SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[dbHunterNY]

33 minutes ago, growalot said:

Lets try this DBH... Do you have any understanding of  the phrase " taking stabs in the dark"?

I'm pretty sure others here do. Thus my deliberate use of the term. BTW, I did read what he wrote, but let me refresh you:

Take a mental note as to  where your comments to others stemmed from in that paragraph. The bold and underline will tell you where mine did. Now try to draw a line from there to the " stab in the dark " comment I made. If you still can not understand I give up.

 

copied response to john.....

i get it and not arguing that it doesn't happen.  aside from wolcs mindset it's all speculation and jumping to bad conclusions based on assumption.  antler size had nothing to do with the issue aside from apparently they were masked by the ears to appear to be a doe.  for all we now he stewed about it in silence, praying the Jesus he won't go off on the kid.

[hunterdan44]

i assume you're taking the buck that you will, but still observing otherwise legal bucks while out hunting.  when DEC looks at the entire area with ARs they see, when looking at numbers on paper, a small decrease in opportunity as to them it relates to buck harvest.  from your point of view, do you feel you've perceived any significant decrease in opportunity to harvest a legal buck given one has to now meet the antler restrictions to be legal?

Yes I agree with that as far as target ID must be carefully done so as not to shoot a big four with no brow tines or other bucks that would not be legal. But overall it not that bad.


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[Doc]

17 hours ago, wolc123 said:

The largest factor in me changing my stance on AR's was a neighbor kid shooting a little buck last season, that I had passed a week or so earlier.  He told me later, that he thought it was a doe (the three point rack was hidden behind the ears), and he seemed genuinely upset that he had killed the little buck.   I bet he wished that those AR's were in place at the time.       

The antler restrictions would not have made a bit of difference. The kid shot the deer thinking it was a doe. He didn't even know the deer had antlers at all. So how would AR have changed the result. Even with AR, he thought it was a doe and still would have shot it. The only difference is that he would have wound up with a legal problem on his hands if AR was in force. Then who knows how he would have reacted. Perhaps it would have been left to rot. I think he was damned lucky that his area didn't have ARs in place.

[growalot]

Chas... glad I did too...Now I'm also glad you mentioned Culverts post...lets review shall we?:

Quote

Out here by is a 3 point rule would save 50% of them. We have a lot of 6 7 and 8 point yearlings. Where I grew up in central NY that didn't happen much.

Now I believe ..he will have to confirm, if he's in Rush then that is 8H and NOT under the AR proposal but in a decrease #'s region. I am in a Decrease #'s with a good amount of multi point 1 1/2 yo. and a 4 to one side proposed area...2miles up the road is 8M an area where they are trying to decrease the herd #'s but with fewer doe tags than 8N. due to an over harvest issue some years ago. They are in a no AR area. 8X surrounded by areas they are trying to increase the herd ...trying to just maintain the herd numbers with fewer doe tags and they are in a AR zone. BTW high winter kills in this area. Alfred hills with little farming and nearly every area hit by loggers that took a main food source...wht oaks. The link shows the map I speak of...Then look at the original DEC roll out map

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/37304.html

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/37304.html

need to scroll to the bottom to see map. Now I know what I see for our areas in those two maps and the proposed legislation...I can't tell you what to see but look at it closely and think.

 

 

[growalot]

Quote

The antler restrictions would not have made a bit of difference. The kid shot the deer thinking it was a doe. He didn't even know the deer had antlers at all. So how would AR have changed the result. Even with AR, he thought it was a doe and still would have shot it.

[moog5050]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

What Im wondering though, is he said he thought it was a doe, not that he thought it was a bigger buck, so ARs wouldnt have helped, as he wasnt looking at the rack.

I agreed with you that ARs probably would have no impact, but I think the theory is that a hunter, even thinking its a doe, will look harder to ensure it is not a small buck that violates the AR rule.  By looking harder, he would have then seen the rack and realized it wasn't a doe.  Lots of assumptions. 

