New York State Hunters Facing a Lead Ammo Ban

[Larry]

That would be bull shit, rifle shouldn’t be shot over water. As for water fowl hunting the ass hats in Albany should know we have been using non-toxic shot cense the 1980’s

[Splitear]

There is a "Non-Lead Ammo Training and Demo" at our 4-H Training Center on Monday. I plan on helping them set-up and attending some if I'm available. 

[Splitear]

1 minute ago, blackbeltbill said:

Does this stupid Lead Ban proposal  also include Lead shot that is " Plated" with Copper or Nickel??

Honestly, I have no idea. I've read a little on the periphery, but I don't know what it entails. I'm hoping I can learn a little bit more next week. 

[Dinsdale]

4 hours ago, blackbeltbill said:

Does this stupid Lead Ban proposal  also include Lead shot that is " Plated" with Copper or Nickel??

Any ammo that contains more then 1% lead by weight. So yes plated lead shot is included.

[Sir-diealot]

I thought it was just turned down along with the deer stuff released yesterday? It said they are "Encouraging" hunters not to use it but thought it had been turned down?

[Splitear]

6 minutes ago, Sir-diealot said:

I thought it was just turned down along with the deer stuff released yesterday? It said they are "Encouraging" hunters not to use it but thought it had been turned down?

That’s what I heard today. DEC is supposedly going to recommend non-lead, but since there is not any ammo available, they don’t want to mandate it. Should be an interesting presentation on Monday. 

[cas]

Another case of New York feeling inadequate. Trying ever so hard to keep up with California.

 

Think about the condors!  Oh wait...

 

 

[Splitear]

So yesterday's DEC Non-Lead training was fantastic. The presentation was offered by the North American Non-Lead Partnership, with Chris Parish from the Peregrine Fund and Leland Brown from the Oregon Zoo. Both of these guys are avid sportsmen, and presented the data and information in a very relatable way. Primarily the concerns are the break-up of lead ammunition and particles left in gut piles and carcasses. They have found convincing data that shows toxic levels of lead in raptors who feed on these food sources, whether it is large or small game. 

They were very realistic in terms of the lack of availability of non-lead (and lead for that matter). Their message was primarily that it should be the choice of the hunter to use a non-lead option. From a conservation standpoint, it made a lot of sense. They did not present any evidence that target shooting poses a risk to wildlife. They also stressed that their partnership is not involved in legislation or litigation. In fact, they did not offer to share their presentation because they worry that their work will be picked up by "antis" who might wish to misrepresent it. 

http://www.nonleadpartnership.org/

The most impressive part of the presentation was the ammunition demonstration. They did demonstrations with 30-06, .22 and .17. Demonstrations were done with water blocks to measure the amount of weight retention and break-up. They also demonstrated with ballistics gel to show the performance of the bullets. I will say that there was a dramatic difference between the lead ammunition and non-lead, with very little fragmentation occurring in the copper, and a surprising amount in the lead ammunition. The copper retained a lot of mass, and almost looked like a flower bloom  after expansion. I wish I had photos, but my phone took a swim on Sunday, and I didn't have a camera.

Long story short, it sounds like DEC is not going to be pushing legislation regarding lead ammunition. They seemed to be very supportive of training staff to go across the state to meet with sportsmen and women to distribute the data and information. I would encourage that if you see something like this come up in your area, you attend. Very interesting stuff. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Splitear

[wolc123]

I wonder if anyone has studied the number of raptors that are killed by wind turbines, compared to those that die from lead poisening, caused by foraging on gut piles.

I think a lot more raptors would be saved by banning wind turbines.

Edited June 29, 2021 by wolc123

[dbHunterNY]

All those benefits make sense and seems to be science backed. What isn't covered so much is concerns of minimum velocity for that flower looking expansion being much high with non-lead ammo vs lead. I feel like you're pushed to go with a lighter bullet for more speed to allow for this expansion and weight retention would be equal to what heavier lead bullet you would be normally using. Nonlead choices are definitely more expensive and BC sucks compared to lead options. That's my gripe.


