Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[deerinsight]

If you want a good herd you need take does this is a fact proven if you want to see a lot of deer sub standered let the does live and if you would like to see more muter bucks let the young bucks walk and shot the doe just make sure they are do this is a proven managment practice AR is put inplace so that it gives the buck more of achance to muter it also makes the hunter more aware of what he/she is shooting. Doewaker I bet you see some nice bucks each year because of you hunting prictice DOE WAKIN

[Larry]

Doewhacker I think your right on most of what you’re saying.

What I’m trying to say is that when an AR is put in place people assume they are going to be able to kill lots of doe’s and then you will see more bucks that’s just not true and I can prove it. First When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks, Most of them were not practicing QDM and they were not killing off all their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

  What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s(I killed 2 last year); what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

[adk3006]

I think the biggest factor that determines whether to introduce AR and/or doe harvesting depends on the area and the deer population.  I am NOT in favor of AR or doe harvesting because of where I hunt, there  simply aren't many deer.  I hunt in the adirondacks and if you get the opportunity to kill one buck a season, you've done well!  No matter what a buck has for headgear in the Adirondacks.......it's a trophy.  I know of a hunting club in the Adirondacks which is around 14,000 acres that wanted to do QDM so they hired a well known wildlife biologist deer expert???  First thing the guy said was "gotta shoot does".  So they did, and alot of them per the experts orders.  Long story short, there hunting hasn't been worth a crap since then and that was like 15 years ago that this happened and prior to shooting all the does the club actually put of some pretty impressive buck numbers. The club has 100-130 members and last hunting season they shot under 20 bucks.  Prior to shooting all the does they always took 50+ bucks.

[ny hunter]

I hunt in an area where we had AR for the past 4years.Last year I saw no bucks big or small.the last few years I saw some small racks so lets see what this year brings us.It just sucks if you do not get a management tag you do not get any meat.That is the only draw back.

[Doewhacker]

ny hunter, thats why we bow hunt, you can fill a freezer before gun season starts. ;D

Larry I was only speaking of two of our spots, one is over populated and we see no big bucks, the other has way less deer but we see/get big bucks. The over populated area is where all of our does come from, two drastically different hunting spots and two drastically different expectations when we go.

[ny hunter]

Just bought a new bow.Been shooting for a few months.Hope to do just that.Thanks.

[Doc]

Of course another thing that enters into the equation is the realization of just where your future crop of bucks comes from. This idea of just arbitrarily whacking out the doe population is another over-simplification that really does not reflect an understanding of the original concept. It kind of stands to reason that you have to take into consideration deer density in relationship to food and habitat. Doe numbers do absolutely no harm to the buck population if there is more food available than the existing herd numbers need and nothing is gained by mounting a campaign to arbitrarily try to decimate the doe herd ..... other than to shut off the source of future bucks. If you have an area that is already hurting for deer population of any sort, It would be kind of counter-productive to start a campaign of whacking does. Further more, that kind of judgement is an ever-green decision-making process because deer densities as well as habitat are never static.

That's why I hate it when people just lay out blanket statements on any facet of deer management. It's like the people who call for across the board, statewide, AR. They are standing in their own tiny hunting areas and assuming that everything that they see is exactly the same throughout all of the state. Thank heavens those are not the people making the management decisions in NY.

Doc

[Larry]

hey Doc you are right target with that post

[Doewhacker]

Thats was my point Doc, every area is vastly different and basically we are slightly behind the curve no matter what we do, to many deer killed not enough... it is VERY difficult to achieve a balanced herd.

[Doc]

When it comes to doe harvests, the state does it's best to tailor antlerless permits to local populations. We may argue that they don't always do too good a job at that ...... lol, but give them credit for at least recognizing the different needs required for different localities and conditions. My point is that when we discuss AR, that same attempt to tailor management to reflect herd conditions and habitat, applies just as much. So when I hear people saying that they would like to see AR implemented across the state (and it's amazing how often you hear that), my blood pressure starts to rise just a bit. And when I hear people saying that the key to herd balance and improving the health of the herd everywhere is simply to slaughter does, I get just as impatient with the short-sighted quick and easy answers. None of that stuff is as simple as many arm-chair game managers would like us to believe.

But I suppose it would be best if I were to just chill out a bit. Short sighted, quick and easy, one-size-fits-all answers and causes seem to be what sticks in the minds of hunters. No point in getting too excited about it ..... lol. It's always going to be that way.

Doc

[Landowner]

I live in Orange county. On my land I have been doing this for more than 6 years. Between this and my food plots I have seen a great inprovment.

landowner

[erussell]

Crossbows are in, AR is just around the corner. Oh yeah and an early muzzleloader season to boot  ???

[WNYBuckHunter]

Theres no early ML season and AR was not expanded at all.

[burmjohn]

Yeah I didnt read anything about early ML?

[ny hunter]

Thanks my brother in law swears we are getting an early season.As always he talks to hear him self.  Thanks guys.

[burmjohn]

Northern zone has one, not southern.  So nothing has changed.

[ny hunter]

I thought so.Just checking Thanks guys.

[Doc]

A semi-interesting article on AR showed up in the latest issue of New York Outdoor News. The article was written by Oak Duke. Unfortunately I thought it was a bit short on details and references, but maybe the more interesting results of the article will be the future letters from the readers regarding this article ..... lol. I do wish he had provided some access info to the studies he referred to. It was basically an anti-AR article and some of you might find it interesting.

