Made the switch

[WNYBuckHunter]

16 minutes ago, OtiscoPaul said:

I'm starting to sound like a broken record around here but in my experience if you are NOT shooting heavy arrows and DW (500 grain arrows and over 70lb DW) then ANY mechanical is gonna eat momentum and result in what I have repeatedly observed as unethical penetration on otherwise perfect shots.

I am now shooting heavy arrows and decent DW and I will still never go back to mechanicals or any other BH w/thin blades or a gimmick.

I'll get the off the well worn soapbox.

 

I shoot 63 lbs and have @ 450-460 gr arrows and have punched a Rage all the way through a 3.5 year old buck at 40 yards. He dropped 40 yards later. The broadhead went through multiple ribs with no issues and a blind kid could have followed the blood trail. I also know a few guys that use them shooting 50 lbs with similar weight arrows and have no problems with pass throughs. Im not saying theres anything wrong with fixed blades, but saying you need to shoot a 70lb bow and 500 gr telephone poles for mechanicals is not accurate at all.

[chas0218]

13 hours ago, Core said:

I guess the point is, though, that the $1 wouldn't exist without the $15. The chinese company did not invent anything, they just stole it. The US company developed it because they could sell it for $15. If only $5, they wouldn't have had enough margin to bother. It looks like they didn't even steal it terribly well. I know these heads are working okay for people, but the screw is very proud of the head. You can buy these for $1 because chinese labor costs a couple of dollars an hour, the factory that is making them stole the design and is not paying royalties of any sort, nor did they spend any money on R&D, nor do they spend any on marketing.

It's basically akin to a guy at a software company working on a team of people and they all develop software over a long period of time, then he starts sneaking the code onto a flash drive and selling it on the black market for pennies. 

I do think the margin on broadheads must be pretty high, especially with some of the cheaper (legitimate) ones costing half the price of similarly functioning legitimate ones (much of the difference is just profit), but there's no way a US company can possibly develop a head and put it to market at $3/pack. Even the cheap allen fixed from walmart are $7/pack. I would guess that is approximately as cheap as they can be made for while maintaining any profit margin.

Yeah but the brand name rage are also made in china so labor cost is a wash. Now the design I'm using might be different to keep from infringing on patents maybe not . I understand what you mean but do you remember when they first came out you could buy 3 for $30 now they are $45 with the plastic shock collar? I know the shock collars don't cost $7 to make anyone with a injection molder and a mold can make the shock collars for less than $.01/ea. I don't think feradyne is doing too bad. I think they are making plenty of money based on what companies they now own. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

I just bought a pack of Rage on eBay for $22 shipped. Shop around, you can find them for less than $40 any day.

[chas0218]

On 10/17/2017 at 2:54 PM, dbHunterNY said:

 

I shoot Rage broadheads.  I'm also an engineer at my day job.  There's significant overhead costs of putting a warm American body in a seat to design, distribute, or do job XYZ to sell a product.  let's say a person makes $25 per hour.  That'd mean if FeraDyne made $15 off each head which they don't, they'd still have to sell 3,500 heads just support that one average but decent American job.  Manufacturing facility like that has trucker, warehouse workers, janitors, office clerks, executives steering the ship, to marketing folks.  if you did the math i'm sure it's half a million heads just to support their labor costs.  none of which overhead whomever is making the china knockoffs has. Not to mention they're making money off of someone else's intellectual property. This is from the horses mouth "Rage broadheads are assembled in the United States (Wisconsin) comprised of parts made in the USA and other countries. We do make most blades and ferrules here."  By all means buy the knockoffs if you want to save money, but enough with the BS assumptions.  There's an entire facility of Americans making these that support our time honored tradition of whacking and stacking deer while making memories.  In turn, your indirect thoughts are, "they should make as much as 12 year old Ping-Pong and his mom sweating away in China assembling knockoffs at something that's probably half the cost of wage they currently make."  Marketing still actually means American jobs and sponsorships aren't a big slice of overhead.  Most of the time a company says here's free swag and product for you to promote our stuff you believe works.