[Larry]

33 PAGES 17 TO GO TO HIT 50

I'M GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO HELP GET US THERE!

A ROUND AND ROUND WE GO WHEN WE STOP NOBODY KNOWS!

[dbHunterNY]

The antler restrictions would not have made a bit of difference. The kid shot the deer thinking it was a doe. He didn't even know the deer had antlers at all. So how would AR have changed the result. Even with AR, he thought it was a doe and still would have shot it. The only difference is that he would have wound up with a legal problem on his hands if AR was in force. Then who knows how he would have reacted. Perhaps it would have been left to rot. I think he was damned lucky that his area didn't have ARs in place.

The situation would also exist that he doesn't have a buck tag and only a doe tag left. It's a case that doesn't have anything to do with antler restrictions. It's about him needing to learn not to mistaking shoot a deer of the wrong sex that he may or may not have a tag for. "Good thing there's no antler restrictions" is no excuse.

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[turkeyfeathers]

18 minutes ago, Larry said:

33 PAGES 17 TO GO TO HIT 50

I'M GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO HELP GET US THERE!

A ROUND AND ROUND WE GO WHEN WE STOP NOBODY KNOWS!

If you made your font any bigger it'll be there  in just a few more posts by you alone

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

Chas... glad I did too...Now I'm also glad you mentioned Culverts post...lets review shall we?:

Now I believe ..he will have to confirm, if he's in Rush then that is 8H and NOT under the AR proposal but in a decrease #'s region. I am in a Decrease #'s with a good amount of multi point 1 1/2 yo. and a 4 to one side proposed area...2miles up the road is 8M an area where they are trying to decrease the herd #'s but with fewer doe tags than 8N. due to an over harvest issue some years ago. They are in a no AR area. 8X surrounded by areas they are trying to increase the herd ...trying to just maintain the herd numbers with fewer doe tags and they are in a AR zone. BTW high winter kills in this area. Alfred hills with little farming and nearly every area hit by loggers that took a main food source...wht oaks. The link shows the map I speak of...Then look at the original DEC roll out map

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/37304.html

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/37304.html

need to scroll to the bottom to see map. Now I know what I see for our areas in those two maps and the proposed legislation...I can't tell you what to see but look at it closely and think.

 

 

I hunt in 8X, and 8Y every year for the majority of all deer seasons (around 20 days on stand). I can attest to the low numbers but in this area there are many many many more brown it's down hunters. I work in a school district with 300 students per a graduating class the students come in all the time bragging about their parents filling all their tags on any thing that walks fawns to mature bucks. THAT is the reason for low herd numbers not to mention the strong Amish presence. Many more Amish per a square mile than the Naples, High Torr, Bristol , Middlesex area. Winter kill offs have not been that bad down here in 8X or 8Y as you might not think there are still a large number of farming communities and there was little to no sign of dead deer from natural causes. I saw more dead deer at my parents area in 8F than I did down here in 8X and 8Y in the past 3 years. I have reviewed the maps before and have saw the state lands that have been logged but there is still lots of forage in the area with little competition because of the lower # of deer per sq. mile. Myself and 4 others hunt a 300 acre tract that has 6 deer on it, yes 6 in 8X. On that 300 acres it should be able to sustain a small herd of 10+ with the available resources, the owners ended up shooting 5 of the 6 deer (the last one left was a 60 lbs. button buck that I'm not sure how he made it through the gauntlet).

