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DEC Proposes Potential Future "Holiday" Deer Hunt

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1 minute ago, Chef said:

Everyone write your state congressman and let’s push this through... stick it to those dam snowmobilers


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Chef, if only, I had alot of extra help in June of 2015 when another DEC Proposal moved through easily.  I did indeed write a 3 page hand written letter.

   That Proposal which affected Zones 3 + 4 the most was to ( Slash) the Fall Turkey Season from 6 Weeks to a mere 2 Weeks and to cut by 50% the Fall Turkey Take from 2 Turkeys to just 1 Turkey. ( Zones 3+ 4 had a 2 Turkey Limit).  Western NY already had a long standing 1 Bird Fall Limit because of the absolutely huge " reported" Fall Turkey Take.

   In addition to the above-- the Fall Turkey Season was moved ( Back) from the Traditional Fall Turkey opener of October 1st to " this year" in my area-- October 17th.   

  At the very same time-- the Early Deer Archery Season ( gained) an extra 2 weeks and was moved from mid October to a new opening day of October 1st.--- Basically a Reversal of the opening Days of Early Archery Deer + Fall Turkey.

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30 minutes ago, phade said:

Snowmobile industry value...$9B per year for Canada and US

Hunting industry value...$23.7B per year in the US only with $11.6B of it related to hunting trip expenses - IE gas stations, restaurants, hotels, etc.

And let's see how those overall numbers equate to NYS... You are also lumping all forms of "hunting" into the hunting numbers, not just deer hunting that we are talking about.  I guess I'm a bit sensitive to this since I'm both an avid hunter as well as an avid snowmobiler.  What does each dollar figure include?  are property taxes included into the hunting number? If so, I'd say that's a bit of an unfair advantage... When you say hunting trip expenses, are you including guided hunts to other destinations of the US (I bet it is included), so what does that have to do with extending late deer season in NY?  What I'm getting at is if you look at just NYS, I'm willing to bet that the snowmobiling industry outpaces the deer hunting industry by a fair margin.  And like has been stated before in this thread the season isn't long enough (10/1-12-22)?

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For those of you that may be interested in providing input for or against they have provided a email link.

DEC invites the public to submit comments on the proposal by November 8, 2020 via email (subject line: Holiday Deer Hunt Proposal) or in writing to:   

Attn: Holiday Deer Hunt Proposal
NYSDEC Bureau of Wildlife
625 Broadway, 5th Floor
Albany, NY 12233-4754 

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44 minutes ago, phade said:

Snowmobile industry value...$9B per year for Canada and US

Hunting industry value...$23.7B per year in the US only with $11.6B of it related to hunting trip expenses - IE gas stations, restaurants, hotels, etc.

Those numbers dont really show a good representation of the issue in NYS though. The snowmobilers have much better representation due to the vast majority of people who ride belonging to a club . Give a bar/restaurant the choice between business from people hunting or people who snowmobile and it's easy to say who they would choose ,bars are loaded with sled traffic as long as the trails are open ,bars might see a couple old farts drinking draft beer to 9 before they go home and get a good night sleep. 

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Just now, Jeremy K said:

Those numbers dont really show a good representation of the issue in NYS though. The snowmobilers have much better representation due to the vast majority of people who ride belonging to a club . Give a bar/restaurant the choice between business from people hunting or people who snowmobile and it's easy to say who they would choose ,bars are loaded with sled traffic as long as the trails are open ,bars might see a couple old farts drinking draft beer to 9 before they go home and get a good night sleep. 

providing there is actual snow.  Seems most winters having a sled anymore isnt even worth it.  I have a buddy that drags snowmobiles and I think they had 2 races all of last season. 

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7 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

providing there is actual snow.  Seems most winters having a sled anymore isnt even worth it.  I have a buddy that drags snowmobiles and I think they had 2 races all of last season. 

I have one sitting in my garage that I haven't ridden in 5 years ,the season certainly isnt as good as they used to be. 

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17 hours ago, Robhuntandfish said:

If you want to shorten season then just stop hunting, many people do not get the same oppurtunities as others to hunt multiple days and take time off and have private land.  

I understand the idea here though. For some, hunting is a disease. We will keep setting that alarm and putting off other things to go sit another 3 or 4 hours in the woods until you tell us that legally we can't. Last year was a tough grind for me. I kept trudging out to try and punch that buck tag and by the end I didn't enjoy it. There's a small part of me that wishes someone took the choice away from me.

If that makes any sense. 


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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3 hours ago, Jeremy K said:

Wait til the snowmobile crowd has a say ,this will be dead in the water . They have way more representation and money then the hunting community does .

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure that's true. I'd be genuinely curious what you could share to support this.

1 hour ago, Jeremy K said:

Snowmobilers spend a ton of money at gas stations and and bars and restaurants, the same can not be said for hunters ,money talks.

what do us hunters do? parachute in and eat grubs?


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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I think the extended season could work. In recent years there has not been enough snow to ride prior to January in the southern zone and many snowmobile clubs have trails closed due to volunteers still signing/clearing trails at that time. Most of my riding time, even into early January, has to be done in the northern zone.

