Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[13BVET]

Okay, these are my thoughts, although I know some will disagree, and I respect that. First of all, antlers do not determine how old a deer is. Food sources are responsible for antler growth. I have known people who took spikes, that were as old as all hell. The proof of this, is the fact that 55% of bucks harvested in Pa., were yearlings. That seems awful high still, if the idea was based on taking "mature" bucks. Also, I would imagine, that leaves a lot of immature bucks to breed does, which isn't necessarily a good thing. I also found it interesting, that the overall deer population in Pa. is in decline. That one baffles the mind. Mississippi, which had antler restrictions, actually had problems with it, because hunters were shooting the bucks as soon as they became legal, resulting in breeding by young deer, which has actually resulted in decline in antler size. As for myself, I pass on youngsters. But, that's my option. As for the guy that shoots the spike, he paid just as much for the license, and, for all I know, needs the food for his family, especially with today's economy. As long as they're within the law, it's not my place to judge. Just my personal opinion.

[Doc]

As for the guy that shoots the spike, he paid just as much for the license, and, for all I know, needs the food for his family, especially with today's economy. As long as they're within the law, it's not my place to judge. Just my personal opinion.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[growalot]

I asked this question a long while ago...can't find it....not sure if it was answered...

So the Idea is to get ppl shooting bigger racked...supposedly older deer...not sure that really correlates ...but if this is implemented and a few years down the road ppl really are shooting only mature buck...how is that healthy for the herd? I mean look at types of hunters and dates of hunting...especially if crossbows go into archery season...you have a great many mature buck being shot before or right at the beginning of the rut....so in an area of high hunter #'s...who's doing all the breeding?...but...Oh ya the young buck..for the older smarter buck that aren't shot are now laying low in some swamp some place until things settle down..and who's still on their feet running doe?...serious ? here any thoughts....

[ejp419]

This should eliminate some of the confusion about deer genetics and it comes from a PA wildlife biologist. Telling the geneetics of a 1.5 year old deer is virtually impossible. Does also carry the same gentics as bucks. AR's are not perfect but bottom line is it is a step in the right direction. It's easier for most hunters to count points then age a deer by body characteristics. One thing I do know; when you shot a spike or four pointer I guess his genetics don't matter. The deer is dead!

Antler restrictions are killing our best  genetics by harvesting 6 & 8 pointers 1.5 year olds. What do you  think?

  Antler restrictions have been a positive for  Pennsylvania’s deer management program. Since antler restrictions started in  2002, yearling buck survival has increased (from 15% to 52%), harvest of adult  bucks has increased (from ~20% to ~50% of total buck harvest), and hunter  support has increased (from 57% to 63%). However, there are still criticisms,  many of which center around genetics. The argument that we are removing our  “best” yearling bucks from the population, which in turn is affecting population  genetics, is common. However, when we take a closer look, with the help of new  technology and research, the genetics concern is unfounded.

  First, deer are wild animals in an uncontrolled  environment. Unlike a bull in a pasture full of cows that can’t run away, a  buck’s world is full of competition. Bucks compete with each other and must  compete for receptive does. Genetics research has shown that yearling males are  participating in breeding even in populations with 50% of males being 3.5 years  old and older. Since most of Pennsylvania’s bucks are harvested during the gun  season and AFTER the breeding season, a yearling buck that is removed has likely  already had the opportunity to breed and pass on his genes.

  Second, recent research has shown that the amount  of growth in the first set of antlers in white-tailed males is a poor predictor  of antler growth at maturity. A study conducted over 10 years which followed  hundreds of wild, free-ranging white-tailed bucks from their first set of  antlers found that by the time bucks reached maturity (4.5 years old), there was  no difference in antler measurements between those that had spikes or 3 points  as yearlings compared to those that had 4 or more points as yearlings. This  suggests that spike and 3-point yearlings can grow the same size antlers as  yearling bucks with 4 or more points. All have the capability to produce large  antlers at maturity.

  Third, let us not forget that all deer receive  genes from both their parents. To date, no one has classified the genetic  contribution of a doe to her male fawn’s antler growth. And in Pennsylvania,  there is no harvest selection on adult does. Their removal is “genetically”  random.

 

 

Even if we wanted to alter the genetics of  Pennsylvania’s deer herd, it would be extremely difficult to do.

 

 

 

I know determining the actual date of the  rut

[steve863]

It's easier for most hunters to count points then age a deer by body characteristics. One thing I do know; when you shot a spike or four pointer I guess his genetics don't matter. The deer is dead!

