Do You Support Crossbow Full Inclusion into the NY Archery Season?

[Jmny]

14 hours ago, wolc123 said:

The NY restrictions currently include a minimum uncocked width and a maximum draw weight.  I believe that the higher speed models you are referencing exceed the maximum allowable draw weight in NY.    The draw weight is a critical component of achieving high speed, much more so than the uncocked width, so that should be included in your research.    

Actually they fall short of the axle to axle minimum width of 17 inches uncocked. Drawing a crossbow over 200 pound draw weight is tenuous for most hunters especially if they have a longer power stroke.( distance in string from uncocked to resting place when under full load, fully cocked with safety on,  so most manufactures attempt to get more speed & KE. From adjusting the power stroke to be longer in length .

Edited November 7, 2017 by Jmny

[WNYBuckHunter]

The minimum width is not axle to axle. It’s limbtip to limbtip. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The minimum width is not axle to axle. It’s limbtip to limbtip. 

Oh don’t go confusing things with facts. I’m enjoying his alternate reality.

[Jmny]

9 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Oh do t go confusing things with facts. I’m enjoying his alternate reality.

 

9 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Oh do t go confusing things with facts. I’m enjoying his alternate reality.

Read the specifications listed in each description of bow for sale. It states the width as axle to axle.  I believe the New York State registration stipulates same but I would have to verify this before stating it as fact.

[Jmny]

NYs regulation does in fact use the wording limb tip to limb tip.

[Jmny]

I have read many options on this thread that deal with 100 yard  hunting shots on deer in the woods as a reason why a percentage of archery hunters are against inclusion of the crossbow for the entire archery season. Which I found to be ludicrous. Propelling an arrow one hundred yards in the woods attempting o clear tree branches that you can’t even perceive while aiming.  Illustrates extreme unsportsmanship.  And a total lack of hunting skills.  I’ve seen videos on YouTube of individuals that claim to have taken 100 yard shots, I won’t contest there honesty, but look at the scenery.  The one guy shot an elk by shooting through a group of pine trees that didn’t have any branches on the lower12 to 15 feet.the pine rolls were evenly spread about 4 feet apart.  The animal was standing in an open field approximately 30-40 yards into the field.  And aside from the perfect shooting situation nothing in the way to deflect arrow.  In addition to the hunter was supported by a shooting table.

Then there those percentage of hunters that actually have to project into the future and anticipate their belief of technology advancements to justify their negative views of the crossbow.  Others feel that they  possess some superior hunting skills over the use of crossbow hunters.  Now if these individuals really believed their own words, they wouldn’t found the need to move up to a much easier compound bow.   The recurve is the most difficult, requires strength to hold fifty pounds at full draw, even if your cheating using a release.

But I started to do a little research on 100 yard shots and googled best sights for archery season. And to my surprise the following sights for compound bows with pins to 100 yards were listed “ Best compound bow sights”

1) trophy ridge Recall 1 Pro dovetail.  Set pin to 20 and 30 yards.  Your are now sighted in to 100 yards   This bow is set for 330fps -265 FPS.

2) optimizer lite ultra 5000. Sight in at 20 & 80 yards then 

there are 3 more that you presight in to 100 yards.  

It really was a shocking discovery fo me. In my day of compound Hunting we had maximum draws of 50%.  And speeds of 225-275. Now a group of manufactures have developed a sight for compound bows to 100 yards.  Still don’t believe you should take any shoot over 50 yards with an arrow.  But that’s my standard not one I would apply to other hunters.  They have to make their own decision on limitations .

Bottom line I can’t speak to technological improvements in the future. As I believe others can’t.  If in fact they can, they should capitalize financially on their visions.

