My take on antler restrictions

[dbHunterNY]

33 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

         I know this isn't at me but in the other thread does were brought up. I asked why Noone ever pushes for protecting younger does. I can't remember the exact words but it was asked. And ignored because no one wants to admit it is all about the bone. Antlers are rare? Seems to be a lot of pics posted of bucks every year. Plenty more of trail cam photos of them as well.

       An age structure as nature intended? Is there any data showing what nature had that age structure at before humans?  I do not mean before we started hunting them. I mean before wee were here. The moment humans got involved we changed 21st nature had and needed. Anything now is just a guess. Housing ,farming ,even predator hunting and anything else humans do changed nature's structure. We have no clue  what nature intended for a proper age structure. Maybe if we took a whole state and moved people out and let nature take over we could in time see what nature intended.until then everything else is a guess. We kill predators and they take out the oldest weakest and sickest the way nature intended. Humans can not make up for the lose of those predators thus skewing things. Humane manage for 21st they want not what nature wants or needs plain and simple. 

yea it wasn't directed to you.  i mean rare in a relative sense.  10's of thousands get taken every year.  as an educated guess, i'd say hunters in general see far more doe than bucks though.  more so as you look for antlers of size versus any antler. so in that sense they are rare.
it's not something to contest.  if we didn't shoot any deer and let nature do whatever, we'd have an age structure for both male and female.  the progression is seen in areas based on harvest and not just deer.  they do get to a point where nature chooses them, but that's far beyond practically anywhere hunting allows.  outside of that nature doesn't necessarily pick any particular adult age class to do it's damage.  nobody's arguing that we don't effect the wild game with the pull of a trigger or release of an arrow.  that's actually the point everyone should be making.  if we're going to effect them why not do so with their future in mind.  in certain areas of the country even here in NY deer go unhunted or lightly hunted and we see a resulting age structure.  deer die of old ages inevitably and ages in between for other reasons but there's an age structure and more than just something barely nonexistent past 3.5yrs old.  nature inevitably is best to determine what's fit to survive year to year outside of us pulling the trigger so let it decide that.  i'm saying this based off research, real life experience, and other stuff.  i'm not going to get into a fight to with links to reference thinking i'll sway your mind.  your mind is already made up.

[dbHunterNY]

19 hours ago, stubby68 said:

I agree with you but It really does not make you pass 1.5 year olds. There are more then a few 6, 8, and 10 point 1.5 year olds out there. All it does is make a few guys happy that others have to hunt the way they do.

you don't have to protect all of them just most of them. enough for a trickle effect into older age classes.  in some areas yearlings are mowed off each year and there's isn't much for bucks in both quantity and age structure.  according to many biologists i've talked to that's not a good thing.  think of it as ensuring no areas get left behind when it comes to the deer herd or its management.  or if you believe DEC numbers like your own bank account statements then by all means think hunting everywhere is fine and couldn't be better.

....i'll also add that if intentions were sincere for deer and not all about antlers you wouldn't give a damn if a buck with particularly higher number of points get shot.  that's trophy management.  we don't care about trophy's as it's subjective.

Edited April 3, 2017 by dbHunterNY

[DirtTime]

My take is let the hunter make thier own moral decisions on what they want to hunt.

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[wolc123]

4 hours ago, wfmiller said:

I keep seeing people say they would feel safer with AR's, that doesn't make since to me. If you have to spend more time looking at the deer to make sure it's legal, how does that help with knowing what is beyond your target? Your attention is focused on the deer more not what is around it. 

AR's might help safety or they might hurt it.  Maybe we could figure it out by looking at PA.  That state is about as close with hunter density and terrain to NY as any other.  There should be about 10 years worth of data that might help determine if AR's have improved or hurt safety there.  If they have hurt safety, then I would be against them.   It seems to me that slowing folks down a little and making them more sure of their target would be more apt to improve safety than to hurt it but I could be wrong.   A study of PA data should help eliminate the guesswork.  Improved hunter safety is the only reason I would support AR's.     

              

[G-Man]

19 hours ago, wolc123 said:

i would think these restrictions will decrease hunter safety as the hunter now is counting points and bybthebtime he sees its big and its about gone ..hurried unethical shots will follow because it might get away. 

Vs now when the 1st good shot presents itself people take it ... Big horns make people act funny..

 

[reeltime]

2 hours ago, wolc123 said:

AR's might help safety or they might hurt it.  Maybe we could figure it out by looking at PA.  That state is about as close with hunter density and terrain to NY as any other.  There should be about 10 years worth of data that might help determine if AR's have improved or hurt safety there.  If they have hurt safety, then I would be against them.   It seems to me that slowing folks down a little and making them more sure of their target would be more apt to improve safety than to hurt it but I could be wrong.   A study of PA data should help eliminate the guesswork.  Improved hunter safety is the only reason I would support AR's.     