[Larry]

that's as big as it will let me go

[growalot]

Our camps been there since we first got married back in 1979 and the Family owned the land well before that. At one point the family owned the entire valley ...I had to call the DEC some years ago about a particular bad winter kill in those hills ,documented b by myself and SIL ..it's just in the last few years the tag #'s have come up a bit. I can also attest to the number of coyote that have come into the area and it is always a good bear area ... Now from Almond to camp and Alfred to camp I'd like to know where a bunch of  farms have popped up...Yes from Almond to Hornell  on the Kanakadea park rd you have some beef farmers but those pasture lands are nothing like crop farming...I could be wrong ...went college there, daughter went to university there. Mr B did the university construction work for years and a good many of the school jobs as well. Not as if we drove any of the roads...What that area does grow well is buckthorn. What they have logged on state land...I do not know..... but I most certainly  know where when and what was logged on and around our camp over the past 15 years and white oak were hit hard. It has been in just the last few years we can look across the valley to see guys growing some food plots. All this said  you proved my point... the land owners(that get doe tags) will have to wait out the bucks for sure. While they are waiting in that low density area ..They will be taking out the breeding population and I can tell you the biggest problem that area has is button buck kills so while these guys are shooting button bucks as doe ...AR's are NOT making things better.

Edited March 29, 2017 by growalot

[wolc123]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

The antler restrictions would not have made a bit of difference. The kid shot the deer thinking it was a doe. He didn't even know the deer had antlers at all. So how would AR have changed the result. Even with AR, he thought it was a doe and still would have shot it. The only difference is that he would have wound up with a legal problem on his hands if AR was in force. Then who knows how he would have reacted. Perhaps it would have been left to rot. I think he was damned lucky that his area didn't have ARs in place.

AR's may have made him look a little closer before pulling the trigger.  He had a few doe tags and a buck tag at the time.  I noticed the tag on the antlers when we drove by, later on the morning of the kill, as he and his cousin were getting ready to load it onto their truck.  They saw us drive by slowly that morning, which is probably why he walked over to talk to me later.   He honestly did seem upset about killing the little buck.  I told him it was not a problem, not to worry about it, and how I had seen it a week earlier.  He has always been an honest kid and I am sure he would not have left it to rot.  

Speaking of that, does anyone know what the penalty would be for shooting a buck that does not meet the AR's?   What do you think about my suggestion of no fine, but loosing your right to buy a buck tag for that season on the following year?  That would be easy to enforce by computer, with no extra effort from DEC officers required.   It would also give some folks a taste of that "one-buck" rule that several have mentioned.   

Although I am a little sad at the loss of an opportunity at a good-eating, 2-1/2 year old buck on our farm this fall, at least that little buck did not die in vain.  Besides adding at least a page to the lively discussion on this thread, he provided that kid's family with some fine-eating, corn-fed venison.  That is something we really can thank Jesus for.         

        

[gjs4]

i think culture here in NY has a lot to do with it.  you can't shoot down DEC credibility and then say it's solely cultural, because that would be accepting DEC's based prognosis saying the deer herd isn't in need of anything.

All deer seasons throughout North America have cultural interests woven through out them (dogs, no sundays, etc). The NYSDEC is just a failure to license buying hunters, especially those hunting whitetails, as they are so out of touch with the herd.



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[reeltime]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

AR's may have made him look a little closer before pulling the trigger.  He had a few doe tags and a buck tag at the time.  I noticed the tag on the antlers when we drove by, later on the morning of the kill, as he and his cousin were getting ready to load it onto their truck.  They saw us drive by slowly that morning, which is probably why he walked over to talk to me later.   He honestly did seem upset about killing the little buck.  I told him it was not a problem, not to worry about it, and how I had seen it a week earlier.  He has always been an honest kid and I am sure he would not have left it to rot.  

Speaking of that, does anyone know what the penalty would be for shooting a buck that does not meet the AR's?   What do you think about my suggestion of no fine, but loosing your right to buy a buck tag for that season on the following year?  That would be easy to enforce by computer, with no extra effort from DEC officers required.   It would also give some folks a taste of that "one-buck" rule that several have mentioned.   

Although I am a little sad at the loss of an opportunity at a good-eating, 2-1/2 year old buck on our farm this fall, at least that little buck did not die in vain.  Besides adding at least a page to the lively discussion on this thread, he provided that kid's family with some fine-eating, corn-fed venison.  That is something we really can thank Jesus for.         

