how would you fix the Dacks for deer hunting...and does it need fixing?

[NFA-ADK]

The main reason deer thrive in the US was due to us clear cutting when we expanded our domain.  This included logging, clear cut,  and controlled burns.  Simply put deer survive now but would thrive if we cleared some land.   High canopy is bad for all animals that live on the ground.  

I love hunting deep woods but when you are the only person to see deer every year and the only person out of 8 plus hunters to even see a buck you know something is OFF with the woods.  The only thing I see thriving in the ADK are birds.  Clearing land has a good effect on many animals and it would benefit them and the harsh winters they face every year.  

They survive in the ADK now but would thrive if we helped out with clearing some land.  

Its a shame when I see more animals in one day on Long Island than a full week in the ADK.  But we have a excellent mix of open woods, good soil, farms and manicured yards to keep them feed well and healthy.   Many of the small towns in the ADK are  great examples of how well deer thrive on OUR open lands, I have never seen more deer in the ADK than in areas around these towns.   I saw almost 30 deer in one day in town then the next few days in deep woods provided no sightings.  

We can blame bad hunters or inexperience on some but when you talk to a few other groups of guys who never see anything it gives the big picture of how desolate the ADK forest can be.  Do they hike miles like some, probably not but if the woods where managed better for animals vs peoples impression of what forest should be it would benefit us all.  

30 years of hunting the ADK and I have seen about 40 bucks of which 10 or so where bigger than 6 pts and at least 2 years old (Shooters).   Luck enough to get 3 but my other hunting friends have only seen 2 bucks in that time, one spike that was passed and one 4 pt taken last year.  It would be nice if other hunters that do not have the insight knowledge or experience to see a deer get some sort of chance. 

The benefit to the local towns would be an added factor, no hunter wants to go every year and see nothing.  Many simply quite hunting these areas yet if they had some success they would come back every year.  That would provide a good boost to many towns as hunters pay for food, lodging, gear and supplies. 

[Buckmaster7600]

The main reason deer thrive in the US was due to us clear cutting when we expanded our domain.  This included logging, clear cut,  and controlled burns.  Simply put deer survive now but would thrive if we cleared some land.   High canopy is bad for all animals that live on the ground.  
I love hunting deep woods but when you are the only person to see deer every year and the only person out of 8 plus hunters to even see a buck you know something is OFF with the woods.  The only thing I see thriving in the ADK are birds.  Clearing land has a good effect on many animals and it would benefit them and the harsh winters they face every year.  
They survive in the ADK now but would thrive if we helped out with clearing some land.  
Its a shame when I see more animals in one day on Long Island than a full week in the ADK.  But we have a excellent mix of open woods, good soil, farms and manicured yards to keep them feed well and healthy.   Many of the small towns in the ADK are  great examples of how well deer thrive on OUR open lands, I have never seen more deer in the ADK than in areas around these towns.   I saw almost 30 deer in one day in town then the next few days in deep woods provided no sightings.  
We can blame bad hunters or inexperience on some but when you talk to a few other groups of guys who never see anything it gives the big picture of how desolate the ADK forest can be.  Do they hike miles like some, probably not but if the woods where managed better for animals vs peoples impression of what forest should be it would benefit us all.  
30 years of hunting the ADK and I have seen about 40 bucks of which 10 or so where bigger than 6 pts and at least 2 years old (Shooters).   Luck enough to get 3 but my other hunting friends have only seen 2 bucks in that time, one spike that was passed and one 4 pt taken last year.  It would be nice if other hunters that do not have the insight knowledge or experience to see a deer get some sort of chance. 
The benefit to the local towns would be an added factor, no hunter wants to go every year and see nothing.  Many simply quite hunting these areas yet if they had some success they would come back every year.  That would provide a good boost to many towns as hunters pay for food, lodging, gear and supplies. 

I understand your point but I disagree, hunting isn't something where everyone should get a trophy. Big woods hunting isn't little league baseball.

In my opinion the biggest decline with ADK hunting is the tree stand and food plot generation that has taken over hunting these days. Sitting is not an effective way of consistently killing bucks in the big woods, Todd Mead is one of the few hunters that I know of that consistently kill them while sitting but he puts in hundreds of miles on his feet in the off season to find the areas in the offseason.