              

you can not compare NY to PA.  the states are not even close by a long shot with hunter densities, and terrain has very little to do with AR success or failure.  what will also skew your perceived numbers is the vastly different hunting regulations like the fact that PA has a 250 sq. inch florescent orange requirement at all times while big game hunting unlike the NY regulation of not mandatory. Also no semi auto firearm for deer or bear. one of the biggest differences is that other than a few small area's the first week of the season is antlered only, the second week is either sex, by then a lot of folks have killed their 1 and only needed deer so the second week see's far less pressure.

Are there still hunting accidents (incidents) yes no different than here in NY.,  the $25.00 fine for mistakenly killing a sub AR buck are handed out few and far between, generally its the 250-500 fine.  While the first year of said 25.00 deal quite a few tried to do the right thing and got the stiffer fine and lost the deer, now for the most part sub legal deer are left to rot.

jr. hunters follow the old AR restrictions of spike 3" or better.   The seasons are set up far different from NY. as well.  Since the inclusion of crossbow the archery stamps sales have increased dramatically as well as the "archery" antlered harvest. I believe last years estimate the archery harvest was almost 40% of the entire antler take.

 

I have hunted Pa both as a resident and non resident for going on 39 years, NOTHING has caused more dissension among hunters as the AR/HR ( antler restriction, herd reduction) program. Since the inception of AR more land has been posted and more and more every year gets posted.  more and more shooting huts going up, food plots, poaching ( both at night and illegal baiting)  bottom line its become a greedy sport as far as deer hunting goes. 

bottom line is since AR it has become all about the size of the antlers.  Granted a lot of the posted land initially was done to protect the antlerless deer,  you have NEVER heard shooting like the first year of AR/HR when it was also the first time ever of either sex the monday after thanksgiving.  I was there, couldn't even count the shots but I distinctly remember never having a 30 second span from dark to dark without shots being fired that I could hear. They decimated the deer herd in 2 seasons before they put a stop to the combined season the traditional first day.  The PGC was reluctant to drop it so people posted to protect the antlerless deer because there are too many people that just HAVE to fill every tag every year.

 

As I have said before, does not matter to me if NY does it or not, its not going to change the way I hunt nor what I choose to shoot.  I hunt for the challenge and the enjoyment of time outdoors.

 

 

[Death From Above]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 7:02 PM, upstatehunter said:

Im seeing more and more push for this......i truely believe it is more wanting to brag about a huge rack then to see a buck have time to live and not die at a year old.....i have come to this conclusion by not seeing any of these people care if a doe is killed at a year old.....why just a buck and not a doe.....i say its just to have something to hold and brag.......greed is the end result....not meat or the excitement of hunting 

 

Seriously?  Are we now concerned about gender discrimination when considering AR?  Really?  Like its unjust or unfair that hunters are concerned about letting the bucks get older and not the does?  This sounds like a subject for the ACLU.

Think about that for a second, please.

Situation A.  10 does walk in the field, which one gets shot?  9 out of 10 hunters picks the biggest doe and shoot, which likely is one of, if not the oldest in the group.  That typically means a doe older than 1.5.

Situation B.  5 does walk by, which one gets shot?  If the hunter can maintain their excitement and not shoot the first one (which is often an older doe anyways), they pick out which one?  Likely the biggest doe once again and still is typically older than 1.5.

Situation C.  Two does come into range, which one is shot?  Once again, most hunters shoot the bigger one, and if they are both does its typically the older of the two deer.  This scenario (2 flatheads) often leads to a lot of button bucks getting shot from what I have seed or herd from hunting stories from friends, etc.

Situation D.  A lone doe walks out, does it get shot?  If it appears to be a good size doe, many will shoot.  If it looks like a fawn, many will pass.  I still, after more than 30 years of hunting, try not to harvest lone does, even though I feel like I am a decent judge of deer age.  Just not worth shooting a button buck to me personally.

Situation E.  One buck, and five does of assorted ages walk in a field, which one gets evaluated as the deer to shoot the most?  The buck, in most scenarios.  If they do not have a buck tag, or decide it is not a buck they want to harvest, which deer gets shot?  Most would once again, shoot the largest doe.

My point?  Most hunters already shoot older does when provided a choice, whether it is on purpose or not.  While there are all kinds of variables that affect the situations I provided above, I think it is within the realm of reason to assume that many, if not most hunters would already be practicing “doe age management” - if there is such a thing.  I really never concerned myself about it until I read this idea here.  I had no idea we should be concerned about this great injustice.  Add the fact that there are simply so many more does than bucks out there in many parts of this state then it also seems fairly reasonable more does are provided the opportunity to grow older anyways. 