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10 minutes ago, Belo said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure that's true. I'd be genuinely curious what you could share to support this.

what do us hunters do? parachute in and eat grubs?

Hunters stay at camp and cook . I've been involved with snowmobilers for a number of years ,they are far more organized then the hunters and way more active in politics as a whole then the hunters 

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13 minutes ago, Belo said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure that's true. I'd be genuinely curious what you could share to support this.

what do us hunters do? parachute in and eat grubs?

Hes spot on, snowmobilers make or break some of the bars around here. I dont think hunters have any impact whatsoever. Even opening weekend

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I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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19 minutes ago, Belo said:

I understand the idea here though. For some, hunting is a disease. We will keep setting that alarm and putting off other things to go sit another 3 or 4 hours in the woods until you tell us that legally we can't. Last year was a tough grind for me. I kept trudging out to try and punch that buck tag and by the end I didn't enjoy it. There's a small part of me that wishes someone took the choice away from me.

If that makes any sense. 

I do the same lol and wear myself out, tough year last season.  But never want to restrict freedoms or oppurtunities. I shouldnt drink the big gulp yes but I also dont want Bloomberg telling me i cant have it.  Same theory applies. 

 I also remember coming home from college to the season being closed and years i worked multiple jobs and was lucky to get out twice a year. More available days as long as the biology can support it is a win. 

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19 minutes ago, Belo said:

I understand the idea here though. For some, hunting is a disease. We will keep setting that alarm and putting off other things to go sit another 3 or 4 hours in the woods until you tell us that legally we can't. Last year was a tough grind for me. I kept trudging out to try and punch that buck tag and by the end I didn't enjoy it. There's a small part of me that wishes someone took the choice away from me.

If that makes any sense. 

I get it.

At 63 years old, by the time the season is over now, I've about had enough. Of the early morning alarms, cold sits, and less deer sightings. But I just can't stop, until the law says it's time to, if I still have a tag! A couple years ago, I hobbled out shortly after bladder surgery! I just couldn't NOT go!!!

If this passes, I will probably hunt a day or two, if I still have tags left?  But this older version of myself may protest a little.

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I feel for the snowmobilers, it seems like the past few years we've had the best conditions during the deer season and then almost no snow after. Does this extension definitely keep the trails closed?


I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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21 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

Hunters stay at camp and cook . I've been involved with snowmobilers for a number of years ,they are far more organized then the hunters and way more active in politics as a whole then the hunters 

 

21 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Hes spot on, snowmobilers make or break some of the bars around here. I dont think hunters have any impact whatsoever. Even opening weekend

oh i'm on board, but i'm a data guy, not an anecdotal guy when it comes to looking at overall economic impact. What does a hunting lease/cabin generate vs the local bar? Every year I read about a drunk snowmobiler who dies. How impactful are those few hole in the wall bars in the remote areas of the state vs a whole state of deer hunters? 

I have a place up north, I get it and I'm just playing devils advocate as I'm not sure that the few bars outweigh the other puts and takes from the hunting community. I do agree that they're well organized, I know a few members who are in clubs. Us hunters make our own clubs to fight other clubs over what they can and cannot shoot a deer with haha.


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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21 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

I do the same lol and wear myself out, tough year last season.  But never want to restrict freedoms or oppurtunities. I shouldnt drink the big gulp yes but I also dont want Bloomberg telling me i cant have it.  Same theory applies. 

 I also remember coming home from college to the season being closed and years i worked multiple jobs and was lucky to get out twice a year. More available days as long as the biology can support it is a win. 

yep you and i shared our misery last season. I too remember having only a few days in the woods when I was younger. I think generally I'm neutral on this proposal. Part of me would maybe support another $10 fee for the extended season to help generate conservation revenue. I'm sure some of you will baulk at that, but it's not like this is a new fee for something you enjoyed for free. This is a new fee for something extra "if you want it". Heck, don't even put that fee into the general conservation fund, dedicate it to public land access projects or something.

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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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3 minutes ago, Belo said:

 

oh i'm on board, but i'm a data guy, not an anecdotal guy when it comes to looking at overall economic impact. What does a hunting lease/cabin generate vs the local bar? Every year I read about a drunk snowmobiler who dies. How impactful are those few hole in the wall bars in the remote areas of the state vs a whole state of deer hunters? 

I have a place up north, I get it and I'm just playing devils advocate as I'm not sure that the few bars outweigh the other puts and takes from the hunting community. I do agree that they're well organized, I know a few members who are in clubs. Us hunters make our own clubs to fight other clubs over what they can and cannot shoot a deer with haha.

Even if the hunters had a big impact on the bars its just the 1 weekend vs 8 or 10 in a good snowmobile season. Ask a bar/restaurant owner and I will buy you a used snowmobile if they say hunters. By the way I will definitely weasel out of this if Im wrong

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I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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3 minutes ago, Belo said:

yep you and i shared our misery last season. I too remember having only a few days in the woods when I was younger. I think generally I'm neutral on this proposal. Part of me would maybe support another $10 fee for the extended season to help generate conservation revenue. I'm sure some of you will baulk at that, but it's not like this is a new fee for something you enjoyed for free. This is a new fee for something extra "if you want it". Heck, don't even put that fee into the general conservation fund, dedicate it to public land access projects or something.