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[Larry]

one word LOGGING

[G-Man]

Forever wild areas.. Let them burn.. More effective than logging and put the nutrients back into the ground.  Hundreds of fire towers manned for generations destroyed what the Adirondacks should be.. We are taught for is bad.. For wildlife. Fire is the best thing like the mythical phoenix the best arise from the ash.. 

That being said.. You need to track to kill a deer in big woods consistently. Large beaver ponds that are drained is next best.. Woodsmanship is number 1 thing needed .. Everything else is secondary. 

[Buckmaster7600]

even the bear take from the adirondacks has now been surpassed by the southern tier. I know guys that just gave up going there although they love the experience its tough to go a week and never see a deer. Or to go partridge hunting and see two in a weekend.  
The dacks could be so much more for hunters.  I would love to see the snowshoe hares come back - what a great trip that would be after deer season.  

There are factors to the bear take other than bear numbers. The 10's of thousands of acres that were leased land that are now conservancy land where people could ride their quads now they can't. Most everyone I know isn't willing to drag or quarter and carry out a bear any real distance.


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[Doewhacker]

Ny would need to copy what Maine does, like has been said, it ain’t gonna happen. 

Logging roads open access but it doesn’t make it any easier to get a deer. Also I don’t recall seeing too many tops left in my Maine travels. 

[IRL]

If you are interested in forest management and improving wildlife habitat, then check out the NY Forest Owners Association and watch the many Webinars that are posted on-line by Cornell, SU, Penn State, U Vermont etc.  Much of the forest in NY is 80-100 yrs old which is generally considered the least productive stage for wildlife.  Early successional and old growth forest are the most productive stages of a forest for wildlife.  

Forest management to improve wildlife habitat is what most hunters would like to see.  Logging is one of the many tools to accomplish that goal and under a management plan involves more cutting to improve diversity and quality of the forest than extract commercial timber. However, the sale of commercial timber is usually needed to fund the management work.  

The DEC writes Unit Management Plans (UMPs) for state lands.  They are posted online and there is always a public comment period when a plan is drafted.

No I do not work for the DEC but I do own and manage forested land in NY, and I hunt the ADK, Allegany State Park and the ANF in PA.

[zoschag08]

Logging would be both a boon for business as well as help the deer make a comeback. Elk should be introduced as well.  The state needs to hire by contract only a logging company by bid. First the DEC should mark the trees to be cut and only those trees cut and logged off and out. The entire tree should be pulled out so that firwood could be cut as well and sold. Did I say Elk should be introduced... like PA has had for nearly 100 years. 

Elk are mainly grazers, they wouldn't do well in the big woods up there. The game commission has had to put in tons of food plots to help the elk herd thrive.

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[Hunter007]

I think because of the large area you are dealing with unless you track stalk deer I don't think anything you do to the land will make much of a noticeable difference. 

[Padre86]

On 11/24/2017 at 8:53 AM, Buckmaster7600 said:

There are 2 MILLION acres of public land in the Adirondacks. As someone who has been hunting in the Adirondacks since I was a little kid I will say that those that hunt the dacks and don't see deer either suck at hunting or aren't willing to find the right areas. Bucks in the dacks don't come easy they must be earned. This year I have only had 6 days to hunt the adk's and saw 7 different bucks. It is common for me to leave my camp at 2am and drive 50-100 miles to find the right conditions, those of us that consistently kill mature bucks in the ADK's do it by being mobile and finding deer not walking up the same hill behind camp and sitting.

In October and November It's common for me to put 8-12 miles a day on the gps and a few hrs in the truck to find the deer I'm going to hunt in late November. This is the first year in the last 5 that I won't kill a mature buck in the dacks.


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You're absolutely right, there is a lot of public (mostly state) land up there in the ADK's, and in the Northern Zone in general.  The deer density is definitely lower up there, but the flip side of that coin is that there is more land for the hunters to spread out on up there relative to the more crowded areas of Western NY and outside of the big cities.  

However, land access in the ADK's is still a bit of an issue.  There are a lot of old, or still active logging roads, that would allow hunters better access into certain areas of the Park.  However, a lot of those roads are closed off due to state regulations or allow only for restricted access (leased hunters and timber companies).  A lot of public land hunters are forced to access the state land via heavily crowded trailheads located along the main paved corridors.  Also, their ability to get into interior spots and get out with packed meat is somewhat limited.  I'm all for doing it the old-school way and packing stuff out by backpack, but realistically speaking, there is a limit to how far a solo hunter can pack out his gear and meat from a deep wilderness spot, especially in mountainous and heavily vegetated terrain.

