Antler Restriction Results

[MPHunter]

3 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

i'm mostly in WMU 4C that's traditionally been "if it's brown it's down". we're a lot of ag ground but can't compare to western NY and southern tier when it comes to antlers. handful of years we alone on about 300 acres tried 3 points on a side. nobody else around us really did despite we told them what we were doing and someone on us every so often would break that rule.  we definitely saw more 2.5+ yr old bucks but we'd still never see anything 3.5 yrs old with just us doing it. a couple neighbors then somewhat followed 3 points to a side and that helped even more. now we'd have a 3.5+ yr old each year taken on any given property. results still weren't really there. i mean you were guaranteed an opportunity at a respectable rack buck but not filling the wall with shoulder mounts.

fast foward to last handful of years. we formed multiple QDM co-ops in the area with voluntary ARs more than what would be implemented by regulation or law. each with their own set of voluntary ARs based on their own standards for age structure though. ours has min 3 pts on each side and a 15" outside spread (just within ear tip to tip). it protects all yearlings and many 2.5 yr olds. after that they aren't so ignorant and hunting is hunting. new hunters youth or otherwise can shoot whatever. we've gotten bucks 4.5+ yrs old. every year multiple people mount their best buck to date.  rutting activity is insane compared to trickle of activity it was before. some years still better than others. co-ops have boomed around here. about 20,000 acres here in northern rensselaer county now and another 20,000 acres across the boarder in washington county.  that's a lot of hunters that very in skill level and hunting interest. ARs flatten the learning curve versus trying to age a deer and everyone can count pts. still can equate to building an age structure though.

I also hunt 4C (Center Brunswick). We have 125 acres for three hunters. We have a large corn field that borders one side that no one is allowed to hunt. About 250 acres of green fields and woods borders the other side. The two guys that hunt that property only bow hunt and are trophy hunters. We have a 6 point or better policy on our land for about the last ten years. The 375 acres that are "managed" is small compared to the huntable land surrounding us but I can say that we not only see more 6 point and larger bucks but smaller 4 point and spike bucks as well. 

[Rattler]

Comparing relatively small parcels of managed private land, especially when surrounded by other private land, where deer live out their entire lives without any threat from the general hunting population, to entire sections of the state that are totally diverse in ownership, hunter numbers and legal compliance with the rules, is very much apples to oranges. 

[dbHunterNY]

2 minutes ago, Rattler said:

Comparing relatively small parcels of managed private land, especially when surrounded by other private land, where deer live out their entire lives without any threat from the general hunting population, to entire sections of the state that are totally diverse in ownership, hunter numbers and legal compliance with the rules, is very much apples to oranges. 

the general hunting population in ny is hunting private land whether they own it, lease it, or simply have permission.  the idea of traditional QDM co-ops originates more from the south, even on public land. up here in the northern portion of the country it's coming on strong because properties are only getting smaller and harder to afford to own.  Mississippi state for example has public land managed with unmanned checkstations and antler restrictions very similar to what we're doing with results just fine.
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/another-possible-state-record-buck-taken-public-land-mississippi/?fbclid=IwAR0sFZkqiPqt4Y7yvyl8A1bs3rfcQBD95ggV2e29P4gQoS7AGIkTh0YU2tk

[rjrdomer]

A number of interesting points have come up here.  Short answer is, I am mixed. I don't know if the ARs are working. Anecdotally, I'm seeing more larger deer on camera and in the field.  Still seeing more does than bucks, for sure. I've also heard others in the area say they've been seeing more larger deer than prior years.  This is WMU 4R/4G/Schoharie/Delaware/Greene Counties. It's tough to say if this is a direct result of ARs or if it is something related to better habitat, better hunter education, better hunting through technology (we didn't have trail cameras years ago).  

