Miserable sight in

[turkeyfeathers]

Side note : own a Winchester apex magnum 209.  No black horn breech plug available. Does anybody on line re tool to accommodate BH ? 

[Otto]

48 minutes ago, Chef said:

I wonder what it could be I’m using white hots which is what cva Recommends.

The accuracy issue was 100% the scope


I’m gunna order the bh breech plug and switch over after the season


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I used 777 to start with and switched over to White Hots because they were supposed to be “cleaner”.  Not in my experience!  2 or 3 shots through the barrel and you had to clean it or you would not be able to reload it.  

I am planning to switch to the 209 powder, but that will be on next years list.  I’ll be using the rest of my 777’s this season.  

Edited December 5, 2019 by Otto

[Robhuntandfish]

I haven't used anything other than the 777 pellets and haven't had any issues with consistancy.  My muzzleloader is my most accurate gun at 100 yards.  Only prob I have had is 2nd shot is always a about 4 inches lower.  I was sighting in and running bore cleaner thru it every 3rd shot.  It was a little harder to load but not that bad.  

Never figure I'm getting more than 2-3 shots at the very most in most any situation. Most likely a finishing shot for the second. Which is what I had last season. 

But first shot Everytime with the 777 is dead on. 

[Jeremy K]

20 minutes ago, Chef said:

So to buckmaster and Jeremy are there any pellets that you think would be better in the meantime before I get the 209 plug


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Tacks was shooting some that he didn't hate ,I can't recall what they were offhand . 

[Jeremy K]

24 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

I have done both to check and the weight never varied more than 1g or so based on a measured 120 volume.  Like you, I don’t weigh it anymore. Fill the tube to 120 and it’s good.  

Ouch ,my shoulder was tender after 6 or 7 shots with 100g of Blackhorn LOL.

[moog5050]

1 minute ago, Jeremy K said:

Ouch ,my shoulder was tender after 6 or 7 shots with 100g of Blackhorn LOL.

Honestly I don’t really notice any kick on that gun.  It’s the charge that seemed most accurate from my ML.   

[Buckmaster7600]

I have done both to check and the weight never varied more than 1g or so based on a measured 120 volume.  Like you, I don’t weigh it anymore. Fill the tube to 120 and it’s good.  

I have also quit weighting them, I had a powder scoop made that fits 120gn by volume and that’s all I use now. The scoops is always within a grain.


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[Buckmaster7600]

So to buckmaster and Jeremy are there any pellets that you think would be better in the meantime before I get the 209 plug


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I don’t know what else is out there, 777 are most popular but unless they’ve changed it in the last 6 or 7 years they suck too.


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[TACC]

Keep us posted on your progress

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[Chef]

Keep us posted on your progress

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I will man thank you!


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[moog5050]

53 minutes ago, turkeyfeathers said:

Side note : own a Winchester apex magnum 209.  No black horn breech plug available. Does anybody on line re tool to accommodate BH ? 

Do some research, but I though you could just drill out the hole a bit.  Maybe I am dreaming that I read they somewhere.  

Quick search wasn’t dreaming:  https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/boring-out-cva-breech-plug-for-bh-209-use.359687/

Edited December 5, 2019 by moog5050

[G-Man]

Imo the pellets are part of the issue, they do not completely fill the board and will create a ring of unburned powder. you basically make a mini pipe bomb every time they are used. 

Second issue is pellets do not let you get any where near the maximum efficiency losses powder does. 

I can raise the impact of my muzzleloader 1 inch at a time simply by adding 5 grains of powder. A true benefit on a non scoped gun with fixed sights and easier than blowing powder out the barrel and trying to adjust scope. 

You should hear sharp crack with no flame or excessive smoke if your shooting the correct amount of powder.. some of my guns perform with 85 grains ,115, 95, and 55.. all combination impossible with pellet that may vary 5 to 9 grains per pellet..  shooting correct amount of powder will eliminate the ring of powder that you encountered while sighting in trying to load bullet.

[nyslowhand]

42 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Do some research, but I though you could just drill out the hole a bit.  Maybe I am dreaming that I read they somewhere.  

Quick search wasn’t dreaming:  https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/boring-out-cva-breech-plug-for-bh-209-use.359687/

^^^ This is not a DIY project & finding a machine shop to do it for $10 would be almost impossible. Also you'll probably create more headaches than if you spent the $20-30 for a new breech plug sized the way you want it to be.

Ever look down the flash hole in your breech plug with background light illuminating that small bore? It clearly is not a mere drilled port hole!