The guys and gals who are able to secure leased hunting lands on private timber lands usually have access to prime land and easier logistics.  The guy who is parking at a trailhead along Rte 28 and then hoofing all his gear in and trying to find a deer and get it out, has a much tougher time.  I think the state should find ways to open up a few more logging roads on state land to allow better interior access (they already do this with  seasonal roads in certain areas, but those roads are few and far between) and they should also offer tax incentives to the remaining timber companies and private land owners to allow more public access.  There are whole swaths of interior that have private road access, but are only accessible to the general public by long, burdensome hikes and paddles in.  I do see the adventure of backpack hunting, and I'm certainly not advocating we have ATV and 4x4 trails criss-crossing all the wilderness.  But I think the APA could find a better compromise in allowing for more hunter/angler access into the interior parts of the Park.

Also, some common sense logging practices could help the situation a little.  I appreciate the historical context of "forever wild" but in practice, leaving deadfall sitting in place creates fire hazards.  As well, there are certain invasive species of tress that need managing.  Modern forestry practices have their place, even in an area like the ADK's.  Private land owners are able and willing to employ such techniques up there, but the state, burdened by an aged constitution, is limited on what it can do.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Padre86

[Padre86]

On 11/24/2017 at 10:03 AM, Buckmaster7600 said:

I understand your point but I disagree, hunting isn't something where everyone should get a trophy. Big woods hunting isn't little league baseball.

In my opinion the biggest decline with ADK hunting is the tree stand and food plot generation that has taken over hunting these days. Sitting is not an effective way of consistently killing bucks in the big woods, Todd Mead is one of the few hunters that I know of that consistently kill them while sitting but he puts in hundreds of miles on his feet in the off season to find the areas in the offseason.


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Maybe I'm not understanding your point here, but sitting still is the only way to kill just about anything up in the ADK's.  Short of tracking an animal in the snow, which is heavily dependent on the weather conditions, moving around in the woods usually yields poor results as the animals can hear, smell and sometimes see you well before you're in a position to get a shot.

I agree there is a lot of footwork in the preparation for a hunt (scouting, setting up cameras, moving gear in and out).  But once the season starts, it's been my experience that moving around looking for an animal is a futile exercise in the big woods of the northeast (again excluding the snow tracking scenario).  

Edited November 28, 2017 by Padre86

[wny9p]

I'm in agreement with most of the solutions offered here.  My only addition would be to set up State government so that NYC politicians have no influence on how the ADK is managed.   Most of the ideas provided by city environmentalists are uniformed and emotional.

[nyantler]

Logging would be a big help, but I would hate to see the big woods overrun by every hunyak in the state. They would need a new special government force just to help find all the lost wannabees.

[IRL]

Maybe I'm not understanding your point here, but sitting still is the only way to kill just about anything up in the ADK's.  Short of tracking an animal in the snow, which is heavily dependent on the weather conditions, moving around in the woods usually yields poor results as the animals can hear, smell and sometimes see you well before you're in a position to get a shot.
I agree there is a lot of footwork in the preparation for a hunt (scouting, setting up cameras, moving gear in and out).  But once the season starts, it's been my experience that moving around looking for an animal is a futile exercise in the big woods of the northeast (again excluding the snow tracking scenario).  

No offense but it sounds like you have never hunted north of Syracuse.


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[Buckmaster7600]

Maybe I'm not understanding your point here, but sitting still is the only way to kill just about anything up in the ADK's.  Short of tracking an animal in the snow, which is heavily dependent on the weather conditions, moving around in the woods usually yields poor results as the animals can hear, smell and sometimes see you well before you're in a position to get a shot.
I agree there is a lot of footwork in the preparation for a hunt (scouting, setting up cameras, moving gear in and out).  But once the season starts, it's been my experience that moving around looking for an animal is a futile exercise in the big woods of the northeast (again excluding the snow tracking scenario).  

If it's working stick with it, I run 0 cameras and do 0 pre season scouting and kill everyone of my while I'm moving.


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[ncountry]

One of my favorite things to do on a rainy weekend day  is walk all day . Over the hills and through the woods. I've killed a few doing this. But mostly I learn a lot of new terrain and often see more deer that day then a weeks worth of sits in the big woods. More than once I've ended up at the rd still 5 miles from my truck though..lol.. 3

[DirtTime]

The big issue people forget about the ADK's is that there's a lot less AG areas then in the SZ.