I think it is quite apparent that due to the quest of more meat, or “150 pound does”, and who knows what other reasons that we already are quite capable as a state to make decisions that means passing on younger does in favor of the older ones.  AR’s are being suggested because it is the male deer that we as hunters don’t always look for older ones to harvest in the herd.  YES, I KNOW THAT SOME DO NOT CARE ABOUT THIS FACT. 

So finally, five bucks walk out, which one gets shot?  Once again just about every hunter shoots the biggest one unless they are on a canned hunt and have to pay some insane trophy fee.  I know that was a crazy reach for an example of when a hunter might not shoot a largest racked deer…but hey, some of these pros and cons on display here for or against AR are just as little bit of a reach as well.

[growalot]

SailingHudson...no kidding! Just found out from neighbor a local got caught with a slew of buck heads and charged with poaching ,no tagging and jacking. They were asking if the DEC would revoke their licence and if they called would they tell them. I said being region 8 they'd have better luck getting the info from outdoor news.. Probably the guy that jacked deer of our place a few years ago..one down out here a dozen or so to go....

Oh also found out the local hunting " club" that has leased up a whole bunch of farm land around us just added another 2 farms...knocking more young guys out of the picture for those properties..All big buck hunters.

Edited April 4, 2017 by growalot

[ncountry]

My thoughts on AR have changed. I initially  supported restrictions. I hunt 2 areas .. 1 area with ARs and locally without.. odds of shooting a buck are way higher in the area with AR. Not only are there 2 1/2+ year old bucks all over there are more of them. 

I keep thinking if locals would just take it easy on the young ones there would be many older bucks locally  as well.. The same people wining about the lack of bucks especially  older bucks are usually the same ones that shoot the 1st thing with horns that steps out.. Kinda bugs me a little..

The problem locally is due more to the fact that the women are better hunters than the men.. They always fill there tags 1st. I'm sure this is legit occasionally, but most haven't stepped foot in the woods 

I have come back around to not supporting AR. Even though I would support AR over OBR. I don't like the direction our hunting is going.. Less about the hunt and more about the trophy. 

I am a deer hunter 1st. I will take enough does to eat.  I have taken a pile of young bucks when i was younger.  Just because ive " graduated " to targeting more mature bucks doesnt mean everyone has too... Same goes for the 1buck rule.. I dont want to be punished for someone elses lack of restraint.  Heck, I wouldn't care if the 2nd buck tag required 8 points and 15" spread. At least I would still be out there hunting. I've killed a number of 8 to 10 points and waited for something bigger than 140" for my 2nd tag. You know how many times I've succeeded? Not once ....yet...lol. Personally, I'm afraid  obr  would just lead to many years without a buck. Eventually this would decrease my hunting satisfaction and be frustrating. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

27 minutes ago, ncountry said:

My thoughts on AR have changed. I initially  supported restrictions. I hunt 2 areas .. 1 area with ARs and locally without.. odds of shooting a buck are way higher in the area with AR. Not only are there 2 1/2+ year old bucks all over there are more of them. 

I keep thinking if locals would just take it easy on the young ones there would be many older bucks locally  as well.. The same people wining about the lack of bucks especially  older bucks are usually the same ones that shoot the 1st thing with horns that steps out.. Kinda bugs me a little..

The problem locally is due more to the fact that the women are better hunters than the men.. They always fill there tags 1st. I'm sure this is legit occasionally, but most haven't stepped foot in the woods 

I have come back around to not supporting AR. Even though I would support AR over OBR. I don't like the direction our hunting is going.. Less about the hunt and more about the trophy. 

I am a deer hunter 1st. I will take enough does to eat.  I have taken a pile of young bucks when i was younger.  Just because ive " graduated " to targeting more mature bucks doesnt mean everyone has too... Same goes for the 1buck rule.. I dont want to be punished for someone elses lack of restraint.  Heck, I wouldn't care if the 2nd buck tag required 8 points and 15" spread. At least I would still be out there hunting. I've killed a number of 8 to 10 points and waited for something bigger than 140" for my 2nd tag. You know how many times I've succeeded? Not once ....yet...lol. Personally, I'm afraid  obr  would just lead to many years without a buck. Eventually this would decrease my hunting satisfaction and be frustrating. 