[moog5050]

10 minutes ago, nyslowhand said:

^^^ This is not a DIY project & finding a machine shop to do it for $10 would be almost impossible. Also you'll probably create more headaches than if you spent the $20-30 for a new breech plug sized the way you want it to be.

Ever look down the flash hole in your breech plug with background light illuminating that small bore? It clearly is not a mere drilled port hole!

No idea how difficult the process is which is why I said he should do some research.  But I think TF was saying that he can’t find a breech plug that is 209 compatible for that gun.  

[Hunter007]

18 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

No idea how difficult the process is which is why I said he should do some research.  But I think TF was saying that he can’t find a breech plug that is 209 compatible for that gun.  

You Need a drill press  the right clamp  the right drill bit   and if you mess up you just made a pipe bomb  no thanks . 

 

[Jeremy K]

I could drill the breech plug on a drill press . I've also got almost 25 years I  the machine trades ,I wouldn't recommend someone trying it unless you have a really good grasp on holding a somewhat tight tolerance ,specifically on the depth of the hole you need to drill. The flame channel stays the same diameter, you are counter drilling /boring the breech plug so that the flame channel gets shortened .

[BizCT]

Chef - would it be easier to hunt the late season with a xbow or bow?


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[Zem18]

I have the same issue Jay has but my ML is a CVA Kodiak. I did several searches and found a guy that used to modify the plugs about 3 years ago based on the forum posts dates.(didn't search hard for newer posts) He is on Huntingnet.com and even has picture tutorials of the process. I think I may try to contact him in the off season so hopefully I can switch to BH209 next year. Here is his info but you will need to join Huntingnet.com to message him.

 

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[Chef]

Chef - would it be easier to hunt the late season with a xbow or bow?


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Yes and no, easier in terms of getting there yes. Where I’m seeing activity no


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[Jeremy K]

7 hours ago, Zem18 said:

I have the same issue Jay has but my ML is a CVA Kodiak. I did several searches and found a guy that used to modify the plugs about 3 years ago based on the forum posts dates.(didn't search hard for newer posts) He is on Huntingnet.com and even has picture tutorials of the process. I think I may try to contact him in the off season so hopefully I can switch to BH209 next year. Here is his info but you will need to join Huntingnet.com to message him.

 

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Also in that picture ,you can see that the breech plug was drilled out and tapped to install what they call a vent liner . They install a stainless steel flat head screw with the flame hole drilled through . It allows for the breech plug to be "rebuilt" once the flame channel becomes worn out from shooting and cleaning ,just unscrew the vent liner and screw a new one in. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Jeremy K

[Doewhacker]

In some guns it’s more than just the breech plug that is the issue. In the Lyman Mustang I own it is the plug and a head space issue on the primer. 
 

Bottom line is it’s a better idea to get a new gun than to mess around with something that can fail and harm you. 

[Jeremy K]

10 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

In some guns it’s more than just the breech plug that is the issue. In the Lyman Mustang I own it is the plug and a head space issue on the primer. 
 

Bottom line is it’s a better idea to get a new gun than to mess around with something that can fail and harm you. 

I think you hit the nail on the head ,yes any gun can be modified to shoot BH, but is it safe ? BH adds a bunch more pressure to the equation ,i guess the question then becomes ,was the barrel intended to handle the increased pressure ? 

[gastrodoc]

Been using Pyrodex pellets or powder for 20 yrs and never an issue.  Can always shoot 3 SSTs before needing to swab barrel.  Shots are always consistent and never a misfire on any of my inlines

[rachunter]

10 hours ago, stubborn1VT said:

Good info.  I can't switch to bh209 without switching muzzleloaders.  So my question is, can I avoid the crud ring by going to loose powder vs pellets?  

 

I use alliant MZ powder in my hawkens it burns cleaner then the others.I can't use blackthorn in the hawken as per TC techs.I bring a thermos of hot water and run a wet patch when I need too.Nothing beats the blackhorn209.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/blackmz.aspx

[Doewhacker]

11 minutes ago, rachunter said:

I use alliant MZ powder in my hawkens it burns cleaner then the others.I can't use blackthorn in the hawken as per TC techs.I bring a thermos of hot water and run a wet patch when I need too.Nothing beats the blackhorn209.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/blackmz.aspx

I use the BMZ too, it can be used in any gun. I was impressed to say the least. 
 

and Chef I have only used loose powder, my gun shoots best with a compressed load and I can’t imagine it’d be worse than pellets for any gun. 
 

There is a “Select” powder by Pyrodex I may try someday. Supposed be their cleanest powder. 
 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Doewhacker
Checked brand of powder