The ADK park is huge, and there is plenty of public access, try getting away from the parking areas and kiosks. I haven't hunted the whole area, but Benson is a great area if you put the time in.

 

[Padre86]

18 hours ago, Yellow Barn said:

 

No offense but it sounds like you have never hunted north of Syracuse.


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I hunt in the ADK's quite frequently, central region (Blue Ridge Wilderness, Moose River Plains Wild Forest, Blue Mountain Wild Forest).  There are a lot of areas with deadfall and thick undergrowth.  Moving on a trail or on fresh snow can allow you to stay undetected.  Moving off trail on snow-free ground is usually not that productive.  I've seen deer while on the move up there, but it was more due to chance than anything else.

18 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

If it's working stick with it, I run 0 cameras and do 0 pre season scouting and kill everyone of my while I'm moving.


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What approximate areas are you hunting in the ADK's?

Edited November 29, 2017 by Padre86

[Padre86]

20 hours ago, nyantler said:

Logging would be a big help, but I would hate to see the big woods overrun by every hunyak in the state. They would need a new special government force just to help find all the lost wannabees.

 

The DEC is already dealing with that problem in the High Peaks and certain other areas with heavy traffic.  Lots of visitors going into the woods unprepared = more Ranger call out's and rescues.

There are a few remote areas that can be accessed by road (Moose River Plains WF is one example).  I normally don't see too much in the way of big crowds (during any of the seasons).  I suspect a lot of people just don't know about those types of dirt roads; as well, there are no big scenic mountain hikes with the same kind of appeal as what exists in the High Peaks.  I think there is a smart and eco-friendly way to open up a few more of those old logging roads without compromising the ADK's rustic nature.

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, Padre86 said:

  I've seen deer while on the move up there, but it was more due to chance than anything else.

 

that's kinda the whole point. you move and see them by chance. lol

[Padre86]

56 minutes ago, Belo said:

that's kinda the whole point. you move and see them by chance. lol

Again, I'm curious to know what areas you and Buckmaster are hunting in the ADK's.  In most of the areas I hunt, still hunting just isn't that practical, especially if there is no snow on the ground.  Blowdown, dead leaves and sticks, thick undergrowth...you'll usually create quite a racket if you try moving around too much.

[Buckmaster7600]

What approximate areas are you hunting in the ADK's?

From lake George to tupper lake to town of inlet. I have a camp in speculator and belong to a camp in blue mtn lake that I use as base camps.

I have hunted the Adirondacks for about 16 yrs and I have probably spent a total of 1 hr sitting and that includes taking dumps. Killed 11 bucks up there with 9 being 3+yrs old and I missed 3 seasons while deployed over seas.

 

Trying to find killable deer is the hardest part of hunting big woods. There are deer in spots that are nearly impossible to kill unless there is snow so I don't waste my time in those areas. There is a lot of land, doesn't make sense to waste time in unproductive areas.

 

 

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[nyantler]

5 hours ago, Padre86 said:

 

The DEC is already dealing with that problem in the High Peaks and certain other areas with heavy traffic.  Lots of visitors going into the woods unprepared = more Ranger call out's and rescues.

There are a few remote areas that can be accessed by road (Moose River Plains WF is one example).  I normally don't see too much in the way of big crowds (during any of the seasons).  I suspect a lot of people just don't know about those types of dirt roads; as well, there are no big scenic mountain hikes with the same kind of appeal as what exists in the High Peaks.  I think there is a smart and eco-friendly way to open up a few more of those old logging roads without compromising the ADK's rustic nature.

Unfortunately many hunters would be lost just 100 yards off the road. The big woods is definitely not for everyone. I personally would not like to see the Adirondack park turn into what the other state lands have turned into for hunting. Some logging would be nice to open the canopy up and allow for better food source and better browse for all animals. I like the lower deer density though.

[Hunter007]

I Just wonder what the wildlife density was like there before human hunting or before firearms .

1000 10,000  years ago .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IRL]

I Just wonder what the wildlife density was like there before human hunting or before firearms .
1000 10,000  years ago .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

10,000 yrs ago was a short time after the last glacial event so wildlife density was very low as plants were just getting re-established. By human hunting I assume you mean white people hunting as humans have inhabited this region, and hunted wildlife, for thousands of years.


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