Id happily pay double or triple for my license if the money was going to the right places


I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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5 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Even if the hunters had a big impact on the bars its just the 1 weekend vs 8 or 10 in a good snowmobile season. Ask a bar/restaurant owner and I will buy you a used snowmobile if they say hunters. By the way I will definitely weasel out of this if Im wrong

i think i'm not making my argument clear. I don't disagree at all on bars and restaurants. My point is more in-line with comparing the bars and restaurants the rely on snowmobilers (lets be honest, they're just getting by as is and there are less and less of them today than there were even 20 years ago) vs the impact a hunter may have by buying and leasing land, purchasing licenses, equipment, gas etc. 

I truly don't know the answer and I in no way want any small business to suffer and totally understand their protest. I was simply just asking for another look at what some claim to be a greater local financial impact than the other and supporting evidence, not anecdotal. 


"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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15 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

I feel for the snowmobilers, it seems like the past few years we've had the best conditions during the deer season and then almost no snow after. Does this extension definitely keep the trails closed?

100%, and the real problem around my area are snowmobilers riding before the trails are open and having trails shut down because the land owner is angry and I don't blame the land owner for being angry.

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2 minutes ago, Belo said:

i think i'm not making my argument clear. I don't disagree at all on bars and restaurants. My point is more in-line with comparing the bars and restaurants the rely on snowmobilers (lets be honest, they're just getting by as is and there are less and less of them today than there were even 20 years ago) vs the impact a hunter may have by buying and leasing land, purchasing licenses, equipment, gas etc. 

I truly don't know the answer and I in no way want any small business to suffer and totally understand their protest. I was simply just asking for another look at what some claim to be a greater local financial impact than the other and supporting evidence, not anecdotal. 

Where I hunt theyre the same guys really, the camps are all sledders

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I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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2 minutes ago, Belo said:

i think i'm not making my argument clear. I don't disagree at all on bars and restaurants. My point is more in-line with comparing the bars and restaurants the rely on snowmobilers (lets be honest, they're just getting by as is and there are less and less of them today than there were even 20 years ago) vs the impact a hunter may have by buying and leasing land, purchasing licenses, equipment, gas etc. 

I truly don't know the answer and I in no way want any small business to suffer and totally understand their protest. I was simply just asking for another look at what some claim to be a greater local financial impact than the other and supporting evidence, not anecdotal. 

You don't think that snowmobilers are buying camps in the area just to ride? How about the licenses fees we pay, of the highway tax we pay on fuel that never sees a highway, or the trailer purchases and registrations.  Let alone the $15,000 snowmobile that was bought, or the $1200-1500 suit and helmet.  Snowmobiling is a crazy expensive sport for what you get, but it's like nothing else when you're doing it.

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8 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

You don't think that snowmobilers are buying camps in the area just to ride? How about the licenses fees we pay, of the highway tax we pay on fuel that never sees a highway, or the trailer purchases and registrations.  Let alone the $15,000 snowmobile that was bought, or the $1200-1500 suit and helmet.  Snowmobiling is a crazy expensive sport for what you get, but it's like nothing else when you're doing it.

how many camps that are sled only are there compared to hunting camps?

how many leases are there going to farmers for hunting vs access fees for sleds?

how many hunters also have an atv, tractor, utv etc

my bow cost more than your suit and helmet

 

again i'm playing devils advocate. i used to own a sled but sold it as the opportunities to ride just weren't there for me. I think they're fun as hell, please don't take my points as being anti-sled. I'm still just not sure they dominate the impact on local economy over that of a hunter is all.

Edited by Belo

"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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2 minutes ago, Belo said:

how many camps that are sled only are there compared to hunting camps?

how many hunters also have an atv, tractor, utv etc

my bow cost more than your suit and helmet

 

again i'm playing devils advocate. i used to own a sled but sold it as the opportunities to ride just weren't there for me. I think they're fun as hell, please don't take my points as being anti-sled. I'm still just not sure they dominate the impact on local economy over that of a hunter is all.

I get what you're are saying to some extent, and don't get me wrong I'm into both hunting and snowmobiling deeper than i would bet 95% of the people on this board.  I would say if you looked at tug hill 80% of the camp revenue comes from snowmobilers compared to 20% hunters.  Are hunters burning 12-20 gallons of gas through their ATV per day of use, like a snowmobile?  I've also got the top of the line bow going, and how often are you replacing that?  I don't see the average hunter spending anywhere near what a snowmobiler does per day if you figure it out.  Hell the expendable cash per day of riding averages out about $150, that's just food and gas.

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37 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

I feel for the snowmobilers, it seems like the past few years we've had the best conditions during the deer season and then almost no snow after. Does this extension definitely keep the trails closed?

The problem will be the state land with trails and a good portion of the trail system is on private property which trails opening will be dictated by the land owner.

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