 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I have read many options on this thread that deal with 100 yard  hunting shots on deer in the woods as a reason why a percentage of archery hunters are against inclusion of the crossbow for the entire archery season. Which I found to be ludicrous. Propelling an arrow one hundred yards in the woods attempting o clear tree branches that you can’t even perceive while aiming.  Illustrates extreme unsportsmanship.  And a total lack of hunting skills.  I’ve seen videos on YouTube of individuals that claim to have taken 100 yard shots, I won’t contest there honesty, but look at the scenery.  The one guy shot an elk by shooting through a group of pine trees that didn’t have any branches on the lower12 to 15 feet.the pine rolls were evenly spread about 4 feet apart.  The animal was standing in an open field approximately 30-40 yards into the field.  And aside from the perfect shooting situation nothing in the way to deflect arrow.  In addition to the hunter was supported by a shooting table.
Then there those percentage of hunters that actually have to project into the future and anticipate their belief of technology advancements to justify their negative views of the crossbow.  Others feel that they  possess some superior hunting skills over the use of crossbow hunters.  Now if these individuals really believed their own words, they wouldn’t found the need to move up to a much easier compound bow.   The recurve is the most difficult, requires strength to hold fifty pounds at full draw, even if your cheating using a release.
But I started to do a little research on 100 yard shots and googled best sights for archery season. And to my surprise the following sights for compound bows with pins to 100 yards were listed “ Best compound bow sights”
1) trophy ridge Recall 1 Pro dovetail.  Set pin to 20 and 30 yards.  Your are now sighted in to 100 yards   This bow is set for 330fps -265 FPS.
2) optimizer lite ultra 5000. Sight in at 20 & 80 yards then 
there are 3 more that you presight in to 100 yards.  
It really was a shocking discovery fo me. In my day of compound Hunting we had maximum draws of 50%.  And speeds of 225-275. Now a group of manufactures have developed a sight for compound bows to 100 yards.  Still don’t believe you should take any shoot over 50 yards with an arrow.  But that’s my standard not one I would apply to other hunters.  They have to make their own decision on limitations .
Bottom line I can’t speak to technological improvements in the future. As I believe others can’t.  If in fact they can, they should capitalize financially on their visions.
 
 

Big difference between compounds shooting 100yds and an Xbow shooting 100yds. You take 100 compound shooters and 100 Xbow shooters both with sights able to adjust to 100yd zero, I bet less than 5 compound shooters hit the target and over 50% of Xbow shooters hit the target" probably more depending on wind."

You're posting the exact same posts that have been posted on here for 5 years. No one is changing their mind those of us against full inclusion still are against it, those hat are for it are still for it and those that don't care still don't care.


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[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

You're posting the exact same posts that have been posted on here for 5 years. No one is changing their mind those of us against full inclusion still are against it, those hat are for it are still for it and those that don't care still don't care.


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Not true at all. We have members that have changed their stance. 

[chas0218]

3 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Big difference between compounds shooting 100yds and an Xbow shooting 100yds. You take 100 compound shooters and 100 Xbow shooters both with sights able to adjust to 100yd zero, I bet less than 5 compound shooters hit the target and over 50% of Xbow shooters hit the target" probably more depending on wind."

You're posting the exact same posts that have been posted on here for 5 years. No one is changing their mind those of us against full inclusion still are against it, those hat are for it are still for it and those that don't care still don't care.


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I have to agree, I have only 1 person admit to changing their stance and was not because of the forum. Just beating a dead horse.

@Jmny no offense but you bring up all the same points that have been brought up in the past umpteenth threads and the reasons most don't want the full inclusion. There is no point to this and the arguing just gets old. You and others refuse to accept the facts presented by those opposed and just deny and deflect.

Edited November 7, 2017 by chas0218

[Buckmaster7600]

Not true at all. We have members that have changed their stance. 

Maybe I missed it but I have been following these threads for 3 years now and haven't saw anyone admit to changing their opinion.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

9 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

. You and others refuse to accept the facts presented by those opposed and just deny and deflect.

What "facts" aren't accepted? Seems to me there is mechanical details that about everyone I see on here agrees with. The rest seems to be opinion on whether or not to include with a host of different reasons but those aren't facts. Which ones are you referencing. 

