. Not exclusively but quite often.  I didn't choose to use solid copper bullets to benefit the OTHER critters that may be feeding on gut piles sprinkled with lead fragments, it's just a great extra benefit to using the monolithic bullets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EspressoBuzz]

Good work Curmudgeon keep fighting the good fight!

[airedale]

The lead based ammo debate was just hashed out here a few weeks ago and there is nothing in the video that was not discussed in depth previously or changes my mind about the continued use of conventional lead based ammunition.

 

 

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/32062-lead-ammo-brief-go-debate/

 

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/32001-good-column-on-non-lead-ammo/

 

Maybe we ought to ban motor vehicles, it is said that conservatively "ONE MILLION" animals get killed just on our USA roads by vehicles every single day!!

 

Al

Edited June 22, 2016 by airedale

[Curmudgeon]

No one is discussing a ban. It is just education.

[stoneam2006]

No one is discussing a ban. It is just education.

Is there any estimates on how many predatory birds it affects yearly?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Curmudgeon]

Is there any estimates on how many predatory birds it affects yearly?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

One problem with getting data: most birds that are killed by lead, or become sick enough to die from other causes are not found. We were able to identify one source of lead because we were tracking an eagle. DEC was able to do the same thing with the bird that died last week - but as far as I know, did not enter the property where the bird had been feeding.

 

Peter Nye - retired DEC and one of the people most responsible for the recovery of bald eagles - told me while we were filming that a researcher in the mid-west had documented over 1000 bald eagles affected (sick or dead) over 2 decades.

 

Todd Katzner - a USGS raptor biologist says "Each year hundreds or thousands of bald eagles nationwide become ill from lead poisoning."

 

There is no consensus on what lead level is dangerous. There seems no debate that blood lead above 10 μg/dL is clearly problematic. The bald eagle in video that died had a level of 65 when is was captured by hand.

 

Since the birds are relatively few in number, and dead birds are hard to find, determining the magnitude of the problem requires looking at the blood lead levels of living, wild birds. I do not know of any research of this type on bald eagles in the east. Brian Bedrosian tested 63 eagles of both species in the Yellowstone ecosystem. "The median blood lead levels for eagles during the hunting season was significantly higher than the non-hunting season (56.0 vs. 27.7 μg/dL, respectively;)."  See link below -

 

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/health/Bedrosian_and_Craighead_2009.pdf

 

Researchers east and west have been trapping and tracking golden eagles, and testing their blood. I have data on 239 birds, of which 49 are eastern birds. 58% of western birds and 61% of eastern birds were above the 10 μg/dL number.

 

Given almost identical results on goldens east and west, I would expect similar findings with bald eagles - if someone tested them here, their lead levels would be similar to Yellowstone. 

 

 

 

[stoneam2006]

One problem with getting data: most birds that are killed by lead, or become sick enough to die from other causes are not found. We were able to identify one source of lead because we were tracking an eagle. DEC was able to do the same thing with the bird that died last week - but as far as I know, did not enter the property where the bird had been feeding.

Peter Nye - retired DEC and one of the people most responsible for the recovery of bald eagles - told me while we were filming that a researcher in the mid-west had documented over 1000 bald eagles affected (sick or dead) over 2 decades.

Todd Katzner - a USGS raptor biologist says "Each year hundreds or thousands of bald eagles nationwide become ill from lead poisoning."

There is no consensus on what lead level is dangerous. There seems no debate that blood lead above 10 μg/dL is clearly problematic. The bald eagle in video that died had a level of 65 when is was captured by hand.

Since the birds are relatively few in number, and dead birds are hard to find, determining the magnitude of the problem requires looking at the blood lead levels of living, wild birds. I do not know of any research of this type on bald eagles in the east. Brian Bedrosian tested 63 eagles of both species in the Yellowstone ecosystem. "The median blood lead levels for eagles during the hunting season was significantly higher than the non-hunting season (56.0 vs. 27.7 μg/dL, respectively;)." See link below -

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/health/Bedrosian_and_Craighead_2009.pdf

Researchers east and west have been trapping and tracking golden eagles, and testing their blood. I have data on 239 birds, of which 49 are eastern birds. 58% of western birds and 61% of eastern birds were above the 10 μg/dL number.

Given almost identical results on goldens east and west, I would expect similar findings with bald eagles - if someone tested them here, their lead levels would be similar to Yellowstone.