Things don't add up so if they are making them for 15x less the money but if "Ping-Pong and his mom" are getting paid half that how is it they are 15x as much. The last rage package I saw said made in China, maybe they aren't anymore who knows. They might be paying someone minimum wage to put 2 blades in and a screw but it is pretty doubtful. They "make most the blades here" give me a break most that's like saying most people that hunt only deer hunt. I know the nocturnals once changed from original brand to under the Rage name they were outsourced to China. Companies are there to make a profit and that is obvious no one will produce a product just to cover their costs why would they that is bad economics. Anyone have a Rage package? Where does it say it's made?

[Core]

I bought my first pack of rage chisel this month and paid $25 because they were on sale with some rebate thing at field/stream. I know they are normally a lot more.

Shock collars cost little to make, but if you've already engaged with a manufacturer and passed them over your design (CAD drawings don't make themselves) and paid for the molds and dumped all the time necessary to QA the process so that they are reliably producing a high quality product, you've eaten all that cost and need to recoup it. If the local guys in China receive an order from you for 1m items and they make them and then decide to just run a couple more shifts over the weekend for their own gear and ebay it, they've definitely stolen your IP and they didn't have to cover any of the mandatory up front costs. They are functioning more like a printing press company that after producing the 100,000 books you ordered decides to just print a few more and then sell them directly themselves. Meanwhile, you're still on your book tour promoting your book while the printing press guys just sell it direct themselves, not giving you a nickel.

[Core]

3 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Things don't add up so if they are making them for 15x less the money but if "Ping-Pong and his mom" are getting paid half that how is it they are 15x as much. The last rage package I saw said made in China, maybe they aren't anymore who knows. They might be paying someone minimum wage to put 2 blades in and a screw but it is pretty doubtful. They "make most the blades here" give me a break most that's like saying most people that hunt only deer hunt. I know the nocturnals once changed from original brand to under the Rage name they were outsourced to China. Companies are there to make a profit and that is obvious no one will produce a product just to cover their costs why would they that is bad economics. Anyone have a Rage package? Where does it say it's made?

Forget where Rage actually has them made. Are there any prominent China designed & engineered broadheads on the market? Actual manufacturing cost is a small percentage of total cost of a legitimate rage broadead after including all costs that went into the product over its expected life. These things do not design themselves.

[WNYBuckHunter]

6 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Anyone have a Rage package? Where does it say it's made?

I just got a pack in the mail last night. Ill look when I get home.

[WNYBuckHunter]

You guys might not be able to get the knock off Rage broadheads much longer

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/feradyne-wins-sweeping-ban-imports-rage-broadhead-knock-offs

Everything Ive read says Rage makes their broadheads in Wisconson.

[chas0218]

48 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I just got a pack in the mail last night. Ill look when I get home.

I'm just curious because the last time I saw them it said made in china. If they are made in the US why not market it that way and pull in more customers?

[chas0218]

41 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You guys might not be able to get the knock off Rage broadheads much longer

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/feradyne-wins-sweeping-ban-imports-rage-broadhead-knock-offs

Everything Ive read says Rage makes their broadheads in Wisconson.

Yeah I saw that the other day.

[chrisw]

They'll just stop putting the name "Rage" anywhere on or in the package. I'm sure the people that would be detecting this have no knowledge of what a trademarked rage is let alone care. But just in case I'm ordering a bunch...

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[OtiscoPaul]

2 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I shoot 63 lbs and have @ 450-460 gr arrows and have punched a Rage all the way through a 3.5 year old buck at 40 yards. He dropped 40 yards later. The broadhead went through multiple ribs with no issues and a blind kid could have followed the blood trail. I also know a few guys that use them shooting 50 lbs with similar weight arrows and have no problems with pass throughs. Im not saying theres anything wrong with fixed blades, but saying you need to shoot a 70lb bow and 500 gr telephone poles for mechanicals is not accurate at all.

I've had the exact same experience with arrows under 400 and 64lb DW on nearly 2 dozen deer.

BUT...I and many others have shared anecdotal accounts of hard recovered and un-recovered animals only to be found later as evidence of good shot selection and terrible penetration.

I am not saying you will ever lose a deer to this problem but if/when you do you will probably change your mind.