[ncountry]

I haven't changed my opinion on full inclusion.. But they are fun to shoot, and stupid accurate. I wouldnt fold a 100$ bill in 1/2 and plan on getting it back without being perforated  at 65 yds.. I bought one to use.. i am sticking with my compound for now.. But I think I will break out my new toy this week for a few  days... 

[518BowSlayer]

I understand both sides of the argument but lean slightly towards not having full inclusion. I think a lot of us bow hunters just don't want any more hunting pressure during the early season. Let's be honest, it can be a giant cluster f come gun season. Especially opening day. It's the fly by night, shoot at anything, trespassing, no scouting, leaving garbage behind kind of hunters who ruin it for the rest of us. How many times have you had a hunt ruined because some guy is just walking around aimlessly a half hour after sunrise without any regard for wind direction, scent control, or other hunters? It's hard to argue this point on a forum like this because just the fact that your on a forum like this is proof that you put more time and effort in hunting than most. And probably have a much deeper appreciation and passion for it. I think that there's a fear that if crossbows had full inclusion there would be a wave of people in the woods who think you can just walk around and point you scope at anything brown and pull the trigger. Would that be the case? Maybe, maybe not. I totally understand people with shoulder injuries or disabled wanting it all season and if there's a way to enforce that only they get to use them, I'm all for that. I just don't want more a-hole hunters out early. This will probably fall on deaf ears because like I said before. The fact that your on a forum like this means you're probably not one of those a-hole hunters

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[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Maybe I missed it but I have been following these threads for 3 years now and haven't saw anyone admit to changing their opinion.


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There have been people in this years threads that said it. 

[Jmny]

5 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Not true at all. We have members that have changed their stance. 

Well let’s address the point of being redundant.  It might be true. But the fact that you continuously  choose  to read new postings and express your view points is somewhat amazing.  This discussion has a title, dealing with crossbow inclusion.  Yet you can’t stay away from a subject that has had almost 500 responses.( is which I would guess at least 10-15 are yours). Must be a strong desire to justify your opinion on the subject matter .  And the manner you choose to justify your belief will never happen.  If you can get 200 hunters ( half compound half crossbow shoot at targets 100 yards away. It will be time for me to give up hunting.  If there are that many irresponsible archery hunters occupying the woods, it’s not safe for me.  But the funniest part is even though it would never happen, you actually make a prediction on the results!!!!  Just wondering how you arrived at those predictions.  And how you justify them?  And please keep your answer factual.  Seems a large percentage of those that want to keep the crossbow non inclusive tend to post non factional reasoning.  Whether it be some type of activity that is impractical or deals with their unique ability to see into the future. ( ie  technological advancements.   It’s very difficult to discuss your opinion when the other side takes such liberties as supporting their argument with non factual      Information. Deal with reality .  The choices that I perceive to keep the crossbow non inclusive for the entire archery season are twofold.  The first would be the oppurtunity to have less competition for areas to hunt on public land.  The second point would be the macho aspect that many compound users referred to in their posts.  They earned the “right” to have exclusive rights hunt deer for the first 34 days of archery season.  That it is to easy to take A deer with a compound.   Well it’s kind of a tough sell to say you earned the right, when by claiming that right, your denying a large percentage of former recurve and compound hunters with 20-40 years of archery hunting experience the right to continue pursuing deer during the entire archery season. Without all the technological advancements of the compound bow to date.

seems every reasoning I read falls into these two categories.  Now I realize, that most compound hunters will find my opinion troublesome.  I welcome another reasoning if you are dealing with present day factual reasoning.

i have hunted for 47 years, approximately 30 with a bow,.  And have always prided myself as a law abiding and ethical hunter.  But to be honest, with the state telling me that my crossbow is basically a muzzleloader ( check the differences in speed and Kinetic energy of both). Muzzleloader  50 yards 2031 FPS/ Kinetic energy 2290 ft lbs.  crossbow @ 50 yards  390 fps and kinetic energy 142 ft lbs.  Now does that look comparable to you????  Now compared to compounds within 75-100 fps and kinetic energy approximately 50 ft lbs.