Are we seeing more deer than 30-40 years ago?  For sure.  That's clear. Versus 10 years ago...I'd say maybe. It's one of those things that is difficult to really test for since there are so many variables. Do the ARs stop people from shooting small bucks? Maybe...it should....but there are unscrupulous people out there who don't follow the rules.  Especially in WMUs that border non-AR units, but I understand you have to draw the line somewhere.  But what the ARs did do, is  encouraged some hunters to go elsewhere.  Why make the day trip to an AR area if you can go to another WMU?  So maybe the combination of fewer hunters in AR areas coupled with the actual restrictions are increasing big buck numbers.  Was the state's intention to keep the city folk from day tripping to the catskills, hopping out of the truck, walking through the woods, and shooting a spike and going away?  Yeah maybe.  It's tough to say.   NYS has never been a hunter friendly state, so it's quite possible they just want fewer people in the woods.

I think the ARs by themselves would work well if they also increased the number of doe tags in a unit. Are numbers really that low that they don't want to issue doe tags?  My ratio of does to bucks is probably 10:1.  Science behind ARs is mixed....but it has been proven, kill a few more does and you'll likely see more bucks.  Granted, there has to be a balance so you don't wipe out the population.  Also, if someone cheats the AR rule, it defeats the whole purpose.  That 4 pointer on your property could be a 6 or 8 next year unless someone cheats and shoots it.  

Texas has an interesting view on ARs that have seemed to work.  I understand this is Texas and a very different environment than NY.  But in TX, you are allowed to shoot a spike or a deer with a wide spread (the measurement escapes me).  Thought being, keep the spikes from reproducing...they've proven, at least in Texas that spikes pass on inferior antler genes to the next generation.  And then the medium deer get to grow.  

So there's probably more the state could do if they really wanted to help things.  ARs likely work, but like I said, I'm sort of mixed because they can probably pull more levers with doe tags and other things.  I'd also allow predator (coyote) hunting during spring turkey season and all deer seasons if taken incidental to turkey and deer hunting.  

Edited October 30, 2018 by rjrdomer

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You have to remember with AR you will get an older age structure which will in turn make a tougher animal to hunt and kill. Like it or not many do not have the land,skill or want to be able to go out and find and kill an older whitetail. Some of the best hunting ever for mature bucks on Letchworth was after a couple years of mandatory Ar. They say they found more dead small bucks but they still find them now. Most all are during bow season and it's crazy the number of wounded bucks killed during gun with arrows broke off inside them.


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[Canis Latrans]

32 minutes ago, rjrdomer said:

A number of interesting points have come up here...

rjrdomer and everybody else please vote and post in the poll thread. Let this topic die and take it over there, I wish I could close this thread.

 

PLEASE CLICK THIS LINK, VOTE AND POST IN THAT THREAD INSTEAD.
 

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Canis Latrans

[G-Man]

4 hours ago, hconn2018 said:

If one was allowed to bait in NY do you think we would see more of the mature bucks showing up on cameras which would maybe prove that antler restrictions do work?

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as bucks get older they get smarter. thevidea of passing up little bucks and having big ones behind every tree is main reason for pushing ars..  fact is many many people are poor hunters or have limited time so taking a mature animal cones down to luck only.. the tv host and shows dont show the 50 or sonday they sat and never saw anything worth shooting or anything at all.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I just don't get the  patting of ones self on the back for passing up on a spike or 4 point, then be perfectly satisfied with a year and a half old 6 or 8 pointer and then praise the attributes or AR's. Biologically there is no difference in taking any one of the 4 that I mentioned. They are the same animal. 

[G-Man]

ar's  in high density area can quickly high grade a herd. killing your 6 and 8pt 1.5 year old bucks will cause a shift to large 4pt amd spikes at 2.5 amd older..( yes i know a spike can grow larger with age but if you kill alll  buck 3 pt.a side or greater the only bucks that will advance in age are inferior racked spikes and 4pt.. they can get huge ) an age restriction is a much better form of management

[biggamefish]

5 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I just don't get the  patting of ones self on the back for passing up on a spike or 4 point, then be perfectly satisfied with a year and a half old 6 or 8 pointer and then praise the attributes or AR's. Biologically there is no difference in taking any one of the 4 that I mentioned. They are the same animal. 