Edit:  I took the word unethical out of my original post because it was not what I meant or intended.

 I think 450 and your DW is plenty fur most good shot selection.  I tell people 500 because that seems to be a good threshold for bone pass throughs.

Also on my first few archery harvests I used montec and on good shots the deer never knew they were hit, same with these stricklands.  In my experience mechanicals loudly "Pop" open deer abs they always take off running.

Edited October 19, 2017 by OtiscoPaul

[WNY Bowhunter]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You guys might not be able to get the knock off Rage broadheads much longer

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/feradyne-wins-sweeping-ban-imports-rage-broadhead-knock-offs

Everything Ive read says Rage makes their broadheads in Wisconson.

That news is 2-3 months old and hasn't stopped any one from getting them on archery talk.  I will be buying more after this season. The original dozen I bought in 2015 still has a perfect success rate...8 heads and 8 very dead deer over the past three seasons!!!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

17 minutes ago, OtiscoPaul said:

I've had the exact same experience with arrows under 400 and 64lb DW on nearly 2 dozen deer.

BUT...I and many others have shared anecdotal accounts of hard recovered and un-recovered animals only to be found later as evidence of good shot selection and terrible penetration.

I am not saying you will ever lose a deer to this problem but if/when you do you will probably change your mind.

Edit:  I took the word unethical out of my original post because it was not what I meant or intended.

 I think 450 and your DW is plenty fur most good shot selection.  I tell people 500 because that seems to be a good threshold for bone pass throughs.

Also on my first few archery harvests I used montec and on good shots the deer never knew they were hit, same with these stricklands.  In my experience mechanicals loudly "Pop" open deer abs they always take off running.

I am going to try the rages on the crossbow I just got. I had been shootign Montec G5's and love them  on my compound.  When i was shootign a Bowtech Black night 2 it was a fast bow especially after moving up from my Proline. My Proline with thunderheads, I always passed through a deer. I moved to the Black night and tried a fold back mechanical. probably a half dozen deer and NEVER passed through with those. I will never use a fold back mechanical again. I like hoe the rage deploys and will give it a shot on the crossbow but very happy with the Montec's on the compound bow

[chas0218]

11 minutes ago, OtiscoPaul said:

 In my experience mechanicals loudly "Pop" open deer abs they always take off running.

i get the pop with my little fixed blade. It really depends on whether the deer is inhaling or exhaling when shot. I have had it where they also make no noise I don't think the size of the hole makes a difference. I will say that with my fixed blade I haven't had penetration issues if I have them with the Rage knockoffs I'll just switch to the QAD Exodus like originally planned. I just bought these on a whim to try and if I like them fine if not I'm not out much money. 

[chas0218]

4 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

 I like hoe the rage deploys and will give it a shot on the crossbow but very happy with the Montec's on the compound bow

That was my reason for trying the Rage vs other fold back mechanicals. My F.I.L. last 2 deer because of hard quartering away shots and the fold back just bouncing off the deer. He switched to fixed and now shoots the Slicktricks. I don't like the slicktrick 4 blades, he likes the hole it leaves but I think my fixed 3 blades did a better job and got better penetration. 

[genesee_mohican]

I picked up a pak of Rage slipcam xbow 100gr at walmart last night. (all the talk on here and seeing the commercials must have pushed me over the edge)  They don't say made in china, or USA, has Superior WI on the package. The bar code is 8  53616  00301     I have no idea where they are made.

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, OtiscoPaul said:

I've had the exact same experience with arrows under 400 and 64lb DW on nearly 2 dozen deer.

BUT...I and many others have shared anecdotal accounts of hard recovered and un-recovered animals only to be found later as evidence of good shot selection and terrible penetration.

I am not saying you will ever lose a deer to this problem but if/when you do you will probably change your mind.

Edit:  I took the word unethical out of my original post because it was not what I meant or intended.

 I think 450 and your DW is plenty fur most good shot selection.  I tell people 500 because that seems to be a good threshold for bone pass throughs.

Also on my first few archery harvests I used montec and on good shots the deer never knew they were hit, same with these stricklands.  In my experience mechanicals loudly "Pop" open deer abs they always take off running.