And to the game departments a dead deer is a dead deer.  They need deer shot off, and they could care less what type of headgear the bucks are wearing when they get shot. Genetics and antlers only matter to hunters.  Game departments only pretend to be interested in both to make trophy hunters think they are doing something to grow bigger bucks for them.  Funny how genetics automatically means ANTLERS to hunters.  In humans genetics can mean intelligence, looks, types of personality you might inherit, the type of diseases you might be prone to, many different things.  Who is to say that a 4 1/2 year old scrawny antlered buck doesn't have some better genetic traits than one with huge perfect antlers??  Who the hell really knows?  All hunters care about are the horns, which tells me this interest in deer genetics is nothing more than a self-serving one for hunters.

[nyantler]

It's easier for most hunters to count points then age a deer by body characteristics. One thing I do know; when you shot a spike or four pointer I guess his genetics don't matter. The deer is dead!

And to the game departments a dead deer is a dead deer.  They need deer shot off, and they could care less what type of headgear the bucks are wearing when they get shot. Genetics and antlers only matter to hunters.  Game departments only pretend to be interested in both to make trophy hunters think they are doing something to grow bigger bucks for them.  Funny how genetics automatically means ANTLERS to hunters.  In humans genetics can mean intelligence, looks, types of personality you might inherit, the type of diseases you might be prone to, many different things.  Who is to say that a 4 1/2 year old scrawny antlered buck doesn't have some better genetic traits than one with huge perfect antlers??  Who the hell really knows?  All hunters care about are the horns, which tells me this interest in deer genetics is nothing more than a self-serving one for hunters.

Where do you come up with this crap? Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what he's talking about. If thats your opinion thats fine but none of it has any basis in fact.

[nyantler]

I know the trophy hunting angle is always the first thing to be brought up when talking of AR's... The true reason for AR's is only to establish a better age structure amongst the buck population... Yes... unfortunately it is absolutely true that most hunters only look at all the big antlers that are going to be produced... there always will be more big antlered bucks with well structured age classes of buck.. thats just the bi-product of having more mature bucks.. the fact that most of you hate "trophy hunters" is not a reason to be against having a better age structure in the buck population... or to make up all the things you think you know about how a good AR works...

I can respect the guy who just comes out and says, "I personally don't care about the age structure of the buck herd... I only care about shooting a buck each year so that I can tell everyone how good of a deer hunter I am." at least that guy is being honest.

[steve863]

It's easier for most hunters to count points then age a deer by body characteristics. One thing I do know; when you shot a spike or four pointer I guess his genetics don't matter. The deer is dead!

And to the game departments a dead deer is a dead deer.  They need deer shot off, and they could care less what type of headgear the bucks are wearing when they get shot. Genetics and antlers only matter to hunters.  Game departments only pretend to be interested in both to make trophy hunters think they are doing something to grow bigger bucks for them.  Funny how genetics automatically means ANTLERS to hunters.  In humans genetics can mean intelligence, looks, types of personality you might inherit, the type of diseases you might be prone to, many different things.  Who is to say that a 4 1/2 year old scrawny antlered buck doesn't have some better genetic traits than one with huge perfect antlers??  Who the hell really knows?  All hunters care about are the horns, which tells me this interest in deer genetics is nothing more than a self-serving one for hunters.

Where do you come up with this crap? Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what he's talking about. If thats your opinion thats fine but none of it has any basis in fact.

So go ahead and explain to us why ANTLERS are always the center of discussion when deer genetics are talked about?  Do you know what other undesirable genetic traits that perfect 10 pointer might be passing on to the health of the herd, or does it really matter to you guys as long as the good antler traits are passed?  I may know nothing but you sure as hell won't be able to answer this question with any certainty neither.  LOL

[burmjohn]

It's easier for most hunters to count points then age a deer by body characteristics. One thing I do know; when you shot a spike or four pointer I guess his genetics don't matter. The deer is dead!

And to the game departments a dead deer is a dead deer.  They need deer shot off, and they could care less what type of headgear the bucks are wearing when they get shot. Genetics and antlers only matter to hunters.  Game departments only pretend to be interested in both to make trophy hunters think they are doing something to grow bigger bucks for them.  Funny how genetics automatically means ANTLERS to hunters.  In humans genetics can mean intelligence, looks, types of personality you might inherit, the type of diseases you might be prone to, many different things.  Who is to say that a 4 1/2 year old scrawny antlered buck doesn't have some better genetic traits than one with huge perfect antlers??  Who the hell really knows?  All hunters care about are the horns, which tells me this interest in deer genetics is nothing more than a self-serving one for hunters.

Where do you come up with this crap? Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what he's talking about. If thats your opinion thats fine but none of it has any basis in fact.

