Deer management draft proposal recently released by the DEC.

[Doc]

I dont really understand the argument against guns in the woods for the early ml season. You guys do realize we already have turkey, waterfowl and small game hunters out there with us during bow season now, right? The ml hhnters wont be flinging 5 in a row like some of the shotgunners and rifle guys do.

You are absolutely correct, and don't think for a minute that that gun disturbance doesn't put deer on an evasive pattern if you happen to be trying to hunt in an area where a gang of small-game hunters set up. And the more gunners you have in the woods, regardless of what they are after, the more likely that is to happen. Months of patterning and scouting can be trashed just by the sound of nearby gunfire. And all that is without the gunners actually heading for deer habitat in particular. Now add to that a group of gun hunters who are going out of their way to invade deer bedding and feeding areas specifically, and pretty soon you have something similar to regular gun season.

A lot of this perception is a result of where a bowhunter is hunting. If you have your own private and posted land or exclusive permission to bowhunt a certain area, or maybe just a honey-hole that most gunners have not found yet, you may not be too concerned about additional gun-hunting. Probably under those conditions, you may not even notice the difference. And if you do, you have the control of the situation to clear the woods out anytime you become bothered by all the commotion. However those of us who hunt state land or open private land see an entirely different picture. Last year on three different occasions, I had an afternoon hunt completely wrecked by a pair of squirrel hunters who sat not far from my stand and popped away at squirrels about every 15 minutes until it was time to quit hunting. Absolutely they had a perfect right to be there. It was just my bad luck. I had been zeroing in on a pretty impressive buck and he either went nocturnal or shifted his area for the remainder of the season because of that activity. At any rate whatever I knew about him was trashed. That doesn't happen all that often because there isn't that many small game hunters these days. But depending on how popular these early gun seasons become, I can see that scenario beginning to play out more often than anyone would like to think possible.

We know from regular gun season that gunfire and people invading specific deer habitat put deer into a completely different survival mode. Anyone with more than a few years of bow and gun deer hunting under their belt has seen that happen. The closer a bow season comes to duplicating those carnival conditions, the more bowhunting becomes an activity of blind luck rather than a hunt that uses scouting, patterning, and hunting skill.

How popular will this early muzzleloader season become? .... well you need a crystal ball to make a guess at that one, but if you listen to all the hype about the necessity of an early season, you have to believe that either it is being way over-sold, or that there will be a significant impact. 

[G-Man]

Doc, the muzzeloader season is as needed?..and if i read all these posts on various topics..most people feel there aren't enought deer so no muzzloader season then? I think you are correct in gun discharge effects movement but so does scouting,hanging stands, starting fires and any other intrusion into the woods...  I just think its a positive to extend bow and create new opportunity for more hunting. And as i said if they adopt any or all of these proposals i will be happy for the increased time i'll have afield.

[growalot]

You guys must be in some very active hunter areas...for there is very little small game hunting going on around us...and yep every single person that gun and or bow hunts here....muzzle load hunts as well...and all those guys that spend so much time whining bow hunters get all the big bucks before us gunners will so be out in the woods...now granted it is one shot..... but say you have that guy in camo and the bow guy in camo...it only takes one shot...If your going to bring in new regulations that put more ppl out in the woods ...with different hunting styles and weapons....Coming off a year of accidental shootings...then be smart enough to add some safety measures...mandatory orange for all gun hunters....common sense

[Doc]

Doc, the muzzeloader season is as needed?..and if i read all these posts on various topics..most people feel there aren't enought deer so no muzzloader season then? I think you are correct in gun discharge effects movement but so does scouting,hanging stands, starting fires and any other intrusion into the woods...  I just think its a positive to extend bow and create new opportunity for more hunting. And as i said if they adopt any or all of these proposals i will be happy for the increased time i'll have afield.

Lol .... that's all of little comfort to me. I am in WMU 8N and if you believe the DEC data I am in an area that has one of the highest deer densities in the state. And as someone pointed out earlier ..... If My area is one of the few that conducts an "as needed" early muzzleloader season, 8N likely will become a super-magnet for muzzleloader hunters in the surrounding WMUs. So the predicted "light" effect of muzzleloaders in bow season will actually be kind of an out-of-scale addition of gun activity.