        

i would say the kid needs to learn to properly identify his target, what if he didn't have a antler tag? would he of called it in or just gotten someone else to tag it.  KNOW what your shooting at before you pull the trigger or release the string because once its done there is no do over.

It doesn't matter if its a monetary fine or loss of a buck tag,  If there is a penalty the honest people will turn it in, others will either take their chances getting it out of the woods or leave it to rot in the woods. 

I have been hunting the PA antler restriction since its inception,  my zone was the 4 pts. to a side which is now 3 up (3 up on the main beam not counting brow tines)  1.5 yo bucks are still getting killed, yes we have more 2.5+ bucks and we have some real dandy's BUT they also the first 2 years of AR about decimated the herd with herd reduction.  What we have now is far more posted land and far more self management for protecting the doe population. 

we can not compare ny and pa as the hunter numbers and the overall mentality is far different between the states. 

 

whether or not the state goes to AR makes no difference to me, hasn't in pa nor would it here.  We already have an AR in ny in some respect, as there was in pa.  if you want herd health it requires herd balance to habitat carrying capacity, with the amount of posted land its an almost impossible goal because you can not shoot deer that you can not get to and the state can not force those land owners to open their land to hunting.

 

people should just hunt how they like and should be allowed to shoot what is legal, they paid for their tag not me.  like I said it doesn't matter to me if there are AR or not its not going to change what I shoot.

 

from personal experience I can say there is probably not a more volatile subject among hunters than AR, its been the cause of more heated debates, posted land, poaching, and  just plain dissension among hunters.

If you want to pass up bucks to give them a chance to make it another year there is no problem with doing so, will some of those get shot later? maybe,, but one things for sure  if you follow the attitude of well if I don't someone else will only 1 thing is true when YOU shoot it its chances of making it another year just ended.  if you let that deer walk he may just make it another year or more.

Survival skills of deer 2.5 + go up as they age, 1.5 and 2.5 bucks can be easy to kill, 3.5 they get tougher, the jump they make from 3.5 to 4.5 is unreal and when your hunting 4.5+ bucks you better be on your A game! 

 

[Larry]

 Chas0218 you mean to tell me there are only 6 deer on 300 acres? Or is that 6 deer you would be willing to shoot there is a difference. If you really only have 6 deer on that property and you killed 5 it’s time to find a new place to hunt. Because you have bigger issues on that land then just people killing deer all around you.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Larry

[wfmiller]

I just read this last page and see that someone shot a buck they thought was a doe, and someone else is saying AR's might have changed that by making him look harder. I can understand that mistake did it myself 2 years ago. Thought I was shooting a doe and it was a 7 pointer instead. Just the fourth day of bow season and hard to see in the woods with all the leaves. He was standing 30 yards away and in the open but it was darker in the woods and thick brush behind him I just couldn't see his rack. Would I have looked harder if there were AR's? No not at all, I was looking as hard as I could. I was shocked when I found him a little while later.

Here's the other thing about AR's. Every time I ask a buck to stop so I can count his points he runs away. But seriously I have never had time to worry about how many points were on their head, except one and he was a big spike and I shot him. If there had been AR's I would not have killed a deer last year. I killed a 5 pointer with the bow I could not see his antlers, I thought I did but wasn't sure.

My point is, it's not always possible to tell how many points are on their head and no you can't always shoot a doe for meat. If that was the case I would be without the last 2 years because I haven't seen a doe closer then 300 yards.

[growalot]

THANK FOR YOUR HONESTY...and I'm sorry for what's coming next. Also funny how no one considered just how smart the doe are....hang on tight now and good luck.