So go ahead and explain to us why ANTLERS are always the center of discussion when deer genetics are talked about?  Do you know what other undesirable genetic traits that perfect 10 pointer might be passing on to the health of the herd, or does it really matter to you guys as long as the good antler traits are passed?  I may know nothing but you sure as hell won't be able to answer this question with any certainty neither.  LOL

I'm not speaking for others that support AR, however I can care less about a perfect 10 pointer and the other things you assume those who support AR want. I support AR because I'd like to see those yearlings or at least the majority of them that fall under the AR protection to survive another year and get bigger.  In addition, allowing that yearling to survive increases the opportunity for that deer to survive subsequent years, aging the herd.  Having a solid age structure and balance in a herd effects numerous things such as breading, behavior, and survival.  In addition I'd rather have the opportunity to shoot a 2, 3, 4 year old with a nice amount of meat rather then the 1.5 with 40 pounds of meat - just like 70% of the bucks taken in NY are.

Anyways, antlers are always brought up because that's how NY state decided to implement restrictions.  And Antlers are passed on through genetics, but its not the only factor as you all know, it has to do with nutrition too. So to answer that question, its kind of hard not to talk about Antlers when Antlers are part of deer genetics.

Regarding your game department comments, yes the NYS DEC does care about managing the herd population, however they also care about herd health.  Go ahead and shoot an email off to one of the state's DEC biologists and ask them if all they care about is a dead deer.  If a dead deer is a dead deer then why did they react so quickly to the CWD incidents a few years ago?

If you guys are so against AR's you should be out there petitioning to get rid of the spike law also.

[growalot]

Seeing my other question was ignored let me ask this...Is it not true that when you have a bunch of older class bucks running around ...you have more and deadlier fights?...and the end result being more deaths and long term injuries with in the herd?...and doesn't that also result in more aggressive breeding with does...also causing injury to the doe.....Just asking....my daughter taught at Georgia college and State University....they teach several classes on such things...so I believe studies have been done...have they not?

[Doc]

Seeing my other question was ignored let me ask this...Is it not true that when you have a bunch of older class bucks running around ...you have more and deadlier fights?...and the end result being more deaths and long term injuries with in the herd?...and doesn't that also result in more aggressive breeding with does...also causing injury to the doe.....Just asking....my daughter taught at Georgia college and State University....they teach several classes on such things...so I believe studies have been done...have they not?

The deer I shot this year during gun season is in the attached pictures. It was a mercy killing. My final conclusion is that this poor guy was the victim of one of those "deadlier fights" that you mentioned. I don't believe this guy would have made it through the winter.

I have always wondered about how healthy this sort of thing is for the herd when the buck density gets to the point where they are constantly beating the hell out of each other. yeah it is survival of the fittest, and that is supposed to improve species strength. But what about the ones that come in second on these fights.

I once found a deer skull down in the bottom of a ravine that had a large chunk of antler inbedded in it's skull. So these fatalities are not completely isolated events. Further, the amount of energy expended in these fights can be lethal as well, if not immediately then sometime throughout the winter.

So your question is a good one. Where is the healthy aspect of promoting this kind of enhanced aggression among the buck population?

[nyantler]

It's easier for most hunters to count points then age a deer by body characteristics. One thing I do know; when you shot a spike or four pointer I guess his genetics don't matter. The deer is dead!

And to the game departments a dead deer is a dead deer.  They need deer shot off, and they could care less what type of headgear the bucks are wearing when they get shot. Genetics and antlers only matter to hunters.  Game departments only pretend to be interested in both to make trophy hunters think they are doing something to grow bigger bucks for them.  Funny how genetics automatically means ANTLERS to hunters.  In humans genetics can mean intelligence, looks, types of personality you might inherit, the type of diseases you might be prone to, many different things.  Who is to say that a 4 1/2 year old scrawny antlered buck doesn't have some better genetic traits than one with huge perfect antlers??  Who the hell really knows?  All hunters care about are the horns, which tells me this interest in deer genetics is nothing more than a self-serving one for hunters.

Where do you come up with this crap? Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what he's talking about. If thats your opinion thats fine but none of it has any basis in fact.

So go ahead and explain to us why ANTLERS are always the center of discussion when deer genetics are talked about?  Do you know what other undesirable genetic traits that perfect 10 pointer might be passing on to the health of the herd, or does it really matter to you guys as long as the good antler traits are passed?  I may know nothing but you sure as hell won't be able to answer this question with any certainty neither.  LOL

Antlers are the center of attention because guys like you pass that incorrect information around.and others believe the crap guys like you throw out there ... the dominant buck in the herd is not determined by the size of his rack... deer don't go around comparing each other antlers to see who has the nicest rack and then elect him the dominant buck... the dominant buck will more often than not be the biggest and strongest buck and could very well be the 8-pointer and not the 10 pointer... the only part large antlers have in the mix is that when there is a balanced buck age structure... the older and wiser bucks will be the ones competing for top breeding rights not the yearlings or smaller bucks... and for the most part they are the ones that carry the bigger thicker racks.