So again, I say that I have no crystal ball that can predict the impact of an early muzzleloading season, but logic and intuition gives me a bit of a negative feeling about this part of the proposal. There's no way that I can support that sort of thing.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You guys must be in some very active hunter areas...for there is very little small game hunting going on around us...and yep every single person that gun and or bow hunts here....muzzle load hunts as well...and all those guys that spend so much time whining bow hunters get all the big bucks before us gunners will so be out in the woods...now granted it is one shot..... but say you have that guy in camo and the bow guy in camo...it only takes one shot...If your going to bring in new regulations that put more ppl out in the woods ...with different hunting styles and weapons....Coming off a year of accidental shootings...then be smart enough to add some safety measures...mandatory orange for all gun hunters....common sense

Just a note....the early ML they are proposing is for Doe only as presented

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Mabe it is just me, but when I hunt the late archery or ML it seems like the deer settle back down very quickly. They get closer agin.....back feeding in fields before dark. If what you guys are saying about the impact I would think the guys up north would have a very hard time getting a buck with ML happening just before the regular gun season. Yes rifle shot farther than bows so you don't need to be as close....but if they have gone nocturnal or moved out of the area it doesn't matter how far they shoot.

[WNYBuckHunter]

So if they had the youth hunt on 8th thrught the 10th and muzzleloader on the 11th throught the 14th and left the opener on the 15th as it basically is now...you are good with that? I am blown away that they are proposing adding 2 weeks to bow and I am hearing bitching. They aren't taking anything away from what we have now and still not good enough ...huh?

Silly isnt it? Some people would complain if you laid a million dollars in their lap tax free.

[SteveB]

I see at least 10 times the mz hunters in the late season as I do small game hunters for the entire season. I know nobody who targets late season turkeys. Goose is done on open feilds and duck over bodies of water - neither very disruptive to deer. Mz is way more disruptive by both tactics and sheer numbers of hunters.

[Chevy]

Yeah I do alot of state land hunting which influences alot of my opinions. I am not rich like some of you who have their own food plots and can set up on bachelor groups at field edges on October 1st.  I already share the archery woods with other bowhunters, turkey hunters, and small game hunters. This is tough enough. Seems most of you on this site would like to add muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, and crossbows. Well, I say enough is enough. The gunners pretending to be bowhunters on this site call me greedy and selfish, but we already have a very very long gun season so there should be no reason to constantly try to find a way to take prime time away from archery season.     

[nyantler]

We also have a much longer archery season than gun season so I would say that the archery season is very very very very long and they are proposing 2 more weeks on top of that... not sure where the bitch is there.

[G-Man]

Prime time? I guess I've been waisting my vacation the 1st and second week of november... : don't really see much impact happening in nov ...from a few days in early oct..or even mid october....

[fasteddie]

I use to have to schedule my vacation around deer season . I'm retired . No Problemo !

[Doc]

We also have a much longer archery season than gun season so I would say that the archery season is very very very very long and they are proposing 2 more weeks on top of that... not sure where the bitch is there.

First of all, some of that "2 more weeks" makes up for some time that was taken away from us when they revised the seasons for Saturday openers. And second, there is no rule written anywhere that states that everytime something is given to bowhunters, something has to be done to screw up part of it. Bowhunters have been pushing for an October 1st opener for a long time. For come reason, the DEC (and apparently some other hunters) thinks that everything bowhunters achieve has to come with some kind of penalty.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yeah I do alot of state land hunting which influences alot of my opinions. I am not rich like some of you who have their own food plots and can set up on bachelor groups at field edges on October 1st.  I already share the archery woods with other bowhunters, turkey hunters, and small game hunters. This is tough enough. Seems most of you on this site would like to add muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, and crossbows. Well, I say enough is enough. The gunners pretending to be bowhunters on this site call me greedy and selfish, but we already have a very very long gun season so there should be no reason to constantly try to find a way to take prime time away from archery season.   

Chevy, like Ive already said more than once, Id rather not have the extra hunters out there, I just dont think it will be the end of the world if it goes through. I wouldnt call early October "prime time" either. Oh, and by the way, Im far from rich, hunt lots of state land and the closest thing I have to a food plot is a tiny plot at my fathers that I use to experiment with seeds. If you want private land to hunt, knock on doors like the rest of us do, its not that bad to be told no sometimes. You never know, you might luck out and gain access to a large tract. 