 I have contemplated using my crossbow the entire archery season. I have four private separate  parcels of woods to hunt. Totaling 129 acres.  If I have contemplate this I wonder how many others with private land have actually contemplated the same or followed through and hunted with their crossbows during the entire archery season on private land. Have many more years of quality hunting behind me than in front of me. 

 

Addressed in response EC to bucknaster 7699 posting.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Jmny

[Jmny]

Response to Buckmaster 7600

[Buckmaster7600]

Well let’s address the point of being redundant.  It might be true. But the fact that you continuously  choose  to read new postings and express your view points is somewhat amazing.  This discussion has a title, dealing with crossbow inclusion.  Yet you can’t stay away from a subject that has had almost 500 responses.( is which I would guess at least 10-15 are yours). Must be a strong desire to justify your opinion on the subject matter .  And the manner you choose to justify your belief will never happen.  If you can get 200 hunters ( half compound half crossbow shoot at targets 100 yards away. It will be time for me to give up hunting.  If there are that many irresponsible archery hunters occupying the woods, it’s not safe for me.  But the funniest part is even though it would never happen, you actually make a prediction on the results!!!!  Just wondering how you arrived at those predictions.  And how you justify them?  And please keep your answer factual.  Seems a large percentage of those that want to keep the crossbow non inclusive tend to post non factional reasoning.  Whether it be some type of activity that is impractical or deals with their unique ability to see into the future. ( ie  technological advancements.   It’s very difficult to discuss your opinion when the other side takes such liberties as supporting their argument with non factual      Information. Deal with reality .  The choices that I perceive to keep the crossbow non inclusive for the entire archery season are twofold.  The first would be the oppurtunity to have less competition for areas to hunt on public land.  The second point would be the macho aspect that many compound users referred to in their posts.  They earned the “right” to have exclusive rights hunt deer for the first 34 days of archery season.  That it is to easy to take A deer with a compound.   Well it’s kind of a tough sell to say you earned the right, when by claiming that right, your denying a large percentage of former recurve and compound hunters with 20-40 years of archery hunting experience the right to continue pursuing deer during the entire archery season. Without all the technological advancements of the compound bow to date.

seems every reasoning I read falls into these two categories.  Now I realize, that most compound hunters will find my opinion troublesome.  I welcome another reasoning if you are dealing with present day factual reasoning.

i have hunted for 47 years, approximately 30 with a bow,.  And have always prided myself as a law abiding and ethical hunter.  But to be honest, with the state telling me that my crossbow is basically a muzzleloader ( check the differences in speed and Kinetic energy of both). Muzzleloader  50 yards 2031 FPS/ Kinetic energy 2290 ft lbs.  crossbow @ 50 yards  390 fps and kinetic energy 142 ft lbs.  Now does that look comparable to you????  Now compared to compounds within 75-100 fps and kinetic energy approximately 50 ft lbs.

 I have contemplated using my crossbow the entire archery season. I have four private separate  parcels of woods to hunt. Totaling 129 acres.  If I have contemplate this I wonder how many others with private land have actually contemplated the same or followed through and hunted with their crossbows during the entire archery season on private land. Have many more years of quality hunting behind me than in front of me. 

 

Addressed in response EC to bucknaster 7699 posting.

 

 

You win, I give up. Where do I sign up to support full inclusion?

 

As to toting it when not legal have at it, I know of many that do. My new Xbow doesn't fit within NY's stupid restrictions.

 

 

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[chas0218]

6 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

What "facts" aren't accepted? Seems to me there is mechanical details that about everyone I see on here agrees with. The rest seems to be opinion on whether or not to include with a host of different reasons but those aren't facts. Which ones are you referencing. 

The ones presented earlier in this thread or another by myself and others. One fact that they are closer to a gun than a vertical bow. you load it sit and wait shoulder click the safety and pull the trigger. Only argument people make is that it uses limbs and a string, everything else are parts found in a gun. Even terms associated with a crossbow are ones used when referencing firearms. It may not be a firearm but certainly isn't a bow. It is in fact its own entity and as fitting in its own season. To include it as a vertical or an even further stretch traditional bow is asinine.