Doc

[rock]

i would love to see ar in broome county

[bpb]

Artificial food plots do not make for a big rack or deer. It the genetics that create the deer.

The program is ok for private propery owners who want to play around. Then again all of the people who run around planting an artificial food base in the middle of the woods aren't even scratching the surface of a real AR/QDM based program.

  Those big racks the QDM people parade in front of you are developed through years of scientific gene research in a lab.

 

[Larry]

If you want to see bigger bucks all you need to do is keep the deer population at about 80% of capacity and keep the buck to doe ratio at about 3 doe’s to every buck and you don’t have to let every small buck walk  just most of them. Also some habitat improvement helps. It is that simple

[wztirem]

If at was that simple there would be no reason to belabor the point of whether or not AR is or is not necessary. As diverse as the habitat is in NY, AR may be necessary in some DMU's but not state wide. As it stands right now, it is a personal choice. The DEC sees no need to expand the program,after all they encourage hunters to kill as many deer as their tags will allow.

[Larry]

Here is another take on AR's.  let us look at some facts. One: Over 80% of the land in this state is in privet hands. That means the land owners have to pay the ever-increasing taxes on the land they own. Therefore, what you have to ask do I have the right to tell someone how he or she can hunt on his or her land; as long as the way the rules are now written, they are doing nothing illegal.

Two: Let us look at the BUCK take for the last 5 years. The buck take has been increasing for the last 5 years and the percentage of 1.5 year olds has remained the same. This would suggest that not everyone who claims they are practicing in QDM is doing so. The data seems to say there is not a lot of support for AR’s in the state. If there were a lot of support for AR’s you would see a reduction in the buck harvest coming out of the percentage of 1.5 year olds taken and that is not happening.  The data was taken from the DEC annual harvest reports. I know what you are going to say the DECs data is not right. What I will tell you is unless you have state wide harvest data that you can prove is right then you have no proof there data is wrong, and if the DECs data is wrong whose fault is it when only 45% of us report are kills. This means the DEC has to use modeling to get a harvest number.

[Doc]

Here is another take on AR's.  let us look at some facts. One: Over 80% of the land in this state is in privet hands. That means the land owners have to pay the ever-increasing taxes on the land they own. Therefore, what you have to ask do I have the right to tell someone how he or she can hunt on his or her land; as long as the way the rules are now written, they are doing nothing illegal.

Two: Let us look at the BUCK take for the last 5 years. The buck take has been increasing for the last 5 years and the percentage of 1.5 year olds has remained the same. This would suggest that not everyone who claims they are practicing in QDM is doing so. The data seems to say there is not a lot of support for AR’s in the state. If there were a lot of support for AR’s you would see a reduction in the buck harvest coming out of the percentage of 1.5 year olds taken and that is not happening.  The data was taken from the DEC annual harvest reports. I know what you are going to say the DECs data is not right. What I will tell you is unless you have state wide harvest data that you can prove is right then you have no proof there data is wrong, and if the DECs data is wrong whose fault is it when only 45% of us report are kills. This means the DEC has to use modeling to get a harvest number.

Larry-

I am not a big fan of AR, but the question you had about whether or not we can tell taxpaying landowners how to hunt on their own land has been answered years ago when the 3" antler rule was established and the seasons, and all the other regulations. Should we be adding to those restrictions? ..... Well that's another issue. I don't believe we should unless there is one huge, important, well documented and scientifically proven reason that involves the health and perpetuation of the species. I'm not sure the AR crowd has met that standard yet.

Your second point about how strong the convictions are of the QDM and AR proponents is a valid one ...... I think. I believe there is a huge difference between answering some kind of poll vs. the decisions we make out in the field when the deer steps out into the clear. I think also it is a lot easier to stand up for a concept as long as it is just a concept than it is when it is an actual law. Another thing is, just who is going to sit around with a bunch of other hunters and start preaching for killing 1.5 year old deer? So there may be a lot of hunters who are just saying what they believe their peers want to hear. So if the harvests don't reflect what we hear from hunters, I guess I'm not surprised. It kind of makes sense.

Doc

[Buckstopshere]

Hi Doc: Well, I hate to say it, but I think we should shoot more 1.5 year old deer, at least around here in Allegany County. At least in the southern part, where I hunt, we are overrun with little bucks. I think, that if we really want to get bigger bucks here...then we should have slot limits like they do in some lakes for some species of fish.

Shoot the little guys and enjoy the venison. But if it is a 2.5 year old eight point, or a precocious 1.5 year old eight point, let him walk. But if it is a spike or a three-point, have at it.

And of course...trophy animals would be fair game. That way we would see a lot more big bucks...but guys would have to lay off pulling the trigger or releasing the arrow on a small eight point.

But in one year...or two...if it was possible to implement, we would have some real brag deer!

They wouldn't taste any better though.

I also like the idea of more guys shooting a small spike or fork and getting out of the woods, they are happy, their family is happy, they will be back. And they leave the woods for the rest of us who are after something different.

I think AR's as it is presently conceived has it exactly backass-wards.

AR proponents say shoot the little 2.5 year old with six or eight points, no matter if it will be a great deer in the future or a mediocre old guy.

Thanks of the comments on my column (Oak Duke on AR.) I am held to only about 750 words, so I don't have space for a bibliography, or citing specific research articles.

But I will cite them if you want. (They are from Mississippi and Texas.)