I hear what you are saying but I think in most of ny state an 8 is 2+. I know where there is ample nutriants it can happen but for most of us an 8 is not an 1.5 year old deer.

[hrvat]

i hunt properties in 3k and 3h,both AR wmu

hasn't helped any that i could tell and with ppreq for doe,it's just a waste of gas going up there most years

 

in 3k,since the AR has been implemented I've shot ONE decent 6 pt...plenty of deer,just none legal to shoot

[G-Man]

18 hours ago, biggamefish said:

I hear what you are saying but I think in most of ny state an 8 is 2+. I know where there is ample nutriants it can happen but for most of us an 8 is not an 1.5 year old deer.

most of wny and central ny can and do have a large number od 7pt or better yearlings.. in high densitiy areas these are shot because its a 8pt  or a 10pt..ect 

[dbHunterNY]

On 10/30/2018 at 3:08 PM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I just don't get the  patting of ones self on the back for passing up on a spike or 4 point, then be perfectly satisfied with a year and a half old 6 or 8 pointer and then praise the attributes or AR's. Biologically there is no difference in taking any one of the 4 that I mentioned. They are the same animal. 

i totally agree which is why we do what we do. AR's aren't a means to an end.  The whole reason AR's get a bad rap is because the education is left behind.  General hunting public doesn't understand why you'd do it. They just "know" it's a restriction and others "know" it'll magically produces a fully mature buck you see shot on TV.

counter point to your post though biologically it doesn't mean a thing if 6 or 8 point yearling dies. the AR whether with points or spread would be tailored to the area to protect most yearling bucks which is still biologically sound. a buck with better antlers for it's age class getting whacked before it reaches it's potential is a trophy management thing not a quality deer management thing.

[dbHunterNY]

22 hours ago, G-Man said:

ar's  in high density area can quickly high grade a herd. killing your 6 and 8pt 1.5 year old bucks will cause a shift to large 4pt amd spikes at 2.5 amd older..( yes i know a spike can grow larger with age but if you kill alll  buck 3 pt.a side or greater the only bucks that will advance in age are inferior racked spikes and 4pt.. they can get huge ) an age restriction is a much better form of management

while i agree high grading is a real thing and restriction based on age is a much better form of management, the later isn't practical with the general hunting public.  we as a group largely can't age a buck on the hoof even with trail cam photos prior to seeing it out hunting.  the concept of high grading is blown into something way worse than it would really be. i've seen results of antler restrictions being tinkered with on a very large scale for almost 2 decades now and it's not as your implying. in all honesty where ever the whitetail roams high grading is done to a degree. rarely is the case a deer makes it past 3.5 yrs old. even then the best bucks get the most pursued in each age class. only on the most strictly trophy managed property does it not happen.

[dbHunterNY]

18 hours ago, hrvat said:

i hunt properties in 3k and 3h,both AR wmu

hasn't helped any that i could tell and with ppreq for doe,it's just a waste of gas going up there most years

 

in 3k,since the AR has been implemented I've shot ONE decent 6 pt...plenty of deer,just none legal to shoot

that's means there's other hunters around you that by luck, better property, or some other reason have gotten to them first.  no debating the fact it does make for less opportunity than anything legal (meaning practically any buck).

[Nomad]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

most of wny and central ny can and do have a large number od 7pt or better yearlings.. in high densitiy areas these are shot because its a 8pt  or a 10pt..ect 

Agree , I’ve killed a pile of 8-10 pt year and a half’s back when I was happy with the first 8pt or up to come along . 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

15 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

i totally agree which is why we do what we do. AR's aren't a means to an end.  The whole reason AR's get a bad rap is because the education is left behind.  General hunting public doesn't understand why you'd do it. They just "know" it's a restriction and others "know" it'll magically produces a fully mature buck you see shot on TV.

counter point to your post though biologically it doesn't mean a thing if 6 or 8 point yearling dies. the AR whether with points or spread would be tailored to the area to protect most yearling bucks which is still biologically sound. a buck with better antlers for it's age class getting whacked before it reaches it's potential is a trophy management thing not a quality deer management thing.