Ive put Rage heads right through shoulder bones before at around the 20 yard mark. The only mechanical I can say that Ive ever lost a deer to would be an old Rocket Sidewinder, and that was back when I shot 70lbs but had slightly lighter arrows, IIRC they were in the 400 gr range. The penetration of those heads was terrible. Was it my arrow weight, or the way that the broadheads opened? Im not really sure, but I will say that on the 2 deer I shot with them, neither was a pass through. One I recovered, as it was a dead on heart shot, the second was a double lung that offered no blood trail. I found the deer about 2 weeks later 500 yards from the stand in a corn field, and was able to see where it was hit. Arrow was still in the deer. That experience prompted me to move over to fixed blades, and I used Crimson Talon XTs, which I never lost a deer with. I stopped using them as the blades became tough to find locally. I then went to Rage, and never lost a deer, but hated the rubber bands. Back to fixed I went, and I went with Montecs. I liked them but moved back to Rage after they changed to the shock collars. I still havent lost a deer to a Rage, and have yet to not get a pass through with one.

In my opinion there is a big difference between a forward and rear deploying mechanical. I also think there is a big difference between the styles of tips on mechanicals. I prefer the bladed tip over a chisel tip. I havent tried the Hypodermic style and honestly probably wont bother. No need to fix whats not broken.

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, WNY Bowhunter said:

That news is 2-3 months old and hasn't stopped any one from getting them on archery talk.  I will be buying more after this season. The original dozen I bought in 2015 still has a perfect success rate...8 heads and 8 very dead deer over the past three seasons!!!

Not yet. Time will tell.

[LET EM GROW]

Chaos, you'll love those heads. They are built well. When my 5 "Real" Rage hypos need replacing, I will replace with these "Chinadermics" as WNY calls them lol. Have shot rage for a decade now, nothing but good stuff to say about them.

[Robhuntandfish]

My belief always was to stick with fixed blades if shooting lower poundage for the penetration and mechanicals if higher for the flight and larger opening.  I am one that just isnt that big on the Rages.  The quartering shots on those with tests arent all that great and have a lot of deflection but what bothers me the most about them is the damn collars.  Ive been sitting in the stand and watch them come open from grazing brush on the way in. Check out scoutlook 2017 broadhead reviews on utube.  Love the grim reapers!  and my second choice would be fixed muzzys. 

If you shoot a deer broadside it doesnt matter if you have a spork on the end of your arrow but when they jump the string or quartering away is when you want the right gear.  Grim reapers excel as a mechanical quartering away! 

[Core]

7 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I am going to try the rages on the crossbow I just got. I had been shootign Montec G5's and love them  on my compound.  When i was shootign a Bowtech Black night 2 it was a fast bow especially after moving up from my Proline. My Proline with thunderheads, I always passed through a deer. I moved to the Black night and tried a fold back mechanical. probably a half dozen deer and NEVER passed through with those. I will never use a fold back mechanical again. I like hoe the rage deploys and will give it a shot on the crossbow but very happy with the Montec's on the compound bow

I won't, either. Truthfully I can't seem to get good penetration with rage, either, but that's a topic for another thread and I won't hijack this one (and yes, I will use Rage again in the future because for one thing they have a very large entry hole). I don't like front-open and will not use them again. You can actually see in my avatar exactly how they open up on a target. Slowly! Look how deep the tip as the blades open. They make limited entry holes. I have no idea how much energy is used opening them (my guess in general is probably not a ton), but certainly if you hit a bone early on and all those three (unsharpened) prongs are now pushing back against the rib you will not be penetrating jack squat. They're acting as three blunt brakes trying to get through bone. Forget it. I got two deer last sunday with rage but will be trying out montecs as well next.

[Adkhunter1590]

Used rage since the beginning with no problems. The newer ones are much better than the originals. I've always shot 70lb bows though, so I'm not really worried about penetration. I've sent rages through rib cages with pass throughs multiple times. I just like that they fly so well compared to my field points. Easy to buy screw on and hunt.

[Hock3y24]

stay away from the shoulder blade with those and you'll be happy