The only part of genetics the herd cares about are the capacity for bigger and stronger... survival of the fittest so to speak.... just because hunters care about antlers doesn't mean they have anything to do with genetics... other than they might be an advantage in a buck fight.

You are the perfect example of how hunter use the ignorance of others as there defense against something like AR's or the need for a balanced age structure in bucks. I totally agree that if the motivation for AR's was just to create big antlered bucks to hang on peoples walls then that is the wrong reason to have them.. but whether you like it or not a balanced age structure in the buck population in any herd is much better for the herd.. especially the younger bucks that are suppose to be spending there time and energy building body size so that they can reach their potential as mature bucks... 110 lb bucks are suppose to be breeding themselves to the point of exhaustion... it's hard enough for a mature 160-200 lb buck to make it through a tough winter after a heavy rutting season... when there is a good age structure younger bucks are more submissive and less agressive during breeding season.. allowing them time to grow stronger so that they can someday take their place in line maybe as dominant buck... ARs are the only proven method of bringing a lopsided age structure back into some kind of balance so that can occur.

Now you know something you didn't... so you can stop posting crap and start at least coming up with an argument that is based on actual reality... not some guys notion of what he thinks ought to be reality.

[Meat Hunter]

The below quote is so true older bucks mean younger buck can do more eating and less breeding and more bucks mean earlier breeding so larger healthier fawns going into the winter.  Here is an article that supports the young bucks are eating not breeding the way it is supposed to be when yearling buck protection is implemented.

http://www.eveningtribune.com/features/x1249727649/Are-antler-restrictions-the-wave-of-the-future-in-NYS

"especially the younger bucks that are suppose to be spending there time and energy building body size so that they can reach their potential as mature bucks... 110 lb bucks are suppose to be breeding themselves to the point of exhaustion... it's hard enough for a mature 160-200 lb buck to make it through a tough winter after a heavy rutting season... when there is a good age structure younger bucks are more submissive and less agressive during breeding season.. allowing them time to grow stronger "

[JCTheGC]

Antlers are the center of attention because guys like you pass that incorrect information around.and others believe the crap guys like you throw out there ... the dominant buck in the herd is not determined by the size of his rack... deer don't go around comparing each other antlers to see who has the nicest rack and then elect him the dominant buck... the dominant buck will more often than not be the biggest and strongest buck and could very well be the 8-pointer and not the 10 pointer... the only part large antlers have in the mix is that when there is a balanced buck age structure... the older and wiser bucks will be the ones competing for top breeding rights not the yearlings or smaller bucks... and for the most part they are the ones that carry the bigger thicker racks.

The only part of genetics the herd cares about are the capacity for bigger and stronger... survival of the fittest so to speak.... just because hunters care about antlers doesn't mean they have anything to do with genetics... other than they might be an advantage in a buck fight.

You are the perfect example of how hunter use the ignorance of others as there defense against something like AR's or the need for a balanced age structure in bucks. I totally agree that if the motivation for AR's was just to create big antlered bucks to hang on peoples walls then that is the wrong reason to have them.. but whether you like it or not a balanced age structure in the buck population in any herd is much better for the herd.. especially the younger bucks that are suppose to be spending there time and energy building body size so that they can reach their potential as mature bucks... 110 lb bucks are suppose to be breeding themselves to the point of exhaustion... it's hard enough for a mature 160-200 lb buck to make it through a tough winter after a heavy rutting season... when there is a good age structure younger bucks are more submissive and less agressive during breeding season.. allowing them time to grow stronger so that they can someday take their place in line maybe as dominant buck... ARs are the only proven method of bringing a lopsided age structure back into some kind of balance so that can occur.

Now you know something you didn't... so you can stop posting crap and start at least coming up with an argument that is based on actual reality... not some guys notion of what he thinks ought to be reality.

Could not agree more.

[TheHunter]

Antlers are the center of attention because guys like you pass that incorrect information around.and others believe the crap guys like you throw out there ... the dominant buck in the herd is not determined by the size of his rack... deer don't go around comparing each other antlers to see who has the nicest rack and then elect him the dominant buck... the dominant buck will more often than not be the biggest and strongest buck and could very well be the 8-pointer and not the 10 pointer... the only part large antlers have in the mix is that when there is a balanced buck age structure... the older and wiser bucks will be the ones competing for top breeding rights not the yearlings or smaller bucks... and for the most part they are the ones that carry the bigger thicker racks.