Now you are hunting in both areas without AR  Wont take long for that area to go back to where it used to be. Just with a lot less deer aroud to chase. lol

[ncountry]

11 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Now you are hunting in both areas without AR  Wont take long for that area to go back to where it used to be. Just with a lot less deer aroud to chase. lol

I know, right?. I am a terrible  fence sitter on AR.. while I am mostly on the side of no AR now, I do like what I have seen as a result. If the park becomes like home with 20 little bucks for every bigger one I am switching sides again..lol . I am really hoping the dropping of AR on the park isn't the end of an era. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

11 minutes ago, ncountry said:

I know, right?. I am a terrible  fence sitter on AR.. while I am mostly on the side of no AR now, I do like what I have seen as a result. If the park becomes like home with 20 little bucks for every bigger one I am switching sides again..lol . I am really hoping the dropping of AR on the park isn't the end of an era. 

Sad but its not looking good for our home team or even any of 8m....... Just have to go deeper in the river i guess! lol

 

[ncountry]

18 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Sad but its not looking good for our home team or even any of 8m....... Just have to go deeper in the river i guess! lol

 

True. Makes me think that this may be a decent example of what is/could happen in N.Y.. If the hunting goes to crap , we probably would start seriously consider spending our 2 weeks In another state, an I absolutely love hunting the park..We have talked about elk trips etc.. And we all said we would have to schedule it around the time we hunt the park.

Realistically 3 points or better AR is not that much of a restriction. I bet 50% or better of 1 1/2 year olds have 3 points on 1 side.

Edited April 4, 2017 by ncountry
Wrong #

[Five Seasons]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 7:02 PM, upstatehunter said:

Im seeing more and more push for this......i truely believe it is more wanting to brag about a huge rack then to see a buck have time to live and not die at a year old.....i have come to this conclusion by not seeing any of these people care if a doe is killed at a year old.....why just a buck and not a doe.....i say its just to have something to hold and brag.......greed is the end result....not meat or the excitement of hunting 

Where did you ever think AR's were to allow animals to live longer? what a weird thing for a hunter to say. AR's are strictly to provide more opportunities to harvest larger bodied and antlered deer. Never has anyone said they wanted AR's so deer could live longer... what a weird post.

[Buckmaster7600]

True. Makes me think that this may be a decent example of what is/could happen in N.Y.. If the hunting goes to crap , we probably would start seriously consider spending our 2 weeks In another state, an I absolutely love hunting the park..We have talked about elk trips etc.. And we all said we would have to schedule it around the time we hunt the park.
Realistically 3 points or better AR is not that much of a restriction. I bet 50% or better of 1 1/2 year olds have 3 points on 1 side.

And that's 50% that can't legally be killed. To 1/2 of the yr old bucks getting a pass is a big number. To those that keep showing pictures and bringing up the "many" yr olds that have 3,4,5pts on a side even if 50% of them did have a "legal" amount of points that means 50% get a pass.

That being said I don't like AR's and won't support them I just thing using the exception to a rule as your argument is ridiculous.


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[chas0218]

On 4/2/2017 at 7:44 PM, Matthewsshooter said:

Sure there are some for bragging, there are some for personal achievement, some like to watch them grow.  Your take is simply your opinion means more than theirs. Pointless thread

I have to agree but for me less of the first. I see the amount of bone on their head as an achievement to myself knowing I passed that deer and outsmarted him as he got older and wiser. I also will only take a mature doe, I refuse to shoot a small deer, and I don't buy the "they taste better" argument I have prepared 5.5 year old deer that taste just as good as a yearling. 

[Buckmaster7600]

2 hours ago, chas0218 said:

I have to agree but for me less of the first. I see the amount of bone on their head as an achievement to myself knowing I passed that deer and outsmarted him as he got older and wiser. I also will only take a mature doe, I refuse to shoot a small deer, and I don't buy the "they taste better" argument I have prepared 5.5 year old deer that taste just as good as a yearling. 

 

 

I don't totally agree with the taste part, just because that has everything to do with habitat. Every deer that I have shot in the Adirondacks over 3yrs old taste like crap. They are alright in a sausage but to just eat a steak or a plain burger they are awful.


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Edited April 4, 2017 by WNYBuckHunter
inappropriate language, plese see the forum TOS

[growalot]

5.5 year old what? buck?...been eating deer since I was young, Grandfather and grandmother hunted deer.. only nasty tasting deer I have ever eaten or prepared were old rutty buck...and I've prepared a good many 1 1/2,2 1/2 yr. old buck  that tasted no different than a doe

[dbHunterNY]

knowing that you can still shoot some yearlings and most 2.5 yr olds, along with the fact many will pull the trigger as soon as a buck grows into something legal i wouldn't think ARs have much to do with concerns for meat quality with bucks close to maturity.  i've eaten older bucks from many southern tier areas and it was still good.  any mandated ARs alone aren't going to be forcing you in a position to eat very many bucks over 3.5 yr old.