[gjs4]

I just read this last page and see that someone shot a buck they thought was a doe, and someone else is saying AR's might have changed that by making him look harder. I can understand that mistake did it myself 2 years ago. Thought I was shooting a doe and it was a 7 pointer instead. Just the fourth day of bow season and hard to see in the woods with all the leaves. He was standing 30 yards away and in the open but it was darker in the woods and thick brush behind him I just couldn't see his rack. Would I have looked harder if there were AR's? No not at all, I was looking as hard as I could. I was shocked when I found him a little while later.
Here's the other thing about AR's. Every time I ask a buck to stop so I can count his points he runs away. But seriously I have never had time to worry about how many points were on their head, except one and he was a big spike and I shot him. If there had been AR's I would not have killed a deer last year. I killed a 5 pointer with the bow I could not see his antlers, I thought I did but wasn't sure.
My point is, it's not always possible to tell how many points are on their head and no you can't always shoot a doe for meat. If that was the case I would be without the last 2 years because I haven't seen a doe closer then 300 yards.

So do you know what's beyond your target when you hastily shoot? How do you practice quick snap shots and verification of clear lanes when you shoot at the deer that won't stop? Oh wait..... you can't be burdened to do that or count points. Keep spraying lead and making points comrade.


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[Matthewsshooter]

7 hours ago, wfmiller said:

I just read this last page and see that someone shot a buck they thought was a doe, and someone else is saying AR's might have changed that by making him look harder. I can understand that mistake did it myself 2 years ago. Thought I was shooting a doe and it was a 7 pointer instead. Just the fourth day of bow season and hard to see in the woods with all the leaves. He was standing 30 yards away and in the open but it was darker in the woods and thick brush behind him I just couldn't see his rack. Would I have looked harder if there were AR's? No not at all, I was looking as hard as I could. I was shocked when I found him a little while later.

Here's the other thing about AR's. Every time I ask a buck to stop so I can count his points he runs away. But seriously I have never had time to worry about how many points were on their head, except one and he was a big spike and I shot him. If there had been AR's I would not have killed a deer last year. I killed a 5 pointer with the bow I could not see his antlers, I thought I did but wasn't sure.

My point is, it's not always possible to tell how many points are on their head and no you can't always shoot a doe for meat. If that was the case I would be without the last 2 years because I haven't seen a doe closer then 300 yards.

Possibly an honest post, but yikes!!

[wfmiller]

7 hours ago, gjs4 said:

 

So do you know what's beyond your target when you hastily shoot? How do you practice quick snap shots and verification of clear lanes when you shoot at the deer that won't stop? Oh wait..... you can't be burdened to do that or count points. Keep spraying lead and making points comrade.


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Obviously you can't read good I said what was beyond my target, and the 5 pointer was broadside and I couldn't see his rack because his ears were hiding it. So were was I doing something wrong?  

[wolc123]

Many years ago, prior to legal rifles in WNY, or even rifled slug barrels, a deer was a little out of range, so I got down from my stand and tried to get a little closer.  I was wearing a blaze orange jacket and hat.  When I stepped thru a hedge-row,  I felt the pressure wave from a foster slug, against the side of my face, before I heard the gun go off.  I immediately hit the dirt, which started hitting me as 4 more rounds landed close by. Another hunter had emptied his shotgun at the deer that stood between us.   Were it not for that "special" feeling, one that many "lucky" veterans have experienced in combat,  I would likely be totally against AR's.   If they have the potential to slow folks down, and make sure of their target , and what is beyond, then I am for them.  

When there are no AR's, and a hunter can legally kill an antlerless deer or a buck of any size, there is not much there to slow them down.  We have now heard of multiple cases, on just this one thread, how folks in that situation have fired when they were  not sure if the deer had antlers or not.  I am not saying that means the shot was not safe, so please don't take it that way.

 I have killed several bucks myself, including one with 10 points, that I did not know had antlers until I walked up to the carcass.  Every time, I had a buck and a doe tag and I was 100 % sure that it was a deer and that I could take a safe shot.  I was also at least 90% sure that I could make a clean kill with it.   There are many times when the heart/lung vital area is in the clear but the head is not.  AR's will take some of those opportunities away, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make in exchange for a little more safety.  