But to most of the folks wanting AR's it IS because they want a chance at a better buck. So taking the highest quality year and a half olds out of the mix is counter productive to me. If their goal is to be able to shoot more mature deer with bigger racks it would be far better to let all the the 1.5's go. That is where the education comes in so they can identify what they have in front of them and then make their call. My point was mainly at the guys that push the AR's and then show a pic of a 6 or 8 point 1.5's all pumped up and talking about the spikes and 4 points they passed on. Those are the same deer as the ones they took. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 10/30/2018 at 8:59 PM, biggamefish said:

I hear what you are saying but I think in most of ny state an 8 is 2+. I know where there is ample nutriants it can happen but for most of us an 8 is not an 1.5 year old deer.

Ok.  I have hunted in many areas of the state and  I've seen my share of 6 and 8's that were 1.5's I have boxes of those antlers. Take my statement and remove the 8 pointers and let's just use the 6 points. 

[Dom]

To myself AR's are for head hunters.I once shot a doe at 120 yrds and when I got up to her it was a 4 point so I wasted a buck tag that season because I could not see the antlers behind the ears.

[CapDistPatriot]

On 10/30/2018 at 1:14 PM, rjrdomer said:

A number of interesting points have come up here.  Short answer is, I am mixed. I don't know if the ARs are working. Anecdotally, I'm seeing more larger deer on camera and in the field.  Still seeing more does than bucks, for sure. I've also heard others in the area say they've been seeing more larger deer than prior years.  This is WMU 4R/4G/Schoharie/Delaware/Greene Counties. It's tough to say if this is a direct result of ARs or if it is something related to better habitat, better hunter education, better hunting through technology (we didn't have trail cameras years ago).  

Are we seeing more deer than 30-40 years ago?  For sure.  That's clear. Versus 10 years ago...I'd say maybe. It's one of those things that is difficult to really test for since there are so many variables. Do the ARs stop people from shooting small bucks? Maybe...it should....but there are unscrupulous people out there who don't follow the rules.  Especially in WMUs that border non-AR units, but I understand you have to draw the line somewhere.  But what the ARs did do, is  encouraged some hunters to go elsewhere.  Why make the day trip to an AR area if you can go to another WMU?  So maybe the combination of fewer hunters in AR areas coupled with the actual restrictions are increasing big buck numbers.  Was the state's intention to keep the city folk from day tripping to the catskills, hopping out of the truck, walking through the woods, and shooting a spike and going away?  Yeah maybe.  It's tough to say.   NYS has never been a hunter friendly state, so it's quite possible they just want fewer people in the woods.

I think the ARs by themselves would work well if they also increased the number of doe tags in a unit. Are numbers really that low that they don't want to issue doe tags?  My ratio of does to bucks is probably 10:1.  Science behind ARs is mixed....but it has been proven, kill a few more does and you'll likely see more bucks.  Granted, there has to be a balance so you don't wipe out the population.  Also, if someone cheats the AR rule, it defeats the whole purpose.  That 4 pointer on your property could be a 6 or 8 next year unless someone cheats and shoots it.  

Texas has an interesting view on ARs that have seemed to work.  I understand this is Texas and a very different environment than NY.  But in TX, you are allowed to shoot a spike or a deer with a wide spread (the measurement escapes me).  Thought being, keep the spikes from reproducing...they've proven, at least in Texas that spikes pass on inferior antler genes to the next generation.  And then the medium deer get to grow.  

So there's probably more the state could do if they really wanted to help things.  ARs likely work, but like I said, I'm sort of mixed because they can probably pull more levers with doe tags and other things.  I'd also allow predator (coyote) hunting during spring turkey season and all deer seasons if taken incidental to turkey and deer hunting.  

Good post bud. There is a lot to be said about managing genetics (the reference to Texas) and how that has a direct correlation to a healthy and strong herd.  I think simply allowing more doe tags would help things dramatically.