[Doc]

I already share the archery woods with other bowhunters, turkey hunters, and small game hunters. This is tough enough. Seems most of you on this site would like to add muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, and crossbows. Well, I say enough is enough.     

Sounds like a reasonable comment to me. Anybody got some new gadget or activity you want to use, stuff it in bow season. What the heck they are in the minority and one heck of an easy target. Fill it up!

You're absolutely correct ..... enough is enough!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I guess you guys are right. let's all contact DEC and Albany and tell them that we do not want them to start the bow season on October 1st because we have no intention of sharing the woods with any youth gun hunters or any of those dangerous hillbillie ML hunters.....Let's band together and get this done!! We will show them once and for all...

[G-Man]

For those of you dead set against the youth and muzzloader hunt in early oct..its simple don't hunt that week.. you still pick up the whole 1st week of october extra,  and then you can sit home a week. Then the 3rd sat you can have bow again! just like it is now! Why does it seem there is no pleasing some bowhunters? if you can't have the whole month of october to yourself its no good? Come on.. you get an extra whole week to yourself.. then a shared week.. then the remainder of the season to yourself!! What is the driving force behind your its only for us mentality?? The deer belong to the state! All Licence holders should have as much opportunity to get a little extra as bowhunters do!! All i can assume is your worried some one will get YOUR deer!! Get over it!! How about if they give the entire month of october and first 2 weeks to the gunhunters and then let bow have mid nov-end of december??  Just no pleasing some people..

[Chevy]

Gman you're delerious. Stop gripping your guns so hard!

[erussell]

Why not put early muzzleloader and a youth hunt the first week of gun. I for one would be all for an early oct 1st start to a bow season. Bucks are still in there bachelor groups then so it is much easier to kill off all the bucks before the gun hunters get in the woods. 

[fasteddie]

It's not a problem if you hunt private property . No one else will be hunting it .

[G-Man]

I'll be gripping my mathews bow and enjoying the first two weeks of october bowhunting...and loving that kids and people with muzzleloaders are enjoying their added opportunity as well ;D

[nyantler]

Sorry but I'm not seeing what is being taken away from bowhunters... It will still be the longest seasons of all the seasons... even though there are less bowhunters than gun hunters overall... you're right bowhunters have been pushing for an Oct. 1st start for a long time... they are alway pushing for something and probably won't be satisfied until they get it all... I do agree that there doesn't need to be any muzzleloader season in the southern zone during or before the regular bowhunting season.. if the DEC is actually looking to control population better... they should look at extending the gun season farther into December. I personally don't think they know what to do... because no matter what they propose... hunters will have a bitch... that's just the way it is

[Doc]

I guess it is a hard concept to explain to those who have never experienced trying to bowhunt over-pressured deer. When you have control over your hunting lands, or have someone else keeping the pressure limited for you, it's hard to imagine why others would be concerned about excessive gun activity that is happening elsewhere during or before you begin trying to use the conventional methods of scouting and patterning the deer you are trying to bowhunt. Frankly, I don't know any way of making it clearer. For me it has always been pretty obvious that you don't hold a gun season and then try to bowhunt. It has always been obvious to me that bowhunting is an activity of stealth because of it being a close-range style of hunting. Others apparently are in a position to take all that for granted. I don't think there really is any way to explain it to those that don't have to worry about hunting pressure.

[First-light]

I have read most of the posts here and there are some valid points. For me a hunter that travels a good distance to deer camp the only season I would be able to take advantage of would be the youth hunt. I would not be able to come up during the week so that weekend would be great for me to get my girls out to hunt. The early muzzleloader in my opinion would not hurt anything. The woods are so green that time of year I would think you would be hunting field edges, at least I would. The weather is warmer so those old coots that can't take the cold get a shot at using a bow or muzzleloader early season. I see that youth weekend as more than a hunting opportunity, the woods are just alive with color, the weather is usually real nice, hunt in the morning and evening and fly fish mid-day! What a better way to enjoy the outdoors with our kids!

[Chevy]

I thought we moved opening day to Saturday in 2005 for the kids?

So why not make that weekend the "special season" but frankly I don't see the need now that the age limit has been lowered and opening day is a saturday.  That should be enough for full youth participation.

I'm not against the kids. I have kids. I'm just against guns before or during archery season which should be 10/1 until 11/19.