The improved safety side-benefit is the primary reason why I do not support an exemption for kids on the AR's.  Their vision should be best when they are young, making it easier for them to see and count antler points.  If anything, maybe seniors should get an exemption.            

Edited April 1, 2017 by wolc123

[DirtTime]

7 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Many years ago, prior to legal rifles in WNY, or even rifled slug barrels, a deer was a little out of range, so I got down from my stand and tried to get a little closer.  I was wearing a blaze orange jacket and hat.  When I stepped thru a hedge-row,  I felt the pressure wave from a foster slug, against the side of my face, before I heard the gun go off.  I immediately hit the dirt, which started hitting me as 4 more rounds landed close by. Another hunter had emptied his shotgun at the deer that stood between us.   Were it not for that "special" feeling, one that many "lucky" veterans have experienced in combat,  I would likely be totally against AR's.   If they have the potential to slow folks down, and make sure of their target , and what is beyond, then I am for them.  

When there are no AR's, and a hunter can legally kill an antlerless deer or a buck of any size, there is not much there to slow them down.  We have now heard of multiple cases, on just this one thread, how folks in that situation have fired when they were  not sure if the deer had antlers or not.  I am not saying that means the shot was not safe, so please don't take it that way.

 I have killed several bucks myself, including one with 10 points, that I did not know had antlers until I walked up to the carcass.  Every time, I had a buck and a doe tag and I was 100 % sure that it was a deer and that I could take a safe shot.  I was also at least 90% sure that I could make a clean kill with it.   There are many times when the heart/lung vital area is in the clear but the head is not.  AR's will take some of those opportunities away, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make in exchange for a little more safety.  

The improved safety side-benefit is the primary reason why I do not support an exemption for kids on the AR's.  Their vision should be best when they are young, making it easier for them to see and count antler points.  If anything, maybe seniors should get an exemption.            

Didn't you post in another thread that you take pride in running deer over with your car? Using those regulations to kill deer of any sort? So how will this bill effect you exactly? I am sure God and Jesus do not approve of your hunting methods!

 

I still don't see why everyone is making a huge deal out of this. It's still in committee stages. Not even on the floor yet. Oh yeah right. This is NYS. Complaining is genetic.

Edited April 2, 2017 by ....rob

[Doc]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 7:01 PM, wolc123 said:

AR's may have made him look a little closer before pulling the trigger.  He had a few doe tags and a buck tag at the time.        

The kid was shooting what he thought was a DOE. He would have had no reason to worry about point-count even with ARs in place because he had already decided that it had no points. When you are filling a doe tag, ARs have no bearing on whether you pull the trigger or not. Once you have decided it is a doe and you have the necessary permit AR is no longer a part of your decision to shoot. He would have shot this deer anyway with or without ARs. So no, ARs would not have changed the outcome.

[wolc123]

5 hours ago, ....rob said:

Didn't you post in another thread that you take pride in running deer over with your car? Using those regulations to kill deer of any sort? So how will this bill effect you exactly? I am sure God and Jesus do not approve of your hunting methods!

 

I still don't see why everyone is making a huge deal out of this. It's still in committee stages. Not even on the floor yet. Oh yeah right. This is NYS. Complaining is genetic.

Fortunately, I have never killed a deer with my own vehicle.  That is no easy task, considering the overpopulated zone I drive thru every weekday on the way to and from work.   The Good Lord (thank you for bringing His name onto this post and earning a "like" from me) has blesed us with a dozen or so which have been struck by others, several of which were not dead and had to be finished off with my knife.  I am thankful (but not proud) to have been in position to quickly end their suffering.  Maybe those are the posts you are remembering.

 

Doc,  Would you more feel safe, less safe, or no different while hunting if AR's were in place?  It would be interesting to see some stats on average  deer hunting accidents in PA or the AR zones of NY before and after the AR's.  That might help prove that point (no pun intended) one way or another.    

Edited April 2, 2017 by wolc123