[dbHunterNY]

7 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

But to most of the folks wanting AR's it IS because they want a chance at a better buck. So taking the highest quality year and a half olds out of the mix is counter productive to me. If their goal is to be able to shoot more mature deer with bigger racks it would be far better to let all the the 1.5's go. That is where the education comes in so they can identify what they have in front of them and then make their call. My point was mainly at the guys that push the AR's and then show a pic of a 6 or 8 point 1.5's all pumped up and talking about the spikes and 4 points they passed on. Those are the same deer as the ones they took. 

i agree if you're pushing AR's it should be because you understand the need to pass yearlings in areas with little to no age structure. in that case you probably shouldn't necessarily be shooting that yearling. you have to practice what you preach.  in reality most are for protecting some bucks, we all just have various preferred methods to do so within the confines of our situation. very few shoot the absolute first legal buck that presents an opportunity, whether they lower standards or not throughout the season.  it's a very real situation though that many hunters feel compelled to default to the legal minimum.  i fully believe that despite the the statewide plan was bastardized, it's a great start that had data and science behind it. the restrictions based on area largely came from DEC. versus making it disappear because we don't like it, maybe it should be embraced along with education to better run with the whole voluntary restriction idea.  you have to give people tools and knowledge to make an educated choice. QDM co-ops work and are the future in my opinion. an important tool many rely on though is some form of antler restriction to lessen the learning curve. ARs instead of being taken for what they are as something imperfect you can at least work with are trashed. so now indirectly when someone brings up the idea of a QDM co-op it's trashed.  IMO the only idea statewide ARs were pushed so hard at different times was to offset the push from the other way.

[G-Man]

honestly as was said before shooting your 1.5 year old 6 and 8pt is very counter productive.. i tell guys if you just want meat shoot the spike.. every one know a spike can grow to a 10pt or bigger 

but think on this an 8 is already an 8. a spike is usually late born,maalnourished or a combination. we do not have the ability to see its dna potential . but i know for dam sure the 8 pt will be an 8 pt the following year or bigger. the spike may take 3 to 5 years to catch up to a prime 1.5 year old..  so saving a spike and killing the prime 6 or 8 is to me foolish.. all 1.5 should be let pass if your gonna manage. the areas with ars is simply a creation by several small groups and is not biologically based ..

[Freytown]

I hunt in 4W on public land and have seen less deer (and hunters) since AR implemented. But being from PA I can say that AR does produce bigger bucks than before AR. 

One problem I have experience in both PA & NY is verifying number of points. Many times I see antlered bucks but they're gone before I'm sure about points. I can live with or without AR, but AR does let the bucks get older and produce larger racks...why wouldn't it?  FT

[wildcat junkie]

On 10/30/2018 at 7:33 PM, G-Man said:

ar's  in high density area can quickly high grade a herd. killing your 6 and 8pt 1.5 year old bucks will cause a shift to large 4pt amd spikes at 2.5 amd older..( yes i know a spike can grow larger with age but if you kill alll  buck 3 pt.a side or greater the only bucks that will advance in age are inferior racked spikes and 4pt.. they can get huge ) an age restriction is a much better form of management

4 1/2 year old 219# dressed weight 4 point. Dominant buck on my farm. Never saw or killed a rack buck until I took him out.

[SteveB]

On 10/30/2018 at 3:08 PM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I just don't get the  patting of ones self on the back for passing up on a spike or 4 point, then be perfectly satisfied with a year and a half old 6 or 8 pointer and then praise the attributes or AR's. Biologically there is no difference in taking any one of the 4 that I mentioned. They are the same animal. 

I've said this since the beginning of the AR talk. Will add that even targeting them at 2 1/2 is no better as they are still a young IMMATURE deer - hardly a teenager in human scale. The vast majority of mandatory AR supporters either don't realize or will not admit they are after bucks that have a few more points or is SLIGHTLY bigger - and not a MATURE animal.