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[Splitear]

29 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

All those benefits make sense and seems to be science backed. What isn't covered so much is concerns of minimum velocity for that flower looking expansion being much high with non-lead ammo vs lead. I feel like you're pushed to go with a lighter bullet for more speed to allow for this expansion and weight retention would be equal to what heavier lead bullet you would be normally using. Nonlead choices are definitely more expensive and BC sucks compared to lead options. That's my gripe.


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I think you are right on the bit about bullet weights and velocity, I especially noticed it in the .22, with the lead weight at 40 gr, and non-lead at 21gr. Even at that, they said that the .22 ammunition is not great, with issues from lethality to operation in semi-automatic guns. 

We are limited to 50yds with our range, so velocity with the 06 was not representative of what it would be at longer distances. However, if copper ammunition were available to me in addition to lead, I believe I would now consider using it for hunting purposes, even if it cost more. That excludes the .22lr, just based on the reviews of current production ammunition. 

Another interesting note was that with their discussion with ammunition producers, they estimate that only 10-15% of production ammunition is used for hunting, with the bulk going to DoD and recreational shooting. With that being the case, there is little incentive for them to make shifts in production related to a smaller market share in the segment. So, even when ammunition starts making it way back to shelves, chances are that we still will not see an influx of non-lead options, especially in lesser common calibers. I asked them about my 300 Savage, and they said they doubted as to if there will be production of non-lead cartridges for it.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Splitear

[NonTypical]

4 hours ago, Splitear said:

Another interesting note was that with their discussion with ammunition producers, they estimate that only 10-15% of production ammunition is used for hunting, with the bulk going to DoD and recreational shooting. With that being the case, there is little incentive for them to make shifts in production related to a smaller market share in the segment. So, even when ammunition starts making it way back to shelves, chances are that we still will not see an influx of non-lead options, especially in lesser common calibers. I asked them about my 300 Savage, and they said they doubted as to if there will be production of non-lead cartridges for it.

If you reload, or can find someone to do it for you, you could use these projectiles for your 300 Savage. Solid copper and an improved design over the Barnes bullets. 
https://www.cavitybackbullets.com/category-s/117.htm

Edited June 29, 2021 by NonTypical

[dbHunterNY]

Thought about the lehigh controlled chaos stuff but not sold yet on the fragmenting berger like idea. Only because I process my own deer though. Energy dump and expansion at lower velocity I like.

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[Lucky118]

11 hours ago, wolc123 said:

I wonder if anyone has studied the number of raptors that are killed by wind turbines, compared to those that die from lead poisening, caused by foraging on gut piles.

I think a lot more raptors would be saved by banning wind turbines.

Shoot i see tons of dead hawks on the highway. Should ban cars lol

[Grouse]

This is not about saving raptors.  It's about harassing gun owners.

[rachunter]

So is this officially a dead bill? I ordered 200 copper bullets for my 3006 just incase it passed.

[Dinsdale]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:31 AM, Splitear said:

 

The most impressive part of the presentation was the ammunition demonstration. They did demonstrations with 30-06, .22 and .17. Demonstrations were done with water blocks to measure the amount of weight retention and break-up. They also demonstrated with ballistics gel to show the performance of the bullets. I will say that there was a dramatic difference between the lead ammunition and non-lead, with very little fragmentation occurring in the copper, and a surprising amount in the lead ammunition. The copper retained a lot of mass, and almost looked like a flower bloom  after expansion. I wish I had photos, but my phone took a swim on Sunday, and I didn't have a camera.

 

Understanding of course that there is significant difference in weight retention based on bullet construction and design, right?

I can shoot a frangible lead varmint round or a bonded bullet and achieve a spectrum of bullet fragmentation.

I hardly ever recover any bullets and those I do have large weight retention, sheding very little, and those recoveries are extreme quartering shots traversing long axis of animals in general. I don't believe in energy dump, want 2 holes, and fast velocities; you get that with bullets that stay together.

But you can mitigate lead contamination based on bullet construction. And again you'll be faced with increased cost per shot, harder to make bullets cost more.

And I have shot all copper( my 300wby loves the tsx, most accurate groups I have ever shot, hands down), and terrific terminal performance. So I have no issue with copper and a fan.

I just like full information on someone touting a particular demonstration as fact.