The only part of genetics the herd cares about are the capacity for bigger and stronger... survival of the fittest so to speak.... just because hunters care about antlers doesn't mean they have anything to do with genetics... other than they might be an advantage in a buck fight.

You are the perfect example of how hunter use the ignorance of others as there defense against something like AR's or the need for a balanced age structure in bucks. I totally agree that if the motivation for AR's was just to create big antlered bucks to hang on peoples walls then that is the wrong reason to have them.. but whether you like it or not a balanced age structure in the buck population in any herd is much better for the herd.. especially the younger bucks that are suppose to be spending there time and energy building body size so that they can reach their potential as mature bucks... 110 lb bucks are suppose to be breeding themselves to the point of exhaustion... it's hard enough for a mature 160-200 lb buck to make it through a tough winter after a heavy rutting season... when there is a good age structure younger bucks are more submissive and less agressive during breeding season.. allowing them time to grow stronger so that they can someday take their place in line maybe as dominant buck... ARs are the only proven method of bringing a lopsided age structure back into some kind of balance so that can occur.

Now you know something you didn't... so you can stop posting crap and start at least coming up with an argument that is based on actual reality... not some guys notion of what he thinks ought to be reality.

Could not agree more.

Same here... I hear crickets, Steve? Larry? you two around? Oh nope, thats because NYAntler hit the nail on the head.

[gjs4]

Wonder why regions 8 & 9, where the majority of hunters and deer in the state reside, have never been able to try ARs or let the milk dry on their muzzles before they get killed.

[Larry]

    Maybe  it is  because you can kill deer like this without AR’s. All you have to do is put in  some time and hunt a little smarter. Take a look at Creekwood Archery .com and  see some of the deer taken in there deer contest.

[ejp419]

You can't compare western NY to any other part of the state. I hunt and live in 4S. I know that 4S could use an AR. A 12 to 1 doe to buck ratio isn't healthy. Yes, we get a fluke big deer once in a while but not very often...

[WNYBuckHunter]

Wonder why regions 8 & 9, where the majority of hunters and deer in the state reside, have never been able to try ARs or let the milk dry on their muzzles before they get killed.

Actually Letchworth Park has AR in place and has for a while now. Probably too small of an area to see any effects, good or bad, though.

[burmjohn]

    Maybe  it is  because you can kill deer like this without AR’s. All you have to do is put in  some time and hunt a little smarter. Take a look at Creekwood Archery .com and  see some of the deer taken in there deer contest.

Larry, Yes you can have the opportunity to get a nice mature buck without  AR's if your area has that structure in place.  AR's are clearly not needed in all area's of the state which has been said 1000 times over which you have chosen to ignore along with all the other facts.

[bubba]

please reer to my comments on page 27, Just kidding, it was page 29

[Culvercreek hunt club]

John, you may believe it is not needed statewide. Yet there are still those saying it should be. I can't help but think a lot of guys that want this hope this will give them a mounted behind every tree.

[bubba]

Those who think it should be statewide should hunt every wmu for a while before sending out an opinion based on anything but fact.  I can not help but think that if a lot of you guys hunted where I do, and only see maybe 3 or 4 deer a season would give up.  Yet I am very successful, but I do what I can to keep the deer in the area as well as put in many man hours to be successful.  Real hunting is not like you see on a half hour canned hunt.  We live in a society of instant gratification and most do not want to put in the time to be really successful.  In other words they want a big rack, and not have to work for it. Most complain of they do not see at least that many deer on every trip.  So if you were to put those types if restrictions here, when it takes 3 or 4 years to get a dmp, you may as well say please donate your money and not bother to hunt. Then I get called selfish and greedy because I work my butt off toown a piece of hunting property, and I shut out others who do not have the same opportunities.  Then a majority want to take away parts of the season and make it archery only.  And people wonder why I get upset at the majority of uninformed arm chair quarterbacks.  Try it before you decide it needs to be changed.

[burmjohn]

I can't help but think a lot of guys that want this hope this will give them a mounted behind every tree.

I hope that's not the case, because that is not what it is about.  And from those I've spoken to they all seem pretty knowledgeable about the subject.

[JCTheGC]

    Maybe  it is  because you can kill deer like this without AR’s. All you have to do is put in  some time and hunt a little smarter. Take a look at Creekwood Archery .com and  see some of the deer taken in there deer contest.

Yup, putitng more time in and being smarter... That will fix a f'd up sex ratio and immature deer population. Thanks for all of your insightful posts.