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

I don't totally agree with the taste part, just because that has everything to do with habitat. Every deer that I have shot in the Adirondacks over 3yrs old taste like shit. They are alright in a sausage but to just eat a steak or a plain burger they are awful.


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Yeah but I was referring to where the antler restrictions are supposed to take place.

 

1 hour ago, growalot said:

5.5 year old what? buck?...been eating deer since I was young, Grandfather and grandmother hunted deer.. only nasty tasting deer I have ever eaten or prepared were old rutty buck...and I've prepared a good many 1 1/2,2 1/2 yr. old buck  that tasted no different than a doe

Yeah 5.5 buck, I can't comment on how old the doe I have shot were only to say they weren't yearlings. I haven't ever sent out the doe's jaws.

[Grizz1219]

I'm still wondering if the guys that are totally against AR's will continue to hunt?? To be fair, that would be the best way to hurt the pockets of the F&W dept.... For me.... I am all for the 1 buck per year rule... if you want to wait for a big buck, wait.. you want to shoot a spike.. shoot it and you are done shooting bucks for the year... I already don't shoot anything less than 6 point, prefer 8 pointers... I run cameras 4 months before the season so I have an idea on what bucks are the larger in the area and target them.. But, if my wife is hunting or another rookie.. They should be able to shoot any buck I think.. so I am not for AR's but will live with them if it happens in my zones... The one thing that needs to change is more doe permits in certain areas... We have such a high Doe to buck ratio it's hurting the herd... 

[Buckmaster7600]

I'm still wondering if the guys that are totally against AR's will continue to hunt?? To be fair, that would be the best way to hurt the pockets of the F&W dept.... For me.... I am all for the 1 buck per year rule... if you want to wait for a big buck, wait.. you want to shoot a spike.. shoot it and you are done shooting bucks for the year... I already don't shoot anything less than 6 point, prefer 8 pointers... I run cameras 4 months before the season so I have an idea on what bucks are the larger in the area and target them.. But, if my wife is hunting or another rookie.. They should be able to shoot any buck I think.. so I am not for AR's but will live with them if it happens in my zones... The one thing that needs to change is more doe permits in certain areas... We have such a high Doe to buck ratio it's hurting the herd... 

With the current bill I'm not affected, if it covered where my camp is in the Adirondacks I would sell it and hunt more out of state.


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[chas0218]

On 4/2/2017 at 10:19 PM, stubby68 said:

I agree with you but It really does not make you pass 1.5 year olds. There are more then a few 6, 8, and 10 point 1.5 year olds out there. All it does is make a few guys happy that others have to hunt the way they do.

Ok so how many have you saw? I have been hunting for 16 years I have saw only one 1.5 year old that was an exemption to the rule he was an 8 point. I'm sorry but for you to make a statement that assumes there are so many 1.5 year old deer out there that are 8 points and bigger then you shouldn't be concerned about the AR's if that is your stance. You like so many on the other thread about this are using no factual data. If that is the case show me I am wrong put up some game cam photos of huge number of 8 point 1.5 year olds. I have saw 1 photo so far from WNY none from you so if you want to make this claim put up or shut up.

On 4/2/2017 at 8:12 PM, The_Real_TCIII said:

I've killed a whole lot of deer, small bucks big bucks button bucks and all ages of does. I still kill a small buck once in a while if the mood strikes me. If AR came along I'd be fine with it, ok I have to pass 1.5 year old bucks no problem. But I absolutely hate making someone else who maybe only gets to hunt one weekend or just wants their freezer filled pass on a deer they want so I can kill a bigger buck next year. Same for a new hunter, a kid, whoever. I think it sucks to be honest with you. I also think we have plenty of mature bucks to hunt. Who here that puts in their time doesn't get their eyes on at least one every year?? Other than that I have no opinion on the subject.


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I think if looking at the big picture how many of those deer will not be around 1 or 2 years from now from what I have saw on my own property and others I hunt in 2 years we had 4 8 points over 100" and another big 8 I passed 3 times this year over 130". I think if someone has the drive to be a hunter and doesn't give up after 1 season they will be successful the next.

Edited April 4, 2017 by chas0218

[The_Real_TCIII]

Flame away but there is no chance in hell I'm passing 130" 8 points in NY. And if my neighbor did and gave me grief for shooting it he'd get a groin punch. That's great if you are, that's a serious commitment to holding out


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[stoneam2006]

Passing on small deer doesn't make you a hunter...it makes you a trophy gatherer...



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