[chas0218]

50 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

You win, I give up. Where do I sign up to support full inclusion?

 

As to toting it when not legal have at it, I know of many that do. My new Xbow doesn't fit within NY's stupid restrictions.

 

 

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Hey if you're going to be illegal you might as well do it right.

[fasteddie]

2 hours ago, Jmny said:

i have hunted for 47 years, approximately 30 with a bow,.  And have always prided myself as a law abiding and ethical hunter.  But to be honest, with the state telling me that my crossbow is basically a muzzleloader ( check the differences in speed and Kinetic energy of both). Muzzleloader  50 yards 2031 FPS/ Kinetic energy 2290 ft lbs.  crossbow @ 50 yards  390 fps and kinetic energy 142 ft lbs.  Now does that look comparable to you????  Now compared to compounds within 75-100 fps and kinetic energy approximately 50 ft lbs.

 

 

 

 

 

How many responses have you made to this thread pushing your agenda ?  Hmmmmm

As for stating that someone compares a Crossbow to a ML is rediculous . The reason you need a ML permit for a crossbow is due to the fact that it isn't being considered under the archery definition ( yet ) . To hunt with the crossbow , It has to be listed somewhere . 

You're beating a dead horse !

[Culvercreek hunt club]

38 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

The ones presented earlier in this thread or another by myself and others. One fact that they are closer to a gun than a vertical bow. you load it sit and wait shoulder click the safety and pull the trigger. Only argument people make is that it uses limbs and a string, everything else are parts found in a gun. Even terms associated with a crossbow are ones used when referencing firearms. It may not be a firearm but certainly isn't a bow. It is in fact its own entity and as fitting in its own season. To include it as a vertical or an even further stretch traditional bow is asinine.

We really need to have an open discussion and education effort on what facts and opinions are. I do agree they have a trigger and a stock. that is a fact. That they are closer to a gun than a bow is an opinion and one not shared by many many State environmental agencies across the nation.  and the part just before this underlined and in bold is also a fact. 

[Five Seasons]

Yawn

 

 

If I changed my mind on anything it’s that I won’t fight against the xbow any longer. It’s certainly not going to be outlawed again. However I do think it’s neat in a way to have a “special” season for it. Changing things up midsession is fun. Not for me, but I get it.

 

Right now I will spend my money on a new Matthews as mine is approaching 15 years old.

 

 

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[SteveB]

5 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

We really need to have an open discussion and education effort on what facts and opinions are. I do agree they have a trigger and a stock. that is a fact. That they are closer to a gun than a bow is an opinion and one not shared by many many State environmental agencies across the nation.  and the part just before this underlined and in bold is also a fact. 

This is an example of a fact. Some should observe that.

[ADK Native]

I support all the positions of the NYCC on use of crossbows.

Like any hunting implement (firearms, bow or crossbow) it is an ethical obligation of every hunter to be proficient enough with that implement to kill on the first shot and honestly accept their limitations.  Paper is targets, animals are not.

[Nomad]

Random thoughts of a 28 year bow hunter . First I was against them , then I tolerated them, finally excepted them , this year bought one . I've owned two compounds since '89 killed a buck,my first year and most years since , longest shot I ve took was 25 yards , most 15 ish .

Shoulders are shot  so I got an Xbow to finish the season . My first thought , man it's heavy , and bulky, easy to shoot yep . I hate it in a hang on stand , it's nice on a big ladder with shooting rails , but man I bump those rails with it a lot .... My compound shoots 250 fps my Xbow 340 , it better be fast because it's way way louder then my compound . I don't see shooting over 40 yards with it and that from a couple stands I got in open areas , most don't have that much open areas to shoot .

I hate holding that big  heavy thing on stand , in my triple trees it doesn't fit between the trunks , I would take good shoulders and my old compound for,the Xbow any day , yet I'm grateful I can hunt with it , I hope to kill one buck a year with it , just like I did with my compounds .