And is it just lead ammo we believe is causing this...or more so water contamination? I just ask to learn

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[stubby68]

        Most birds killed by lead are not found. How is it known they were killed by lead if they were not found? Just asking because that makes it sound like we should assume that all dead Eagles got that way from lead. I mean if you cant find them you do not know they are even dead. How do we know for sure the ones that were found and proven to be deaths from lead got the lead from bullets?

           

  

            I am not saying lead is not poisonous,however it is natural and can be found in many things other then bullets.Lead has been being used for hunting for over 100 years. If lead from hunting is such a huge problem then for as long as it has been being used I would think there wouldnt be any birds left and we would all be brain dead.

[Curmudgeon]

Eagles get almost all of their water from their food. It is a rare thing for them to drink. If there was naturally occurring lead in water, it might contaminate fish - which are eaten by bald but not golden eagles - however, the increase in blood-lead during and after hunting season coincides with bald eagles relying more on scavenging in the cold months and less on fish. Also - unlike mercury which binds with organic compounds - lead does not bioaccumulate. Levels in fish would not be expected to be higher than that of the water. The seasonal lead levels and food sources would have to be reversed for fish to be a major source. The similarities between the two eagle species - with similar levels - and timing both argue against an aquatic source.

 

Then there is the isotopes. There are multiple isotopes of lead. The one used in ammo is the one found in eagles and other scavengers. When examined, copper matching the jackets of bullets also shows up in their blood.

[Curmudgeon]

        Most birds killed by lead are not found. How is it known they were killed by lead if they were not found? Just asking because that makes it sound like we should assume that all dead Eagles got that way from lead. I mean if you cant find them you do not know they are even dead. How do we know for sure the ones that were found and proven to be deaths from lead got the lead from bullets?

           

  

            I am not saying lead is not poisonous,however it is natural and can be found in many things other then bullets.Lead has been being used for hunting for over 100 years. If lead from hunting is such a huge problem then for as long as it has been being used I would think there wouldnt be any birds left and we would all be brain dead.

 

Most birds that die are not found, no matter what the cause.

 

There are about 30 peer reviewed papers detailing lead isotopes matching ammunition, the seasonality of poisonings, copper matching bullet jackets in the blood. I have personally tracked an eagle to a pile of dead pigs, killed with lead and left by APHIS. Another eagle was found in its death throws nearby - killed by lead.

 

I have to get to work so I am not going to post 1000 words on this. If you really want to learn, if you aren't just a denier, go to the link in my signature line. You can read and make up your own mind.

 

I just addressed most of your last sentence in the other thread. And, maybe some of us are not "brain dead" but are possibly brain damaged. I don't mean this as an insult to those who disagree because I include myself in that group.

[stoneam2006]

Eagles get almost all of their water from their food. It is a rare thing for them to drink. If there was naturally occurring lead in water, it might contaminate fish - which are eaten by bald but not golden eagles - however, the increase in blood-lead during and after hunting season coincides with bald eagles relying more on scavenging in the cold months and less on fish. Also - unlike mercury which binds with organic compounds - lead does not bioaccumulate. Levels in fish would not be expected to be higher than that of the water. The seasonal lead levels and food sources would have to be reversed for fish to be a major source. The similarities between the two eagle species - with similar levels - and timing both argue against an aquatic source.

Then there is the isotopes. There are multiple isotopes of lead. The one used in ammo is the one found in eagles and other scavengers. When examined, copper matching the jackets of bullets also shows up in their blood.

Does all lead free ammo say it on box?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Curmudgeon]

Does all lead free ammo say it on box?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

No, it doesn't, and that should change. If you go to a big store and don't get a well informed clerk, you might not be able to figure it out at all. Bizarrely, the non-lead stuff has the lead warnings on it just as if it were lead. It must be some federal rule.

 

All Barnes brand bullets and ammo is copper. They invented the stuff, but not to be lead free. They created a better bullet. The non-lead aspect is just an unintended fringe benefit.

 

This DEC page lists the brand names of non-lead ammo for some major manufacturers - http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/48420.html.

 

I find the Barnes and Federal Trophy Copper the most available. Both have performed excellently. The best selection near me is at Bass Pro in Utica.

[ATbuckhunter]

Does all lead free ammo say it on box?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I don't believe they do for every brand, but I think its something that should be written on the front of the box. My Vor-Tx ammo boxes dont mention that they are lead free, but do mention the bullet is an all copper design. I also think they should put it on turkey shells that a lead free.